Revelation 9: Tormented 5 MONTHS and death fleeing

TribulationSigns said:

Before you explain 5 months, I think you need to read the first three verses:

Revelation 9:1-3 KJV
[1] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.​

1. Who is this star that falls from heaven that was given the key to open the bottomless pit?
2. Why did God allow him, by giving him the key, to open the bottomless pit?
3. What do the sun and the air represent? And what does the smoke of the pit represents that darkened the sun and the air?
4. Who does the smoke locusts represent?
5. What power will they get to become like scorpions of the earth?

Please offer a biblical answer to these question before we deal with 5 months.

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Who is this star that falls from heaven that was given the key to open the bottomless pit?

Satan.

Why did God allow him, by giving him the key, to open the bottomless pit?

To begin the purging of the Church and in separating the Tares from amongst the Wheat.

What do the sun and the air represent? And what does the smoke of the pit represents that darkened the sun and the air?

Sun represents Christ's truth and the air is the ability to breath life into those who can receive the gospel of Jesus and his truth. Smoke represents the ploys of the enemy to shun the truth of Christ and to prevent his truth from being breathed into others.

Who does the smoke locusts represent?

The time of insurrection against God, pointing to Apostasy (Falling Away), coinciding with the purging of the Church, the separation of the Tares from amongst the Tares.

What power will they get to become like scorpions of the earth?

The power to purge the sour grapes within the Church, that is the purging of reprobates who have defiled themselves with man and his institutions, in conforming with the mark of man's (beast) authority and conforming with the trending ways of the world.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Thank you for that post and bringing up the scorpions.

First off, I want to look at the hebrew and greek words used for "scorpions":

6137 `aqrab ak-rawb' of uncertain derivation; a scorpion; figuratively, a scourge or knotted whip:--scorpion.
Strong's Number H6137 matches the Hebrew עַקְרָב (`aqrab), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses

4651. skorpios skor-pee'-os probably from an obsolete skerpo (perhaps strengthened from the base of 4649 and meaning to pierce); a "scorpion" (from its sting):--scorpion.
Strong's Number G4651 matches the Greek σκορπίος (skorpios), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses

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Deuteronomy 8:15 = fiery serpents episode in wilderness prompting Moses to raise up serpent staff, and all who looked to the raised up serpent staff (=> Crucifixion) were saved

Ezekiel 2:6 = Son of Man has no fear of scorpions

Thank you The Times for tried to answer my questions. Something that Little Lamb has hesitated to do.

The Times said:

Who is this star that falls from heaven that was given the key to open the bottomless pit?

Satan.

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With all due respect, I don't think you are thinking logically. Satan is the one in the bottomless pit that whoever it is that is fallen will set loose. So it's untenable that Satan is the one fallen and then looses himself who is bound in the Pit.

Revelation 20:1-3

• "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
• And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
• And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

This is the Spirit of evil (Satan) bound in this bottomless pit, which is symbolized as the Dragon. So he cannot be the falling star who looses himself.

Why did God allow him, by giving him the key, to open the bottomless pit?

To begin the purging of the Church and in separating the Tares from amongst the Wheat.

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Okay. Please bear with me for my long explanation for this question but it is important to understand.

Revelation 9:1-2

• "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

The authority to open the pit is given to the Messenger of the Church, and this is symbolized by his being a star falling from his Heavenly place. That is a falling from his enlightenment into the apostasy of the world. The same falling as illustrated in Hebrews of false Christians of the Church who fall away.

Hebrews 6:4-6

• "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
• And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
• If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

These are stars that have lost their light, stars that no longer have a place in the kingdom, in that they have fallen to the earth. There is only desolation left for them. Given the key illustrates it is for God's purpose and will that His unfaithful congregation bring this judgment of the pit upon themselves!

But you may ask, exactly what does this star represents. The key to understanding the stars of Revelation is to allow the Bible to interpret itself. And using that sound hermeneutic, comparing scripture with scripture, we can come to the truth of this consistent imagery. And we see that from the beginning of the revealing/uncovering of the meaning of this cryptic book, God Himself OPENLY interpreted the enigma of what the stars in this book represented. And He defined them as representing the Messengers or [aggelos] of the Churches:

Revelation 1:20

• "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

Clearly, God said the Candlesticks or Lampstands were symbolic of the Churches, and the Stars were symbolic of the Messengers of the Churches. The very same Messengers that He warned of their unfaithfulness, and what it would ultimately result in. These aren't idle warnings to the Messenger of the Church in Ephesus, it is for all the Messengers of the Church all throughout the ages.

