What if Adam had refused to eat the forbidden fruit?

Eloy Craft

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Your response, "God needs evil to reveal Himself if that's true."
You missed the qualifier to this statement. That had to be difficult to manage. My statement pointed out that if what you say is true then God needs evil. Of course I don't believe what you are saying is true so I don't believe God needs evil. You do believe what you are saying?
 
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Eloy Craft

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No, but I am not God. I have limited knowledge.
Then why would you say what God must have in order to do something? Maybe He knows a way no one else does? You imply that evil must be the object for God to be able to display His attributes? That evil must exist for God to reveal these attributes? It's not me insisting evil must exist for God to reveal Himself.

You said: For God to display these attributes, He must have an object on which to display these things.
 
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JoeP222w

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So, are you saying that God set us up to fail? (I hope not)

- Steve

Please read Romans 9 as I have written already. I am not going to keep repeating myself. You are taking on the role of the hypothetical objector.

Romans 9:19-20 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
 
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Colter

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Question: What would have happened if Adam
had refused to eat the forbidden fruit?


Assuming that Eve ate it and transgressed the command of God, but Adam did not.
Would she have been saved by Adam's obedience? Would humankind have been in a
fallen state as a consequence of her sin alone? Furthermore, if Adam had eaten from
the Tree of Life instead, how would that have further affected the situation.
Good question. As I understand it from the Urantia Book, Adam deliberately sinned after Eve in order to share her fate. Its a love story, Adam couldn't conceive of being without his long time mate. Eve would likely have been banished from the garden and fate unpredictable. Adam would have remained loyal to Gods plan of redemption to a world that had already fallen before Adam and Eve incarnate. He could have possibly salvaged the plan of rehabilitation of the world.
 
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Sam91

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Probably wait for Eve to die then re-marry . Man's rib will grow back so why not make Eve version 2.0 .

But you still have no clue what Eve 2.0 would do because both would be created after God created the paradise not prior to that , Adam saw God creating the animals in front of him Eve did not .

That's why Satan went after the weaker link which did not saw God creating stuff .

Adam and Eve could be alredy eating from tree of life prior to that it was not forbidden because they were in sinless state . We have no insight if they did but they could .
Animals were made before Adam Genesis 1:24-26

And it was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil they ate.
 
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Sam91

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And after Adam aswell read Genesis 2.
I am not sure that Genesis 2 is an account of the order. But an explanatory paraphrase of Chapter 1. So, if that is where you get that from and others read it the same way, I guess you might be right.

(It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil though, not the tree of life that they ate from. ;) )
 
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Chinchilla

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I am not sure that Genesis 2 is an account of the order. But an explanatory paraphrase of Chapter 1. So, if that is where you get that from and others read it the same way, I guess you might be right.


I don't know how you can read it the same way .

For example in Genesis 1
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

but in Genesis 2

And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

First God created the heaven and earth and animals / plants from Day 1 to 5 , then he created the man on 6th day and let him witness creating the paradise with animals , trees ect .
 
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Sam91

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I don't know how you can read it the same way .

For example in Genesis 1
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

but in Genesis 2

And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

First God created the heaven and earth and animals / plants from Day 1 to 5 , then he created the man on 6th day and let him witness creating the paradise with animals , trees ect .
Compare with Genesis 1:24-26


I didn't post verse 20
 
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ewq1938

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I agree with that. David is shapen in iniquity and his mom's womb was the place he was shapen. He sinned in the womb?


No, he said his mom committed a sin in order to get pregnant.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


There are three major issues with using that verse to prove original sin.

First, David speaks of his own birth, no one else's. There is no "We" in any part of that verse. David says "I" speaking of himself, not all humanity. If I wrote that I was born with one arm does that mean all children in all of history was born with one arm?

"and in sin did my mother conceive me"

Second, he does not say he had someone else's sin when he was born. He is accusing his mother of committing sin to conceive him and he alone is thus "shapen in iniquity".


This is what David wrote but somehow people tend to see something else which is not there: Behold, humanity was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did mothers conceive us.

Luckily that is not what is written. David speaks of himself only.


