Tongues, a different view.

1stcenturylady · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
We do not have scripture showing more than one gift of tongues.

Oh but we do. Mark 16:17 is the sign of tongues and is described in 1 Corinthians 14. It is our prayer and praise language. And in1 Corinthians 12:10 is the gift of diverse kinds of tongues, also described in 1 Corinthians 14 and compared to our stand alone prayer and praise language.

Dave L said:
But the same gift of Tongues allowed for prayer and became a sign to the unrepentant Jews of looming judgement. And everything in between.

1 Corinthians 14:21 is not about speaking in tongues, but about judgment. Paul uses a verse not only about judgment to get across his type of sign, but a verse that includes foreign language. Here is the actual verse from our Bible.

Jeremiah 5:15 “Behold, I am bringing a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,” declares the Lord. “It is an enduring nation, It is an ancient nation, A nation whose language you do not know, Nor can you understand what they say."

So then, how is tongues a sign to the unbeliever? In type. Verse 21 shows that it is a negative sign of judgment, and not a positive sign, but in no way was it just meant to the Jews. After all, Paul is talking to the Corinthians - Greeks. And verse 23 further clarifies that all speaking together in tongues brings about confusion and ridicule.This was describing our prayer language that does not require interpretation, so would remain confusing if all spoke together without interpretation. Only the gift of diverse kinds of tongues requires interpretation, as they are FROM God, whereas our prayers are TO God.

There is one other place in the New Testament where this type of sign is shown. Luke 2:34 is the sign of Jesus. He was for the fall and rise of many in Israel. And "a sign which will be spoken against." Luke 2:35 shows "that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed," just as 1 Corinthians 14:25 says the same thing, "the secrets of his heart are revealed." This shows that they are the same type of sign. Some believe it is positive and site the Day of Pentecost. Not so. It is meant to be a blessing, but is two-edged, and many will mock tongues - and that sign is still in effect today bringing with it judgment, and the true nature of their hearts are revealed.

Dave L · Jul 10, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Oh but we do. Mark 16:17 is the sign of tongues and is described in 1 Corinthians 14. It is our prayer and praise language. And in1 Corinthians 12:10 is the gift of diverse kinds of tongues, also described in 1 Corinthians 14 and compared to our stand alone prayer and praise language.

1 Corinthians 14:21 is not about speaking in tongues, but about judgment. Paul uses a verse not only about judgment to get across his type of sign, but a verse that includes foreign language. Here is the actual verse from our Bible.

Jeremiah 5:15 “Behold, I am bringing a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,” declares the Lord. “It is an enduring nation, It is an ancient nation, A nation whose language you do not know, Nor can you understand what they say."

So then, how is tongues a sign to the unbeliever? In type. Verse 21 shows that it is a negative sign of judgment, and not a positive sign, but in no way was it just meant to the Jews. After all, Paul is talking to the Corinthians - Greeks. And verse 23 further clarifies that all speaking together in tongues brings about confusion and ridicule.This was describing our prayer language that does not require interpretation, so would remain confusing if all spoke together without interpretation. Only the gift of diverse kinds of tongues requires interpretation, as they are FROM God, whereas our prayers are TO God.

There is one other place in the New Testament where this type of sign is shown. Luke 2:34 is the sign of Jesus. He was for the fall and rise of many in Israel. And "a sign which will be spoken against." Luke 2:35 shows "that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed," just as 1 Corinthians 14:25 says the same thing, "the secrets of his heart are revealed." This shows that they are the same type of sign. Some believe it is positive and site the Day of Pentecost. Not so. It is meant to be a blessing, but is two-edged, and many will mock tongues - and that sign is still in effect today bringing with it judgment, and the true nature of their hearts are revealed.

You are confusing the gift of tongues with the several uses the gift provides. Paul says tongues are not human languages.

Dave L · Jul 10, 2018

Kiterius said:
Er... no. What he does do is to expand the definition of tongues beyond just human languages.

“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2) (KJV 1900)

1stcenturylady · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
So the tongue speaker understood what they were saying in the heavenly tongue, in order to be edified. But they must translate it , or interpret it so others could understand.

The speaker does NOT understand the heavenly language they are speaking. That is why Paul tells them to seek the gift that would allow them to. You are doing good, and we agree up to this, but not when scripture doesn't back up what you are saying

1stcenturylady · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
You are confusing the gift of tongues with the several uses the gift provides. Paul says tongues are not human languages.

I never said it was.

1stcenturylady · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2) (KJV 1900)

That is the rule, whereby all theories about tongues must comply. Some teach that the Jews on the Day of Pentecost understood, naturally, what the speakers were saying. Not so.

Kiterius · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2) (KJV 1900)

Yes Del - that's about, "...he that speaketh in an unknown tongue..." What it does not say is that the spiritual gift of tongues is always manifested in unknown tongues.