Revelation 2:5

• "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

That's what God said to the Star of the Church at Ephesus. Remember from where you are fallen and repent of your deeds, or He would remove that Messenger's Church out of its place. There is no ambiguity there. God is saying this star, interpreted as His Messenger of the Church at Ephesus, had fallen. And that he should repent of it and do the first works. The falling star represents God's Messenger.

And we see this truth revealed throughout the book of Revelation. Now I know the objection will be raised, "How are these messengers of the Churches if the stars that fall are in heaven?" The answer is because God uses the figure of heaven in the book of Revelation to symbolize the Kingdom of heaven. Just as He uses stars, which are also in heaven. We cannot forget, this is an obviously "cryptic" book using images and symbols and items to represent other things. There is no contradiction of the stars being in heaven, and God Himself demonstrates this vividly in passages like Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:1-2

• "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
• And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

Here we see the Kingdom of God on earth being represented by a Woman residing in heaven and by her having stars of heaven for her crowning glory (1 Corinthians 15:41). The crowns again signifying the Kingship or reign the congregation has. And of course, later we read these same stars were cast down from heaven to earth by the tail of her adversary, Satan. So clearly, not only are these not literal stars, they are those who reign with the Woman. The stars again represent the Messengers of the congregation, and the Dragon with tail represents Satan, the heaven they are in represents the Kingdom they reign in, and the man-child that came from the Woman represents Christ.

Revelation 12:4

• "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Through much travail the congregation was to be delivered, and she was. Clearly, there is no contradiction of the Israel of God either being symbolically in Heaven, or of the stars in heaven being the messengers of the congregation that were cast down before she was delivered of the man child.

But even though Christians know that Revelation is a book of symbolic images, they sometimes forget it when attempting to interpret incorrectly, and try and mix and match literal heaven with symbolic stars, moon, Woman, Dragon, etc. We have to be careful to be cognizant of that.

Ask yourself, what does it mean that a Dragon's tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth? It means that these are fallen messengers, people of the Lord's Old Testament congregation Israel who were overcome of the enemy where they are no longer of the Kingdom with the Woman. This was the fall of old testament congregation. That's the symbolism of stars falling away from heaven. It's the messengers losing the Kingdom, because they were never saved/sealed. They were stars destined to fall and lose their position in the Kingdom.

Matthew 21:42-43

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

How could these people lose their Kingdom? Only in that, the Great Dragon Satan had deceived them (as he had Judas) where they fell away from the Covenant of God. They lost the Kingdom because of unbelief. Meaning, the Spiritual Kingdom wasn't really within them, they simply sampled or tasted of the heavenly gift merely by being Covenanted children or professed believers of the kingdom to whom the Promises pertained. But without receiving Spiritual gift or Promise.

John 18:36

• "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Christ's kingdom is NOT of this world, and yet we (His People) live and reign with Christ in heavenly places "in this world." How? Because we, Spiritually speaking, have a spiritual home that is in heaven. And we are this Kingdom of heaven "represented" here on earth, striving to do His will on the Earth, as it is in heaven.

Why stars? Because WE are SYMNBOLIZED by stars because we are of Christ, who is the bright and morning Star Himself. And we reflect His light to the world as "stars". In other words, having Gospel as our testimony, we are the messengers of Christ's kingdom. Just as we are Israel because Christ is the true Israel of God, or we are sons of God because Christ is the true Son of God, or we are the seed because Christ is the Seed, etc., etc. See? Therefore, the stars were designated in the beginning of creation as the lessor lights of the heavens, and that is why God uses them to symbolize His messengers. For example, we are Messengers of light. And Satan's minions are those who come transformed to "appear" as messengers of light. Good messengers v.s. fallen messengers. Micheal (Christ) and his messengers v.s. Satan and his messengers.

Anyway, when John says he saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth, that is symbolic language to signify a falling away of the messenger of the Church. That is the APOSTASY of the church. Not unlike what we saw in Revelation 12 of the falling away of stars representing Messengers of the Old congregation of God losing the Kingdom at the Cross. So shall it be near the end of the world, when apostasy shall be in the New Testament congregation of Israel, the church! Satan is loosed and the stars will fall. Not Literal Stars, but people of the kingdom of heaven. In other words, those of the Church or congregation - the false prophets and christs. Another example:

Daniel 8:9-12

• "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
• And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
• Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
• And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered."

