Once saved, always saved?

bling · Aug 21, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
If our decision is for Satan, why is that? It is because we are under Satan's power.

John 3
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Romans 6
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

If our decision is for Christ, it is because we are controlled (nasty word?) by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

The believer is controlled and the unbeliever is controlled. Why does that upset people? If we are controlled by the Spirit, we are set free from the powers of darkness. Christ makes us free!

We give up our birthright of eternal life like Esau gave up his birthright, because we quit placing value on the birth right due to being caught up in the perceived pleasures of sin.
We are slaves to satan, but we do not owe satan anything so we can walk away. We own God a lot but like the prodigal son He will not holds us back.
What is upsetting about being forced to Love others and God is that is robotic type love and not Godly type Love. Would you prefer to be loved by someone or something that was programmed to love you, or Loved by someone that had other likely alternatives, but choose to Love you in spite of your looks or actions, because that is who they are.
We are free will agents, because to obtain and truly possess Godly type Love it has to be by choice or it is not Godly type Love (Love your enemies.)

bling · Aug 21, 2010

RufustheRed said:
The Bible says that it is God's (or the Lord's) will that ALL should be saved, (II Peter 2:9). If it is the Lord's will then how can our will superimpose God's. You say that God has the power to do whatever He wants (not exactly true, is it?) and the scripture states that He wants no one to perish. So where does "free will" enter into this equation?

Actually, the term "free will" is a oxymoron, but that's for another post.

Rufus

God has the power to do anything he wants but He has the Love that controls His power to do what is best needed for those willing to accept His Love. God will save all (where all is the entire group of believers that Peter is addressing) and God has provided a way for all to be saved (His will). All does not always mean every person that has ever lived, but can mean most of a group; like all have been baptized with Johns baptism does not include Pharisees and Gentiles or even everyone in the masses.
Gods want is not always met, because He quenched His own desires to allow the most help for willing individuals. The father in the prodigal son story had the power to bring the son back and did not want him to go away, but wanted the son to learn and decide to return on his own.

Rescued One · Aug 21, 2010

bling said:
We give up our birthright of eternal life like Esau gave up his birthright, because we quit placing value on the birth right due to being caught up in the perceived pleasures of sin.

That is based on the assumptions that (1) the believer's heart was never changed, (2) the person did not love him who first loved us, (3) the Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep decided to let the sheep come to harm, (4) God lied when he told us that faith gives us the victory, and/or (5)that the purchase of our souls was not of great value to the Redeemer.

bling said:
We are slaves to satan, but we do not owe satan anything so we can walk away. We own God a lot but like the prodigal son He will not holds us back.

Believers are NOT slaves to Satan.

Believers will NOT spend eternity in hell. If they wander, the Holy Spirit will prick their consciences and they WILL come back.

bling said:
What is upsetting about being forced to Love others and God is that is robotic type love and not Godly type Love. Would you prefer to be loved by someone or something that was programmed to love you, or Loved by someone that had other likely alternatives, but choose to Love you in spite of your looks or actions, because that is who they are.

I have no problem with changed hearts! They are LOVABLE, WONDERFUL, FANTASTIC works of the Potter who fashioned them.

Man is naturally a sinner and supernaturally a saint.

I Corinthians 15
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Rescued One · Aug 21, 2010

skylark1 said:
It is your opinion that there is no faith prior to the new birth. Not all Christians hold this opinion. I don't think that we can come to Christ without faith. The moment one receives Christ by faith, he is born again. But one is not born again apart from faith.

That whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:15

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:47

Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. Acts 16:29-31

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. John 1:12

.

Faith in Christ is part of regeneration/new birth. One cannot receive Christ without regeneration. One cannot have faith without regeneration.

I Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

skylark1 · Aug 21, 2010

RufustheRed said:
Skylark,

Please accept my sincere and most humble apologies. I was not trying in any way to mock you. I am so sorry that you feel that it came across that way. I would hope that you know, after all of these years, that I do not mock people's beliefs. Many, MANY years ago, when I was stationed in Washington, DC, I remember hearing someone on the radio say that shake and bake thing. I thought that it was funny then and evidently, still do, else I wouldn't have remembered it for 25+ years.

For the record, I am NOT a Calvinist, I am a Christian who tends to lean toward the Arminian side of the argument. However, there are several compelling arguments for the Calvinist side, also.

