2 thess 2:3 "Falling Away"? is it Blasphemy

Douggg said:

Agreed. The Antichrist will be saying that Jesus was not the messiah.
I have no idea what you mean by your statement.

The false prophet will likely claim to be Elijah. In Judaism, there is a belief that some people are resurrected. Which is what they believe about Elijah.


He - who? Who are you talking about? Start copy and pasting some bible passages and underline or color highlight what you are referring to.
I have stated that the falling away will because many in Christianity sometime in the future will be convinced that the Antichrist, following Gog/Magog and anointed the King of Israel, is the true messiah and that the Jews were right all along. That has has not happened before in history.
They who? Copy and pasts the bible verse(s) you are referring to, and underline or color highlight the particular parts specific to your statements.

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The antichrist does NOT act like any messiah that fulfills scripture. He isn't trying to be something in the scriptures. He's denying the scriptures entirely and proclaiming himself to be God because he is saying there is no God. He is in NO way acting righteous for the sake of deceiving people. He is not placating to any sense of the people about God and who this person or that person is supposed to be in scripture. The falling away is that there is NO God and there is NO scripture and there is NO sense of righteousness at all. Everything is a cesspool. It's rampant wickedness of the most clear and obvious kind: no more hiding it.

So there will be no confusion as to who the antichrist is but that there will be such depravity that people will be deluded into thinking none of it matters.

Chinchilla said:

Not true , if you are born of God you can't sin /blasphemy HS .
1 John 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


That falling away refers to not church but overall falling away from faith. Some people view that as rapture but I do not think it refers to rapture but simply less and less people become believers and they fall away from sound doctrine .

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Yes I agree ...and most likely falling away from the new covenant to return to the old covenant and temple worship denying Jesus altogether as the messiah

It will be in that era that the final anti christ comes...claiming to be God in the flesh....

dfw69 said:

Yes I agree ...and most likely falling away from the new covenant to return to the old covenant and temple worship denying Jesus altogether as the messiah

It will be in that era that the final anti christ comes...claiming to be God in the flesh....

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The antichrist is the man of LAWLESSNESS. He has NOTHING to do with ANY covenant. He will NOT be returning to the old covenant by any stretch of the imagination. Read my previous post. He has nothing to do with the scriptures in his own right.

Kevin Snow said:

The antichrist is the man of LAWLESSNESS. He has NOTHING to do with ANY covenant. He will NOT be returning to the old covenant by any stretch of the imagination. Read my previous post. He has nothing to do with the scriptures in his own right.

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Is it lawful to condemn someone who believe in Jesus as god yet the law says have no other god but YHVH?...

dfw69 said:

Is it lawful to condemn someone who believe in Jesus as god yet the law says have no other god but YHVH?...

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What?

Kevin Snow said:

Look, just because the Israelites do not recognize Yahshua as the true Messiah but are looking for another does NOT mean that that other person is automatically the antichrist. There are prophecies that were NOT fulfilled by Yahshua and Yahshua himself interpreted "all the things concerning himself" to his disciples. He did not fulfill every prophecy. Neither are there prophecies left only to be fulfilled by his second coming. There ARE prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled by the 2nd Elijah. If there are 2 comings of the Messiah, there will be 2 Elijahs that prepare the way of his coming. The prince of the covenant is this second Elijah as described in Daniel 9 and 11. This is the person they are waiting for because without him they cannot even build the third temple. And there are MANY prophecies about this second Elijah who comes and sets things straight so that this word might be fulfilled:

They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. ~Isaiah 11:9

Just read that full passage. None of that was fulfilled yet but it will be fulfilled.

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The prince of the covenant to come will be the actual Elijah that was taken to heaven?

Kevin Snow said:

What?

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Is it ok to judge and condemn by the law the sinners who break the law?

Anti christ will condemn those who go against his version of the law....he will claim to be God and sit in the temple as god and use the law unlawfully to condemn sinners...in doing so ...he is pictured as a lawless man ....not obeying the laws of god....by using the law unlawfully ...

dfw69 said:

Is it ok to judge and condemn by the law the sinners who break the law?

Anti christ will condemn those who go against his version of the law....he will claim to be God and sit in the temple as god and use the law unlawfully to condemn sinners...in doing so ...he is pictured as a lawless man ....not obeying the laws of god....by using the law unlawfully ...

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dfw69 said:

The prince of the covenant is the actual Elijah that was taken to heaven?

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As John the Baptist was Elijah so also is the prince of the covenant. They are what is known as archetypes.

Next, why do you ask that question about condemning people by the law? It doesn't have anything to do with the next paragraph. Anyway. Everyone will be judged by God whether under the law or over it.