Doesn't it follow that if the stars are not literal stars, then the place they are said to be residing in (heaven) is symbolic as well? Daniel is speaking of the little horn, the Spirit Satan as he is given the power for a "short season" to assault the Church. They being spoken of again as the stars, the host of heaven. The Prince or Ruler of the Host is Christ, He is the Prince of the congregation or Church. This is the same cryptic language as found in Revelation of stars falling. Here it pictures Satan's reign as this little horn (small power) waxed great, even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Clearly, this speaks of the people of God's congregation. But only those unfaithful messengers are fallen. This fallen star represents the unfaithful messenger of the congregation whom God allows to loose the false prophets of Satan through his false teachings. It is the unfaithful church (falling star) who is responsible for loosening Satan from the bottomless pit and God allowed it. This is what "given the key" signifies. IT is God's will that it occurs so He will use Satan and his armies of smoke locusts (aka Gog and Magog) to attack his unfaithful congregation as a judgment!

And so comparing scripture with scripture, we should not be too surprised about the heaven and stars in Revelation being symbolic also. Even in the context of Revelation 9:1. A star here and there is the Messenger of God's congregation.

Continue to next post due to the length of this post...

{Contiune from the previous post}

What do the sun and the air represent? And what does the smoke of the pit represents that darkened the sun and the air?

Sun represents Christ's truth and the air is the ability to breath life into those who can receive the gospel of Jesus and his truth. Smoke represents the ploys of the enemy to shun the truth of Christ and to prevent his truth from being breathed into others.

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Revelation 9:2

• "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."
  

At this time of the opening and loosing of Satan from the pit (his power having already been bound there over 2000 years ago for the sake of building God's Church safely until all Gentiles be coming in), the wicked are NOW allowed (of God) go forth to the four quarters of the earth to deceive the nations and gather them together to battle against the church. This smoke or his power is what chokes the spirit and blinds the eyes, symbolizing deception. I believe that in God declaring in Revelation 9 that the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit, it is an illustration of the light and spirit of the church being made darkened so that the gospel truth can no longer found in the unfaithful congregation of God. The image of the sun representing light (Christ and HIs Gospel), and the air representing spirit (Holy Spirit). The smoke both blinds and chokes those in the church, because her sins have reached to heaven, and God remembers her iniquities (Revelation 18:5). The smoke is an illustration of the power of Satan bringing the church to desolation, a judgment sent by God and a warning sign to the saints of her impending judgment. Because of the locusts from this smoke, the great city of God will be no more.


Revelation 18:18-19

• "And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
  
  
• And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate."
  

This "smoke" of her burning is illustrating the church falling under the power of Satan as a judgment of God because of its iniquities. That is why the apostasy and desoaltion is happening to God's congregation today, only those with Spirit of Christ can "see" the smoke of her burning while many professed christians cannot see and still going to unfaithful church "thinking" she is protected by God. Beware! The church is no onger made (spiritually) rich anymore because of the locusts from the smoke as spoiled the True Gospel and take a prey upon it. Exact same picture of the armies of Gog and Magog attacking the church this way (a whole different study).

Who does the smoke locusts represent?

The time of insurrection against God, pointing to Apostasy (Falling Away), coinciding with the purging of the Church, the separation of the Tares from amongst the Tares.

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The smoke locusts represent false prophets and Christs with the spirit of antichrist, sent by Satan, to deceive those people in the congregation who are without a seal of God! Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Joseph Prince, etc. are a few examples!

What power will they get to become like scorpions of the earth?


The power to purge the sour grapes within the Church, that is the purging of reprobates who have defiled themselves with man and his institutions, in conforming with the mark of man's (beast) authority and conforming with the trending ways of the world.

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Revelation 9:3

• "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power."
  

When we read the text carefully we see that the locusts were given power, even as the scorpions of the earth have power. I believe it is this smoke that is representing the power of the beast that was held captive in the pit. Using God's Word as our authority and comparing scripture with scripture, we see that the scorpions in scripture (like snakes/serpents) are often used to symbolize the power of Satan. Please REMEMBER that it is a power that has no sway over the elect, but only deceives the unfaithful of God's congregation. People who have NOT YET SEALED OF GOD, Revelation 9:4. For example, see what Christ told the disciples when He sent them out to witness.