Part of what I used to struggle with (note:"used to struggle with") is that somehow God cannot saves us unless we say some "sinner's prayer" or something like that. You know, "Say the prayer and you are saved." That simple. Only is isn't THAT simple, is it? That is why I call it "shake and bake" salvation. Jesus knocks on the door of my heart (God's invitation); I open the door (my part of the job) and let him in. Viola - I am saved and I helped because I opened the door. IF I hadn't opened the door, Jesus would have left and I would have remained a lost soul, condemned to eternity in hell because I decided NOT to help Jesus Christ out by opening the door of my heart.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I was tempted to start a poll.

How many Calvinists believe that Arminians are not saved (implication: going to hell) because they adhere to the teachings of James Arminius?

How many Arminians believe that Calvinists are not saved (implication: going to hell) because they adhere to Jean Calvin's teachings?

What if either one of these theologian's writings carry the weight of presenting the gospel in such a fashion that to deny their message would mean NOT spending eternity with God?

I finally realized that the writings of Paul, James, Peter, John, Luke, et. al. were the texts that I must learn. That is not to say that Calvin or Arminius weren't good students of God's Word, it is just that they don't carry the weight as the Biblical authors. That is why I said that I "used to struggle" with these issues. Issues of OSAS or presuppositional determinism or any other man made theology/philosophy do not usurp much of time anymore.

Again, please accept my apologies. I, in no way, intend to offend you and have always considered you one of my "forum friends."

Rufus

Thanks for the apology.

I don't think that openng the door is helping to save one's self. We are saved by grace, and salvation is a gift. Opening the door to accept Christ is not helping to save one's self, rather it is acceptance of the gift that He offers and acknowledgment that He is the Messiah and Lord. Besides, the idea of Jesus standing at the door and knocking, waiting for us to anser his call is scriptural.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

skylark1 · Aug 21, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
Faith in Christ is part of regeneration/new birth. One cannot receive Christ without regeneration. One cannot have faith without regeneration.

When the Philippian jailer asked what he needed to do to be saved, he was told to believe and he would be saved. Belief (faith) preceded regeneration. It didn't come afterwards.

The following verse also demonstrates that faith precedes regeneration.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. John 1:12

I agree with what tbonnney wrote. It is the grace of God and conviction of the Holy Spirit, not regeneration, that precedes our acceptance of Him.

Rescued One · Aug 21, 2010

tbonney said:
I think you are conflating the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God with regeneration. It doesn't make sense to say that one cannot have faith without regeneration otherwise you are basically saying no one can be saved unless he is saved already.

What do you mean when you say that no one can be saved unless he is saved already?

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14

NOT:
And you shall know that I am the LORD; then I will put my Spirit within you.

tbonney said:
The grace of God comes first to give us the way and the desire to experience justification. God's grace is working on us before we accept him.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."
1 John 5:1

IOW, whoever has faith is saved.

tbonney said:
Short of tossing out Hebrews I personally just don't know how the possibility of apostasy can be denied given that the writer of Hebrews talks extensively about the consequences of falling away. Why talk about if it isn't possible? It would be a wasted discussion.

If the early church didn't believe in the possibility of apostasy then they could have left Hebrews out of the canon. But the church didn't.

Hebrews 6
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

If Christ truly purchased a person's soul, and that person fell into apostasy, then why did Christ bother to purchase that soul and then choose to let said person fall from grace? Is His grace truly given without cost or is there a payment expected of the believer?

Why is Christ said to be the Good Shepherd if He can't or won't save His sheep?

Does Christ always care about those whom the Father gave to Him?

John 6:38-40

John 10:28-29

Romans 8:28-39

Philippians 1:4-6

Philippians 2:12-13

1 John 2:19

How can a good shepherd disregard the safety of his sheep?

Hebrews 8
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

So don't go back to trusting in the Law to save! Only Christ can save and that salvation is not something that we help Him do for us! Do you believe that we must do something in addition to what Jesus did to remain justified?

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rescued One · Aug 21, 2010

skylark1 said:
When the Philippian jailer asked what he needed to do to be saved, he was told to believe and he would be saved. Belief (faith) preceded regeneration. It didn't come afterwards.

The natural man doesn't care about salvation. He is dead. Please see Ephesians 2:1.