The antichrist has NOTHING to do with the law at all. He makes his own law which is the absence of law: anarchy. He does not use scripture to do what he does. He uses sorcery. He does not placate to any sense of righteousness through using the law. He is without law. He entirely throws it all out. So no, he does not use the law unlawfully. That's been done by many people already and they are even forgiven of their mistakes if they repent. The man of lawlessness is just that: lawless.

Kevin Snow said:

As John the Baptist was Elijah so also is the prince of the covenant. They are what is known as archetypes.

Next, why do you ask that question about condemning people by the law? It doesn't have anything to do with the next paragraph. Anyway. Everyone will be judged by God whether under the law or over it.

The antichrist has NOTHING to do with the law at all. He makes his own law which is the absence of law: anarchy. He does not use scripture to do what he does. He uses sorcery. He does not placate to any sense of righteousness through using the law. He is without law. He entirely throws it all out. So no, he does not use the law unlawfully. That's been done by many people already and they are even forgiven of their mistakes if they repent. The man of lawlessness is just that: lawless.

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Agree to disagree....concerning the means Anti christ will use to judge and condemn sinners...

But I would like to understand you better.. .

So this prince of the covenant is not "the" Elijah but someone like Elijah. Calling down fire ?....or going up against false Christianity to lead to true Christianity or true judaism ? ....a return to the Torah type of thing? What is this prince of the covenant role and why should we listen to him?

dfw69 said:

Agree to disagree....concerning the means Anti christ will use to judge and condemn sinners...

But I would like to understand you better.. .

So this prince of the covenant is not "the" Elijah but someone like Elijah. Calling down fire ?....or going up against false Christianity to lead to true Christianity or true judaism ? ....a return to the Torah type of thing? What is this prince of the covenant role and why should we listen to him?

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There is Elijah and Elijah had a friend Elishah. They are archetypes of the two witnesses. The two witnesses are a powerhouse in God and they are the ones who rebuild the third temple and reestablish the evening and morning sacrifices. It is literally over their dead bodies that the antichrist begins his evil 42 month desolation.

The prince of the covenant is the archetype of Elijah and the second of the two witnesses is the archetype of Elishah. By their guidance does this prophecy become fulfilled:

They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Yahweh as the waters cover the sea. ~Isaiah 11:9

If you want to know. There is actually prophecy all over scripture of the prince of the covenant. But don't ask me what they all are. I'm not going to point them all out to you.

Kevin Snow said:

There is Elijah and Elijah had a friend Elishah. They are archetypes of the two witnesses. The two witnesses are a powerhouse in God and they are the ones who rebuild the third temple and reestablish the evening and morning sacrifices. It is literally over their dead bodies that the antichrist begins his evil 42 month desolation.

The prince of the covenant is the archetype of Elijah and the second of the two witnesses is the archetype of Elishah. By their guidance does this prophecy become fulfilled:

They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Yahweh as the waters cover the sea. ~Isaiah 11:9

If you want to know. There is actually prophecy all over scripture of the prince of the covenant. But don't ask me what they all are. I'm not going to point them all out to you.

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How will the earth be full of knowledge of Yahweh through their guidance?

And who do you believe is the Anti christ ?

So let me get this straight.....2 witnesses come first to build temple and sacrifices.....we must sacrifice again?...Jesus sacrifice meant nothing?....

Then Anti christ comes and kills them

Then Jesus returns to earth and the dead are resurrected ?...Moses David all prophets on earth at this time?

Kevin Snow said:

The antichrist does NOT act like any messiah that fulfills scripture. He isn't trying to be something in the scriptures. He's denying the scriptures entirely and proclaiming himself to be God because he is saying there is no God.

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Kevin, you are not understanding.

The person does not start out claiming to be God or to think he himself is God. He changes....after being in the position of being the illegitimate King of Israel for three years three months (we can only approximate how long). The reason for the change he is into the occult, kaballah, called craft in Daniel 8. A mystical branch of (perverted) Judaism.

As he changes, he magnifies himself in his heart to believe he has become God. Here is a verse in Ezekiel 28:1-10 after the person goes through this change. The prince of Tyrus is a code name for him.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

He does not say there is no God. Instead, he says there are many gods, but he is the greatest of them all.

Dainel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Publicly, when he comes out of the closet, after being convinced in his heart (because he has listened to Satan) that he has become God is in 2Thessalonians2:3-4. Unexpectedly, he goes into the temple, sits....