Luke 10:19

• "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
  

The power Christ gave His people (Elect) was greater than the power of the scorpions and serpents and it has been for the past 2,000 years of church building. This isn't talking about scorpions and and snakes any more than Mark chapter 16 was, it's talking about the power of Satan and how it can't harm true believers. Likewise these locusts from the smoke in the book of Revelation, given the power of the scorpion. This power is of Satan and cannot hurt the true believers. Their power, HOWEVER, is specifically to hurt those of the church who are unfaithful or not sealed of God. They are not true believers. Just professed Christians. These locusts will bring their house (church) to desolation where they will beleive a lie, thinking, their church are blessed of God.


Matthew 24:23-25 KJV

• Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
  
  
• For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
  
  
• Behold, I have told you before.
  

The great tribulation is when people will tell you to come to their church where they thought where Christ is because of the lying signs and wonders of false prophets and christs. Christ warned us NOT to believe them or go to their church because it "IS" a time of judgment when Christ is using Satan and his armies of false prophets against His unfaithful congregation as a JUDGEMENT which we can "SEE" and mourned over the spiritual condition of the church. I believe it already taking place right now.

TribulationSigns said:

{Contiune from the previous post}



Revelation 9:2

• "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."
  

At this time of the opening and loosing of Satan from the pit (his power having already been bound there over 2000 years ago for the sake of building God's Church safely until all Gentiles be coming in),

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Actually that is not Satan who is locked into the Bottomless Pit...

Satan WILL BE locked into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years AFTER THE COMING OF JESUS....Revelation 20 is about it.

Riberra said:

Actually that is not Satan who is locked into the Bottomless Pit...

Satan WILL BE locked into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years AFTER THE COMING OF JESUS....Revelation 20 is about it.

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It is because you are reading the whole book of Revelation in chronological order which it is NOT! Revelation is in no way chronological in its order of things revealed in imagery. For example, Christ is in the church in Revelation 2, the sealing of Israel ends in Revelation 7, and Christ is born in Revelation 12. Therefore, it is the same spirit Satan who was in the bottomless pit in Revelation 9 and HE IS OBVIOUSLY THE KING OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT which is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon, meaning destroyer. Of course, it is Satan - the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal!

TribulationSigns said:

It is because you are reading the whole book of Revelation in chronological order which it is NOT! Revelation is in no way chronological in its order of things revealed in imagery. For example, Christ is in the church in Revelation 2,

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Christ give an address to the 7 Churches that were in existence in the Roman Province of Asia in the time of John.. Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 cover this.

TribulationSigns said:

the sealing of Israel ends in Revelation 7,

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Revelation 7:1-8 is a End Times Event and is described in precise chronological complement of the 6Th Seal [The 7 TH Seal being opened in Revelation 8]....the 144,000 sealed of God for protection ,selected from the 12 Tribes of Israel have been redeemed from among men Revelation 14:1-5 give more details.

TribulationSigns said:

and Christ is born in Revelation 12.

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Revelation 12 start with a history lesson ...and covers End Times events...

LittleLambofJesus said:

Has anyone noticed the 5 months in Reve 9 in comparison with the time the flood covered the earth in Gene 7:24:

Revelation 9:
5 and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months,
and their torment [is] as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;
6 And in those days shall men shall be seeking the death, and shall not shall be finding it
and shall be yearning/desiring to be dying and the death fleeing from them.
10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.

Genesis 7:24
And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

According to Josephus, it took about 5 months for the Roman army, from the time Titus encompassed Jerusalem, to the final destruction of the City, :

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.....................

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat pining with hunger on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus,
which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that, "as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should perish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death.

...............This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these

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As the prophecy doesn’t define what the scrorpions or 5 months are, everything at this point is just speculation.

But let’s speculate away

Locusts typically arrived Late March to early April and stayed through late August or early September, so basically 5 months. Interestingly enough the siege of Jerusalem lasted around 5 months around the same time that locusts would appear on the scene.

During sieges, Rome used siege engines called scorpios or scrorpions. They were used to launch large rocks or arrows at their targets.