1stcenturylady · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
You are confusing the gift of tongues with the several uses the gift provides. Paul says tongues are not human languages.

There is much more I wrote that you ignored. I expect it to be new to you, and would like your thoughts.

Dave L · Jul 10, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
There is much more I wrote that you ignored. I expect it to be new to you, and would like your thoughts.

I think you have it wrong. If Paul says tongues are not a human language, which BTW he does. Then we need to readjust our interpretations to his specifications. They were a prayer language. A sign of impending doom to physical Israel. And equal to prophesy when interpreted.

Something else to consider: Tongues edifies the speaker. Prophecy edifies the hearers. Why? Because understanding is what edifies. Paul says the tongue speaker alone is edified, unless they interpret. So they must have understood what they were saying in the heavenly tongue, in order to be edified. But they must translate it , or interpret it so others could understand.

Dave L · Jul 10, 2018

Kiterius said:
Yes Del - that's about, "...he that speaketh in an unknown tongue..." What it does not say is that the spiritual gift of tongues is always manifested in unknown tongues.

We cannot build doctrines on what scripture does not say.

Dave L · Jul 10, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
That is the rule, whereby all theories about tongues must comply. Some teach that the Jews on the Day of Pentecost understood, naturally, what the speakers were saying. Not so.

They did not understand naturally because tongues is a heavenly language needing interpretation.

Kiterius · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
We cannot build doctrines on what scripture does not say.

That doesn't relate to my point regarding the Scripture you quoted to me.

Kiterius · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
They did not understand naturally because tongues is a heavenly language needing interpretation.

It is sometimes, but not always.

Dave L · Jul 10, 2018

Kiterius said:
It is sometimes, but not always.

Again, we cannot build doctrines where the bible does not speak.

1stcenturylady · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
I think you have it wrong. If Paul says tongues are not a human language, which BTW he does. Then we need to readjust our interpretations to his specifications. They were a prayer language. A sign of impending doom to physical Israel. And equal to prophesy when interpreted.

Something else to consider: Tongues edifies the speaker. Prophecy edifies the hearers. Why? Because understanding is what edifies. Paul says the tongue speaker alone is edified, unless they interpret. So they must have understood what they were saying in the heavenly tongue, in order to be edified. But they must translate it , or interpret it so others could understand.

I totally disagree. When 1 Corinthians 14:2 says that no man understand, it means the speaker also. Your theory that because the speaker is "edified" he must understand what he is saying is totally shot down by 13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Your "A sign of impending doom to physical Israel" was long over; therefore, Paul is speaking of the hearts of those who hear tongues, not of some future doom to Israel. If you are talking about 70 A.D., then tongues wouldn't be available today, but would have died then.

1stcenturylady · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
They did not understand naturally because tongues is a heavenly language needing interpretation.

I agree only that is wasn't a language understood to those present. "Tongues of men and of angels." All language is created by God. To say that is was only angels, is disregarding the written word.

Dave L · Jul 10, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I agree only that is wasn't a language understood to those present. "Tongues of men and of angels." All language is created by God. To say that is was only angels, is disregarding the written word.

This contradicts Paul, making natural human language into the miraculous gift of tongues.

RDKirk · Jul 10, 2018

Sanoy said:
If we accept that one is speaking a heavenly language I think we have to lose the concept of a vocal semantic utterance. A spirit in the heavenly realm would not naturally need to pressurize air by vibrating vocal cords, nor would there be a receiving ear drum for the other spirit. So if there is a heavenly language being spoken perhaps it's non verbal and what we hear is merely a triggering of Broca's area of the brain.

I have considered that. The sounds being uttered might only perform a "comm-jam" function to remove the conscious mind from spirit-to-spirit communication.

Dave L · Jul 10, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I totally disagree. When 1 Corinthians 14:2 says that no man understand, it means the speaker also. Your theory that because the speaker is "edified" he must understand what he is saying is totally shot down by 13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Your "A sign of impending doom to physical Israel" was long over; therefore, Paul is speaking of the hearts of those who hear tongues, not of some future doom to Israel. If you are talking about 70 A.D., then tongues wouldn't be available today, but would have died then.

All of your understanding falls short. Tongues were also a sign to wicked Israel of looming judgement which happened in 70 AD. (Old Testament terminology used foreign tongues as a sign of judgement several times). Also edification based on understanding happened when someone spoke in tongues. And also edified any hearers when interpreted.

1stcenturylady · Jul 10, 2018

Dave L said:
This contradicts Paul, making natural human language into the miraculous gift of tongues.

There are ancient languages that have died out, or not spoken in the region. I am not going to disregard 1 Corinthians 13:1 just because you don't agree with it.

Tongues, a different view.

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