2Thessalonians2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Kevin, go back up and read Ezekiel 28:2 again and compare with 2Thessalonians2:4. God will have the person killed for his act. It is in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

And the person finds himself in the place of the dead - mocked - before God in disdain for the person brings him back to life, in Isaiah 14:19-20.

When the person comes back to life - it is as the beast. He is no longer the Antichrist, illegitimate King of Israel. What you are reading about the person as the beast in Revelation 13 is after the person has gone through the role of being the Antichrist, illegimate King of Israel.

As the beast, he will be in the role of being the 8th king of the Roman Empire (the EU in the end times).

He will have started out over 7 years earlier as the little horn, 7th king of the Roman Empire (the EU in the end times) - before for a short time becoming the illegitimate King of Israel, the Antichrist.

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Starts out as the little horn, leader of the EU, 7th king of the Roman Empire.

Then after Gog/Magog is the prince who shall come (into the middle east)

Then the Jews believe he is the messiah, the false prophet anoints him the King of Israel - as he become the Antichrist.

He confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, making a big speech on the temple mount - the 70th week begins.

Three years, three month into his reigns, he changes, convinced in his heart that he has achieved God-hood. And commits the act in 2Thessalonians2:4.

The Jews will be mortified and impeach him - ending his time as the Antichrist.

As the revealed man of sin, God brings strangers against him (Ezekiel 28:1-10) and has him killed.

Finding himself in hell, and mocked, he is cast out of the grave, by God in disdain for the person. Because he destroys his land and his people.

Come back to the life the person is the beast, possessed by the unclean spirit now in the bottomless pit, that come out. His claim to be God, before he is killed - it appears to be true to the word because he comes back to life. And the world, who names are not written in the Lamb's book of life, will worship him.

He will be in the role of the 8th King of the Roman Empire. Which the EU allied by the west will be the dominant power over the entire world the 42 months of the beast.

Douggg said:

The person does not start out claiming to be God or to think he himself is God. He changes....after being in the position of being the illegitimate King of Israel for three years three months (we can only approximate how long). The reason for the change he is into the occult, kaballah, called craft in Daniel 8. A mystical branch of (perverted) Judaism.

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He is NEVER the king of Israel. There is no scripture that says he becomes king of Israel in the "strong covenant for one week" in Daniel 9 or in Revelations when they trample the courts for 42 months. You are simply mistaken. He becomes the ruler of the North country through lies and deceit when he isn't even legally able to be the ruler. The NORTH country Doug. He is the ruler of the North country which is the kingdom of the beast. NOT and NEVER Israel. He is born out of Nineveh according to Nahum 1:11.

Also, the prince of Tyre is NOTHING of what the man of lawlessness is. It says in scripture "I said you are gods" So in THIS way does the prince of Tyre make himself have the heart of A god, not the ultimate God of all. He makes himself out to be like an angel, who have been deemed as "sons of God."

dfw69 said:

How will the earth be full of knowledge of Yahweh through their guidance?

And who do you believe is the Anti christ ?

So let me get this straight.....2 witnesses come first to build temple and sacrifices.....we must sacrifice again?...Jesus sacrifice meant nothing?....

Then Anti christ comes and kills them

Then Jesus returns to earth and the dead are resurrected ?...Moses David all prophets on earth at this time?

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The evening and morning sacrifices were commanded as a perpetual statue for Israel. They have nothing to do with sacrifices for sin. There are NO sacrifices for sin in the third temple because Yahshua fulfilled the law. That fulfillment does NOT abolish the law at all. The Israelites are still to keep the law as it was given to them. Except in the matter of clean and unclean animals and sacrifices for sin must they keep the whole law.

Kevin Snow said:

The evening and morning sacrifices were commanded as a perpetual statue for Israel. They have nothing to do with sacrifices for sin. There are NO sacrifices for sin in the third temple because Yahshua fulfilled the law. That fulfillment does NOT abolish the law at all. The Israelites are still to keep the law as it was given to them. Except in the matter of clean and unclean animals and sacrifices for sin must they keep the whole law.

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So in you theory the purpose of the 2 witness is to return the Jews to temple worship ...

I'm interested to hear what your answers to my other questions I had for you

dfw69 said:

So in you theory the purpose of the 2 witness is to return the Jews to temple worship ...

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Their purpose goes far beyond this. He is the least. He is the smallest grain and thereby is made greater than all. They are the two golden lampstands. We will be refreshed and renewed through their fire. Just as John the Baptist came and we were refreshed in him. And the people asked him what it was they were to do. And he told them.