Just a little fun fact. The 15th legion was present for the siege of Jerusalem. Rome’s 15 th legion was titled legion Xv apollinaris (Apollo’s 15th legion)

They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.
Revelation 9:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 9:11&version=ESV

LittleLambofJesus said:

Has anyone noticed the 5 months in Reve 9 in comparison with the time the flood covered the earth in Gene 7:24:

Revelation 9:
5 and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months,
and their torment [is] as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;
6 And in those days shall men shall be seeking the death, and shall not shall be finding it
and shall be yearning/desiring to be dying and the death fleeing from them.
10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.

Genesis 7:24
And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

According to Josephus, it took about 5 months for the Roman army, from the time Titus encompassed Jerusalem, to the final destruction of the City, :

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.....................

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat pining with hunger on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus,
which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that, "as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should perish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death.

...............This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these

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So was the Christ resurrection with the Landing of Noah's Ark on mountain .
Bible is filled with these stuff .

Have you event saw or heard a drone swarm?

Thankyou @TribulationSigns from you brother and servant in Christ Jesus.

I will study what you have written very deligently and try to grasp it all.

May I also PM you if I have a further question.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

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“Many there were indeed who sold what they had for one measure; it was of wheat, if they were of the richer sort; but of barley, if they were poorer. When these had so done, they shut themselves up in the inmost rooms of their houses, and ate the corn they had gotten; some did it without grinding it, by reason of the extremity of the want they were in, and others baked bread of it, according as necessity and fear dictated to them: a table was nowhere laid for a distinct meal, but they snatched the bread out of the fire, half-baked, and ate it very hastily” (Wars 5.10.2).

The Times said:

Thankyou @TribulationSigns from you brother and servant in Christ Jesus.

I will study what you have written very deligently and try to grasp it all.

May I also PM you if I have a further question.

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Yes

Riberra said:

Christ give an address to the 7 Churches that were in existence in the Roman Province of Asia in the time of John.. Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 cover this.

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There is nothing in scripture that would even come close to justifying your private interpretations of the 7 churches. The 7 churches are not a declaration that there weren't more, rather the number 7 is a token representing totality. In other words, these seven churches with warnings and proclamations of blessings, represent the universal church of all times and places. But to go beyond that and say that these churches are 7 physical churches in Asia during Roman times, or the church at Pergamos was the Indulged church (A.D. 312-606), or the Church in Philadelphia represents the Missionary Church (A.D. 1750-Rapture) is pure fantasy, assumption and speculation. Thus it is worthless as far as Bible exegesis is concerned!

Revelation 12 start with a history lesson ...and covers End Times events...

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A history lesson? And does this means that another chapters in Revelation are not a history lesson?

TribulationSigns said:

There is nothing in scripture that would even come close to justifying your private interpretations of the 7 churches. The 7 churches are not a declaration that there weren't more, rather the number 7 is a token representing totality. In other words, these seven churches with warnings and proclamations of blessings, represent the universal church of all times and places. But to go beyond that and say that these churches are 7 physical churches in Asia during Roman times,

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Revelation 1:4-11

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

TribulationSigns said:

But to go beyond that and say that these churches are 7 physical churches in Asia during Roman times, or the church at Pergamos was the Indulged church (A.D. 312-606), or the Church in Philadelphia represents the Missionary Church (A.D. 1750-Rapture) is pure fantasy,

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There is no RAPTURE of the Church to Heaven mentioned in the Bible ,so the Missionairy Church will be there to be part of the SAINTS who will be OVERCOME DURING THE 42 Months Reign of the Beast. Revelation 13:3-9
Revelation 13:3-9
5 and there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and there was given to him authority to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, [even] them that dwell in the heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, [every one] whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

9 If any man hath an ear, let him hear.

Riberra said:

Revelation 1:4-11

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

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Sigh...

The Gospel of Christ doesn't say to write to the seven physical churches to repent, it says write to the messengers of the Churches, more specifically PEOPLE of the congregation, that God has somewhat against them, and that they should repent. That's what the Gospel of Christ said!

Again, do you actually realize that the number seven in Scripture is the number of totality or completion. It's a number used throughout scripture! Seven messengers is not a proof of angelic beings or seven physical churches in Revelation 1-3. Did you ever bother to read about the seven horns, seven vials, seven kings, seven mountains, seven heads, seven plagues, seven crowns, seven thunders, seven trumpets, seven eyes, seven spirits, seven seals, seven lamps, seven stars, etc., There's no time here to give a lesson on the number seven since I ALREADY explained this before. Do you need to think why the lamb has seven eyes, for example? The lamb "is" Jesus and he has seven eyes. It means Christ sees all or completely (seven) into all parts of the earth. Didn't you research about it in Scripture?