You have not demonstrated that faith precedes salvation rather than accompanies it.

skylark1 said:
The following verse also demonstrates that faith precedes regeneration.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. John 1:12

Only the regenerated person receives Him. The natural/dead person doesn't care about receiving Him.

skylark1 said:
I agree with what tbonnney wrote. It is the grace of God and conviction of the Holy Spirit, not regeneration, that precedes our acceptance of Him.

Well, with all due respect, the Bible doesn't say that faith precedes the new birth.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.

skylark1 · Aug 21, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
The natural man doesn't care about salvation. He is dead. Please see Ephesians 2:1.

That is why the grace of God precedes belief.

You have not demonstrated that faith precedes salvation rather than accompanies it.

What I wrote was that faith preceded regeneration, not that it preceded salvation. I think that I have provided verses that demonstrate this. Although it might be better to speak of faith preceding justification.

Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Romans 5
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Only the regenerated person receives Him. The natural/dead person doesn't care about receiving Him.

You are certainly free to believe this if you wish. However, there are many Christians who would disagree.

Well, with all due respect, the Bible doesn't say that faith precedes the new birth.

It does speak of believing and then being saved. It does speak of being justified through faith.

Romans 3
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.

I agree.

Ephesians 1
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

bling · Aug 25, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:

That is based on the assumptions that (1) the believer's heart was never changed, (2) the person did not love him who first loved us, (3) the Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep decided to let the sheep come to harm, (4) God lied when he told us that faith gives us the victory, and/or (5)that the purchase of our souls was not of great value to the Redeemer.

1. The assumption is the believer can allow God to change his heart and the believer can allow satan to change his heart back.[/
2. We can Love with Godly type Love, but over time if we do not use that love and allow it to grow it can wither away slowly, until we do not care about it.
3. The shepherd story is part of the story and so is the prodigal son.
4. Love, but if we try and go forth with knowledge on our own we will fail. We have to trust (faith), but we do not always trust God.[/
5. The actual value is huge and a huge price was paid, but if we stop reminding ourselves of that value (communion, praying, serving others, meditation, fasting and worshipping) and fell our lives with worthless items we can forget what was paid.

Phoebe Ann said:
Believers are NOT slaves to Satan.

Believers will NOT spend eternity in hell. If they wander, the Holy Spirit will prick their consciences and they WILL come back.

Demons/satan believe and tremble. Believers have to continue to trust Gods love. We can be pricked and by our own free will chose to ignore.

Phoebe Ann said:
I have no problem with changed hearts! They are LOVABLE, WONDERFUL, FANTASTIC works of the Potter who fashioned them.

Man is naturally a sinner and supernaturally a saint.

I Corinthians 15

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.[/

Man has naturally been made by God into many different vessels, but all have sinned and all are in need of a savior. Man has to chose to allow God to Love him and accept Gods Love.

Rescued One · Aug 30, 2010

bling said:
1. The assumption is the believer can allow God to change his heart and the believer can allow satan to change his heart back.[/
2. We can Love with Godly type Love, but over time if we do not use that love and allow it to grow it can wither away slowly, until we do not care about it.
3. The shepherd story is part of the story and so is the prodigal son.
4. Love, but if we try and go forth with knowledge on our own we will fail. We have to trust (faith), but we do not always trust God.[/
5. The actual value is huge and a huge price was paid, but if we stop reminding ourselves of that value (communion, praying, serving others, meditation, fasting and worshipping) and fell our lives with worthless items we can forget what was paid.

Demons/satan believe and tremble. Believers have to continue to trust Gods love. We can be pricked and by our own free will chose to ignore.

Man has naturally been made by God into many different vessels, but all have sinned and all are in need of a savior. Man has to chose to allow God to Love him and accept Gods Love.

The Bereans searched the word of God to see if the message they were given was true. A depraved man doesn't care about the things of God. He needs to be delivered from Satan's power.

Before the new birth, we were all by nature children of wrath.