You haven't understood the revelation of Yahshua as you ought. But this is exactly what they will bring and it will be completely clear. For so it says:

The anger of Yahweh will not turn back until he has executed and accomplished the intents of his heart. In the latter days you will understand it clearly. ~Jeremiah 23:20

Kevin Snow said:

He is NEVER the king of Israel. There is no scripture that says he becomes king of Israel in the "strong covenant for one week" in Daniel 9 or in Revelations when they trample the courts for 42 months.

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Kevin, it doesn't have to say he is the King of Israel in confirming the covenant for 7 years. It is in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13, that Moses made it a requirement of all future leaders to do so on a 7 year shmita cycle - so future generation would not forget what Israel went through in the Exodus, to enter the promise land.

The speech has to be given from the place of God's choosing - which is a requirement in the text. I have talked to the Jews themselves about this requirement. And they said from the temple mount.

The 42 months in Revelation 11 is in the second half of the 7 years after the two witnesses are gone and the person has become the beast for those 42 months in Revelation 13.

Being the Antichrist is only while the person is the illegitimate King of Israel. Being the little horn and the beast is while the person is the King of the Roman Empire.

Kevin Snow said:

All that for you to just say it could be translated as "departure."

It's not "what" that restrains the man of lawlessness its "who." And the Holy Spirit is NEVER taken out of the way. It cannot be. This actually means that "he who restrains it" is a man himself. And it is as I pointed out in my original post. It is the prince of the covenant.

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The DEPARTURE of the Church is self evident.

The WHO is also the Church, Jesus told Peter the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, thus the mortal Wound of the SEVEN HEADED BEAST (what stopped it? The Church that Satan can not prevail against) was caused by the Church, and thus when the Church DEPARTS the Wound is HEALED. The Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth and Conquer Jerusalem and the Mediterranean Sea Region thus becoming the BEAST.

The Church via the Holy Spirit restrains the Beast from coming forth, if it was just he Holy Spirit he could always block him from coming forth, but you see without vessel's to work through the Holy Spirit is not effective, hence Jesus teaching us WE MUST PRAY without ceasing !!

The Beast System SKIPS the Church Age........Fourth Beast...church Age....Little Horn.

The Statue without the Church Age fits perfectly.

The 70th week decree without the Church Age works out smoothly.

Douggg said:

Kevin, it doesn't have to say he is the King of Israel in confirming the covenant for 7 years. It is in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13, that Moses made it a requirement of all future leaders to do so on a 7 year shmita cycle - so future generation would not forget what Israel went through in the Exodus, to enter the promise land.

The speech has to be given from the place of God's choosing - which is a requirement in the text. I have talked to the Jews themselves about this requirement. And they said from the temple mount.

The 42 months in Revelation 11 is in the second half of the 7 years after the two witnesses are gone and the person has become the beast for those 42 months in Revelation 13.

Being the Antichrist is only while the person is the illegitimate King of Israel. Being the little horn and the beast is while the person is the King of the Roman Empire.

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That's your basis!? That's like saying "because he has a covenant for 7 years he is the king of Israel, because of the shmita" WOW

So let me tell you something. They don't correlate. The 7 years of the covenant of the antichrist has nothing to do with the law. It has to do with what God is willing to give him according to this word:

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
~2 Thessalonians 2:11

The time that the antichrist has is ONLY the time he is allowed by God to do what he does and it is ONLY for the purpose of showing that they all are worthless in believing what is false and knowing that it is false.

This time has nothing to do with Israel. Trust me, he is not an Israeli figure and he does not follow the law. He is the man of lawlessness. You just don't understand what that means.

And I don't care what the Jews think. They've been wrong before. Look at how wrong they were about the time of their visitation.

Revealing Times said:

The DEPARTURE of the Church is self evident.

The WHO is also the Church, Jesus told Peter the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, thus the mortal Wound of the SEVEN HEADED BEAST (what stopped it? The Church that Satan can not prevail against) was caused by the Church, and thus when the Church DEPARTS the Wound is HEALED. The Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth and Conquer Jerusalem and the Mediterranean Sea Region thus becoming the BEAST.

The Church via the Holy Spirit restrains the Beast from coming forth, if it was just he Holy Spirit he could always block him from coming forth, but you see without vessel's to work through the Holy Spirit is not effective, hence Jesus teaching us WE MUST PRAY without ceasing !!

The Beast System SKIPS the Church Age........Fourth Beast...church Age....Little Horn.

The Statue without the Church Age fits perfectly.

The 70th week decree without the Church Age works out smoothly.

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You know this is a lot easier than you are making it. The church is a body of believers. It isn't a "he". They are describing the thing exactly as it is. The "he" means it's a person. It's just that simple.