A third issue would be whether David is even correct or if he is exaggerating his conception out of a severe depression and loathing of himself as there is no evidence that his Mother sinned regarding his conception.
 
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ewq1938

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Tried to explain why sin did not enter after Eve sinned but only after they both did .


Yet sinned entered the moment Eve sinned...which happened before Adam sinned. Adam simply is the one credited because he was the man and the man takes the responsibility but he wasn't punished more than Eve...both were punished and both died the day they sinned.
 
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ewq1938

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Adam blamed Eve.
That's a great point that I have not seen prior on this thread.
Thanks for pointing that out. Good job!

- Steve


He accurately answered God and described what happened. It was Eve's fault. She sinned first and gave the fruit to Adam and he ate.
 
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2tim_215

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Good question. As I understand it from the Urantia Book, Adam deliberately sinned after Eve in order to share her fate. Its a love story, Adam couldn't conceive of being without his long time mate. Eve would likely have been banished from the garden and fate unpredictable. Adam would have remained loyal to Gods plan of redemption to a world that had already fallen before Adam and Eve incarnate. He could have possibly salvaged the plan of rehabilitation of the world.
I never read Urantia but I have more or less come to the same conclusion with one additional aspect: not only did Adam love Eve and did not wish her to be destroyed, regardless, he loved Eve more than his creator, which is a huge no-no. We are to love God more than even our families and when we don't, things usually turn out pretty bad for us.

Furthermore, not only do we not know what God would have done had Adam refused to eat along with Eve. He could have forgiven her on behalf of Adam. After all she was deceived by the serpent. And one of the questions which the Bible does not address in Genesis, is where was Adam when this took place? It appears that he was not present at the time or he could have stopped it from occurring. Sleeping or enjoying the sights?
 
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2tim_215

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No, he said his mom committed a sin in order to get pregnant.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


There are three major issues with using that verse to prove original sin.

First, David speaks of his own birth, no one else's. There is no "We" in any part of that verse. David says "I" speaking of himself, not all humanity. If I wrote that I was born with one arm does that mean all children in all of history was born with one arm?

"and in sin did my mother conceive me"

Second, he does not say he had someone else's sin when he was born. He is accusing his mother of committing sin to conceive him and he alone is thus "shapen in iniquity".


This is what David wrote but somehow people tend to see something else which is not there: Behold, humanity was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did mothers conceive us.

Luckily that is not what is written. David speaks of himself only.


A third issue would be whether David is even correct or if he is exaggerating his conception out of a severe depression and loathing of himself as there is no evidence that his Mother sinned regarding his conception.
The Bible also says that when a child is born "sparks fly upward", lol.
Job 5:6-7 (KJV)
6 Although affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground;
7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.
 
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ewq1938

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The Bible also says that when a child is born "sparks fly upward", lol.

It doesn't say that...you missed what it was actually saying.

Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

These are known as "givens" or facts. Sparks of a fire indeed do fly upward so he compares that a man will experience trouble or hardship in life as another fact of life. What is not being said is a child is born and sparks suddenly appear out of no where.
 
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2tim_215

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It doesn't say that...you missed what it was actually saying.

Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

These are known as "givens" or facts. Sparks of a fire indeed do fly upward so he compares that a man will experience trouble or hardship in life as another fact of life. What is not being said is a child is born and sparks suddenly appear out of no where.[/quote\]

sparks (Strong's) from <H8313> (saraph); a live coal; by analogy lightning; figurative an arrow (as flashing through the air); specifically fever :- arrow, (burning) coal, burning heat, + spark, hot thunderbolt.

upward (Strong's) a primitive root; to soar, i.e. be lofty; figurative to be haughty :- exalt, be haughty, be (make) high (-er), lift up, mount up, be proud, raise up great height, upward.

trouble (Strong's) G5999 from <H5998> (`amal); toil, i.e. wearing effort; hence worry, whether of body or mind :- grievance (-vousness), iniquity, labour, mischief, miserable (-sery), pain (-ful), perverseness, sorrow, toil, travail, trouble, wearisome, wickedness.

That's what it does say. Don't know what you mean by givens or facts. Yes, it is a fact because God said it. How you might want to interpret it is up to you I suppose.
 
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