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Ephesians 2:3

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
1 Corinthians 2:1

hybrid · Aug 30, 2010

to work out one's salvation is to make certain the assurance that one as always saved is already the case. doh.

hybrid · Aug 30, 2010

tbonney said:
I think part of the above sentence must be missing.

feel free to fill up the missing part

Gareth · Aug 31, 2010

If Not For Grace said:
Phoebe Ann said:

If Christ actually saved a person, is it a temporary gift? Or is not a gift at all, but something a person must be worthy of? If a person is saved, is he following Satan or Christ? Is the person turned from darkness to light or is he still walking in darkness? If he is still walking in darkness and claims to be saved, how can we accept what he claims?
quote]

But can one not "return" for lack of a better word the gift-What about Saul? (King David's Father-in-Law) was he not once saved (annointed) & then Lost? Or even Judas Iscariot?

(Am honestly asking) I do not believe Salvation is earned in any way-but can a person not simply revert to unbelief and thus lose Salvation?

Click to expand...

Simply put, the answer is yes. A person who was once a follower of Christ could lose their salvation if they became or their actions showed they had become an unbeliever. Judas Iscariot falls into this category, as do any who know what the true religion is and deliberately turn their back on it and then seek to do it harm as Judas did and others have done so. God's undeserved kindness as shown in the blood shed by the Christ is something that is mentioned often in the Scriptures. It is this undeserved kindness that leads the faithful to salvation, as long as we all play our part in not bringing ourselves into disrepute with God.

hybrid · Aug 31, 2010

tbonney said:
Not sure what you meant so I don't know what to fix. "the assurance one as"??

every believer supposedly should know that he/she is saved.
this as the assurance that one is saved.

as long as this certainty in not present in the believer's heart, hiser should work it out towards this assurance.

Are you defending "once saved always saved"? Are you saying that "work out your own salvation" doesn't actually mean that but something else?

I'm stumped.

what ever activities are done to work out one's salvation, it must always culminates to the deeper knowledge of our lord and savior jesus chrsit.

the virtue of being one with Christ is the foretaste of the divine nature you shared with god. god's nature is timeless and eternal. (it transcends our usual commonsense perception of time as a flow) . so once save is always saved is an experience of timelessness of the soul. it is more than a doctrine.

redleghunter · Jul 1, 2018

woden said:
This idea is popular among some faiths, but is it really the case? For starters, to be saved involves what? To accept Jesus and all that entails. What he did for us (all of mankind) in coming to do his Father's will and to the point of sacrificing his life for us. Most Christians would accept this.

However, some schools of thought will suggest that once we have been `saved` we are always in this condition. Does this mean, then, that we can use our free will to do what we like, without consequences, and still retain the favour of God and His Son?

How would you answer and what are your thoughts?

Much of this is caused by the evangelism of Decisional Regeneration. Come up sign the card and all is good.

https://www.gotquestions.org/decisional-regeneration.html

ubicaritas · Jul 1, 2018

woden said:
This idea is popular among some faiths, but is it really the case? For starters, to be saved involves what? To accept Jesus and all that entails. What he did for us (all of mankind) in coming to do his Father's will and to the point of sacrificing his life for us. Most Christians would accept this.

However, some schools of thought will suggest that once we have been `saved` we are always in this condition. Does this mean, then, that we can use our free will to do what we like, without consequences, and still retain the favour of God and His Son?

How would you answer and what are your thoughts?

God begins a new work in us, a supernatural work of grace. We still are sinners and do sin, but the new obedience is planted in us. We do not obey perfectly but we have good fruit, though this is not always obviously apparent.

We are not saved by obedience and individual sins do not separate us from God. Rejection of God separates us from God.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 9, 2018

steve4.truth said:
This is my compilation of scriptures that I made 9 years ago when I changed from believing eternal security. Sorry it's so long, but it was the shear volume of "problem" passages that convinced me that I need to look deeper.