Proverbs 15:3

• "The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good."

Does it means that Jesus, as lamb, will have seven literal eyes, or that he will totally see all things? Here we see the Spirit of God being omnipresent over the whole creation, and it is illustrated by the eyes being "everywhere." The eyes of the Lord are symbolic of His Spirit everywhere present in which He sees all.

LIKEWISE with seven churches!

I believe that the seven Churches located in Asia (what is now Turkey) represent the Church universal. Again, the number seven is a number that signifies the "totality" of whatever is in view. As the 7 Spirits, or 7 loaves, 7 brethren, 7 devils of Mary Magdalene, 7 seals of the book, the 7 thunders and so on and so forth. So when Christ speaks to the seven Churches in Revelation chapters two and three, He is ultimately speaking to the totality of Churches that existed during that era, the Churches that came after, and the Churches that exist today. He is demonstrating to the universal Church the blessings of obedience, and the certain judgment of the messengers who disobey. The message is, just because we are in a church doesn't mean that we are saved. People who are truly saved are not in willful lawlessness simply because they believe grace abounds.

Romans 6:15-17

• "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
• Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
• But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

The epistles of Revelation chapters 2 and 3 are an example both of the judgments that will come upon the church because of the spirit of disobedience, and of God's commanding the churches that hold fast the doctrines of Christ. A church cannot be a church in name only, else God will judge it and bring it down.

Luke 6:44

• "For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes."

Christians are known by their fruits, their works which is the fruit of the Spirit. We can call a bramble bush a Fig Tree, but to really be a fig tree, the tree must correspond to the fruit. I do not believe that these messages to the 7 churches are (as some suppose) illustrating that each church is representing a chronological dispensation, or seven distinct eras of church history. I do not believe that there is any real Biblical warrant or justification for this conclusion. You can find in the message to the church at Ephesus, the commending and warning to the church today, and you can equally find in the church of the Laodicea warnings to the church today. They do not only pertain to, or represent churches in distinct periods of time. i.e., when God warns the messenger of the church of Ephesus that if he doesn't repent, he will have his Candlestick (church) removed out of its place, He is talking to the church then, to the church a thousand years ago, and to the church today. He has divinely inspired this writing to a total collective or associated body and is warning them of the judgment of forsaking Him. Just as Christ would address Peter, John or Matthew and yet also be warning or encouraging the whole church or the church universal, who would read His words in the future. In other words, He, being Omniscient and inspiring the Bible, was talking to the totality of the church (signified by the number 7) and giving them notice. It's no coincidence that John wrote these epistles to only these "seven" churches in Asia. They are written as examples for all churches that we take all heed so that in our arrogance we might think we stand, lest we fall. ..as Israel before us did.

1st Corinthians 10:10-12

• "Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
• Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
• Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

Thus all the church should remember their first love, lest they fall after this same example. Likewise, when a letter is addressed to each of the seven [aggelos] or messengers (not angels) of the churches, it does not mean that it is only for those particular messengers exclusively. But to all God's Messengers of all His churches that would exist throughout the world, throughout history. When John, under inspiration of God wrote to the messenger of each church, it is understood to be the divinely inspired word of God to the messengers of the churches throughout history.

TribulationSigns said:

Sigh...

The Gospel of Christ doesn't say to write to the seven physical churches to repent, it says write to the messengers of the Churches, more specifically PEOPLE of the congregation, that God has somewhat against them, and that they should repent. That's what the Gospel of Christ said!

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Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 concerned the things which were soon to come to pass ...ie a judgment of God upon the 7 Churches that were in existence in Asia.

Revelation 4 and beyond concern the things which are to happen thereafter, which cover the period of time since Jesus ascended to Heaven until His Second Coming and beyond.

-First Seal :the Gospel being preached upon the whole Earth... still in action
-Second Seal :the wars who plague humanity ...still in action.
-Third Seal: The Famines who periodically plagues humanity

Riberra said:

Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 concerned the things which were to come soon ...ie a judgment of God upon the 7 Churches that were in existence in Asia.

Revelation 4 and beyond concern the things which are to happen thereafter .

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Really? Let take a look at the church of the Laodiceans:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Are you saying these verses do not apply to us today? Because it only applies to one of seven physical churches in Asia before the rest of the book of Revelation can be fulfilled? Your understanding of Revelation 2-4 is seriously flawed!