The Doctrine of Hope

The Fear of the Lord

Discipleship

A Christian can stop believing: Gal. 1:6 I Tim. 1:18-20; 4:1-3; 5:8; 6:20,21 II Tim. 2:12,17-19 Heb. 3:12-15; 10:38,39 Jms. 5:19,20 II Pet.3:17
Problem passages (faith+works): Mt. 5:13; 10:22,32,37-39; 16:24-28
Lk. 8:12-15 Jn. 13:8 cf. Eph. 5:26; Jn. 15:1-6 Rom. 11:20-22; 13:11 I Cor. 3:11-17; 5:5; 9:24-27; 15:1,2 II Cor. 12:19-13:6 Gal. 5:1-4,21 Phil. 2:12 Col. 1:22-23, 2:18 II Thess. 1:11 I Tim. 4:16, II Tim. 2:10-13 Heb. 2:1-3; 4:1; 5:8,9; 6:4-8; 10:26-39 Jms. 1:12-15; 4:4-6; 5:19,20 I Pet. 1:8,9,17, II Pet. 1:9-11 I Jn. 2:24,28 II Jn. 8,9 Rev. 2:10,11,17,26-28; 3:4, 5,11,12,16-21.
Grace (favor) with God based on our merit in these contexts: Lk. 6:32-36 (transl. creditNIV or thank KJV) Gal. 5:4 Heb.12:15 Jms. 4:6 I Pet. 2:19,20 (transl. commendable NIV or thankworthy and acceptable KJV) ;5:5 II Pet. 3:18
We must keep on believing (present tense of the Gr. Verb) to receive any blessings from God: Jn. 1:12; 3:15-18,36; 5:24; 6:35-37,40,47; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:46; 20:31 Acts 10:43; 13:39 Rom. 1:16; 3:22; 4:5, 24; 9:33; 10:4,10,11 I Cor. 1:21 Gal. 3:22 I Tim. 1:16 I Pet. 2:6 I Jn. 5:1,5,10,13 (KJV)
A believers future salvation based on faith plus works: Mt. 10:22; 19:25; 24:13 Mk. 8:35; 10:26; 13:13 Lk. 9:24; 13:23-30; 18:26 Rom. 10:10; 13:11-14 II Cor. 1:6; 6:1,2; 7:10 Phil. 1:27-30; 2:12 II Thess. 2:13 I Tim. 2:15; 4:16 II Tim. 2:10; 3:15,16 Heb. 1:14; 2:3,10; 5:9; 6:9 Jms. 1:21; 2:14; 4:11,12; 5:20
Status as firstborn sons of God conditioned on works: Mt. 5:9,44,45 Lk. 20:34-36 Rom. 8:14-23 Heb. 2:10; 12:14-17 [Reuben: Gen. 49:3-4 Deut. 33:6 I Chron. 5:1] Rev. 21:7
Eternal Life as a prize in these contextsobtained by good works: Mt. 19:16-21,29 Mk. 10:17-21,30 Lk. 10:25-28; 18:18-22,30 Jn. 12:25,26 Rom. 2:7; 6:22 Gal. 6:8 I Tim. 6:12,19 I Jn. 3:14,15 Jude 20,21
The possibility of believers spending their eternal life on earth: Jer. 17:13 Rom. 8:21 I Cor. 15:38-41 Eph. 1:10 Nations prophesied in the O.T. as living on the earth (Isa. 14:1,2; 60:10 etc.) are partly made up of Gentile believers today: Mt. 21:43 Rom. 4:11-13,17; 10:19 Gal. 3:8 Rev. 2:26; 21:24-27
The first Resurrection is a prize to be worked for: Lk. 20:34-36 Jn. 5:28,29 Acts 24:15,16 Phil. 3:7-16 Heb. 11:35 Rev. 20:5,6
Glorification of Believers conditional on works: Mk. 10:37-40 Lk. 9:31 Rom. 2:7,10; 5:2; 8:17-21; 9:23 I Cor. 2:7; 15:40-43 II Cor. 3:18; 4:17,18 Eph. 1:18; 3:13 Col. 1:27-29 I Thess. 2:12 II Thess. 2:13-15 II Tim. 2:10 Heb. 2:9,10 I Pet. 1:6,7; 4:12-14; 5:4,10
Marriage supper of the Lamb is only for those who are pure: Mt. 22:1-14; 25: 1-13 Eph. 5:25-32 Rev. 19:7-9
Book of Life: Ex. 32:32,33 Dan. 12:1 Lk. 10:20 Phil. 4:3 Heb. 12:23 Rev. 3:5; 20:15; 21:27; 22:19 (KJV)
The Kingdom of Heaven, the New Jerusalemby faith plus works: enter the Kingdom of Heaven: Mt. 5:20; 7:21; 18:3; 19:17b,23,24 Mk. 9:47 Lk. 18:24,25 Jn. 3:5 Acts 14:22
inherit the Kingdom of Heaven: I Cor. 6:8-11 Gal. 5:21 Eph. 5:5
New Jerusalem: Rev. 22:1-6 cf. overcomer in Rev. 2,3 Heb. 11:10, 14-16; 12:22-28 13:14
general references: Matt. 5:3-10 Lk. 6:20-26; 9:62; 12:31 II Thess. 1:4,5 Heb. 3:7-4:13 II Pet. 1:10,11; 3:13,14 Rev. 3:12; 19:14 (white robes = good works); 21:7; 22:14,15,19
Judgment on Believers: Mt. 16:27 Lk. 6:37; 12:41-48; 19:11-27 Rom. 2:1; 8:1; 13:2,4; 14:10-13,22,23 I Cor. 4:1-5; 11:27-34 II Cor. 5:9-11 Col. 3:24,25 I Tim. 3:6 Heb.10:26-39 Jms. 2:12,13; 3:1; 5:9,12 Rev. 2:23; 22:12
The last state worse than the first: Mt. 12:43-45 Lk. 11:24-26 Heb. 10:27-29 II Pet. 2:20-22
Possibility of the Spirit being extinguished (quenched): Jdgs. 14:19 cf. 16:20 I Sam. 16:14 Ps. 51:11 Rom. 8:9 I Thess. 5:19 I Jn. 3:24; 4:12,13 Jude 19
Death for Believers: Mt. 16:25;18:6 Rom. 6:16; 8:6,13 II Cor. 7:10 Gal. 6:8 Heb. 10:28,29 Jms. 1:15; 5:20 I Jn. 3:14; 5:16,17 Rev. 2:10,11; 20:6,13 cf. 3:5 In these verses, same Greek word used in Jn. 3:16 perish show that a believer can perish: Mt. 10:28 (translated destroy), 39 (lose) Rom. 14:15 (destroy) I Cor. 8:11; 10:9,10 (destroyed) Jude 5 (destroyed), 11.
Punishment of Believers: Mt. 18:34,35; 24:51; 25:30 Lk. 12:42-48 I Cor. 3:17; 10:1-12; 11:27-34 Phil. 3:18,19 I Tim. 6:9-11 Heb. 10:26-39 Jms. 4:12 II Pet. 2:1-22; 3:9,16 Gehenna: Isa. 66:24 Jer. 7:30-33; 19:6-13 Mt. 5:22-30; 10:28; 18:1-9; 23:15,33 Mk. 9:42-50 Lk. 12:1,4-9 Jms. 3:6

Great post.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2018

steve4.truth said:
The difference is that I have a logical answer for all those verses. I agree that God has made the first step in drawing men to Him. Man alienated from God is unable to come to God without that initial help from God and subsequent power from the Holy Spirit. It is only in God's power that one can have any type of relationship with God.

On the other hand, I have always noticed in this thread and among pastors when I was growing up, those who believe in eternal security don't even try to give a logical explanation of the "difficult passages". They are quick to assert what it does NOT mean, but have no logical alternative understanding that fits the context. Any belief we have must harmonize with the WHOLE Bible.

Changing over cost me dearly as I was a missionary at the time and was almost expelled from the country as a result of changing my beliefs about eternal security. I lost my house, my position in the churches and many friends. But after closely examining each "difficult verse" in context, I could not HONESTLY hold on to that belief.

I am proud you made a stand for the truth, my brother.
I can imagine it was not easy.

God bless you, brother.

zoidar · Jul 10, 2018

steve4.truth said:
The difference is that I have a logical answer for all those verses. I agree that God has made the first step in drawing men to Him. Man alienated from God is unable to come to God without that initial help from God and subsequent power from the Holy Spirit. It is only in God's power that one can have any type of relationship with God.

On the other hand, I have always noticed in this thread and among pastors when I was growing up, those who believe in eternal security don't even try to give a logical explanation of the "difficult passages". They are quick to assert what it does NOT mean, but have no logical alternative understanding that fits the context. Any belief we have must harmonize with the WHOLE Bible.

Changing over cost me dearly as I was a missionary at the time and was almost expelled from the country as a result of changing my beliefs about eternal security. I lost my house, my position in the churches and many friends. But after closely examining each "difficult verse" in context, I could not HONESTLY hold on to that belief.

Wow! That was very encouraging, your will to hold to the truth no matter what. I understand how this time must have been for you.

Luke 18:29-30
And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

... Don't tell me I replied to a post from 2010 ??? ^_^

Once saved, always saved?

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