LDS Mormon View of the Bible

Daniel Marsh

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So you're saying that a group can't use their own materials to explain their own theology?

What would you do if someone told you to explain your personal theology without using the Bible?

Yes, they can use their own primary sources to explain their teachings. I even quoted a D&C text that LDS use.

But, to prove the claim they need to use the Bible because non-LDS here to my knowledge do not accept LDS sources as authoritative.

I am asking whoever made the claim to prove it from what we believe to be authoritative. If anyone wants to discuss what is authoritative alert me and I will start a thread on it.

I am aware that LDS persons will quote figurative texts as literal from the Bible to try to prove their case. Using the same out of context quoting method one can made God a big bird so to speak. So, that is not really proof.

One need only consult the combination reference by eldin ricks to see the proof texting.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully (Deuteronomy 4:15).

The Apostle Paul wrote.

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen (1 Timothy 1:17).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1298.cfm
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1298.cfm
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God~s-Wings

Deuteronomy 18:21-22:

"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
 
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He is the way

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Jesus saw men and women as equals.

Luke 13
10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.
I also see men and women as equals. Women are not in the image of men.
 
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He is the way

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Lost the post in this thread, but it is the responsibility of the person claiming something is affirmative. It is up to LDS to prove that God the Father was a resurrected human. One claiming the negative does not have to prove their claim, esp., since the Bible does not claim what LDS claim.

For example, an Atheist claims there is no God, but since us Theists claims that God exists, it is up to us to give the proofs that he does in fact exist.

The Negative simply points out the lack of proof that one making the affirmative and does not have to prove God does not exist.
Did you prove to atheists that God does exist?
 
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He is the way

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Numbers 23:19-20 New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
19 God isn’t a mere human. He can’t lie.
He isn’t a human being. He doesn’t change his mind.
He speaks, and then he acts.
He makes a promise, and then he keeps it.
20 He has commanded me to bless Israel.
He has given them his blessing. And I can’t change it.

Now, try and prove your claim from the Bible Alone because we do not accept your extra books as authoritative.
God is not a human, He is a spiritual resurrected being.
 
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He is the way

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"Anthropomorphites maintain their doctrine in defiance of verses, such as John 4:24, where Jesus teaches us: "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." This means God has no body, because a spirit is, by nature, an incorporeal being. As Jesus tells us elsewhere, "a spirit has not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39).

...

Tatian the Syrian



"Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things" (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).



Athenagoras



"I have sufficiently demonstrated that we are not atheists, since we acknowledge one God, unbegotten, eternal, invisible, incapable of being acted upon, incomprehensible, unbounded, who is known only by understanding and reason, who is encompassed by light and beauty and spirit and indescribable power, by whom all things, through his Word, have been produced and set in order and are kept in existence" (Plea for the Christians 10 [A.D. 177]).



Irenaeus



"Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light, all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God" (Against Heresies 2:13:3 [A.D. 189]).



Clement of Alexandria



"The first substance is everything which subsists by itself, as a stone is called a substance. The second is a substance capable of increase, as a plant grows and decays. The third is animated and sentient substance, as animal, horse. The fourth is animate, sentient, rational substance, as man. Wherefore each one of us is made as consisting of all, having an immaterial soul and a mind, which is the image of God" (Fragment from On Providence [A.D. 200]).

"Being is in God. God is divine being, eternal and without beginning, incorporeal and illimitable, and the cause of what exists. Being is that which wholly subsists. Nature is the truth of things, or the inner reality of them. According to others, it is the production of what has come to existence; and according to others, again, it is the providence of God, causing the being, and the manner of being, in the things which are produced" (ibid.).

"What is God? ‘God,’ as the Lord says, ‘is a spirit.’ Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth. And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself" (ibid.).

"No one can rightly express him wholly. For on account of his greatness he is ranked as the All, and is the Father of the universe. Nor are any parts to be predicated of him. For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form" (Miscellanies 5:12 [A.D. 208]).



Origen



"Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind" (Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 [A.D. 225]).

"John says in the gospel, ‘No one has at any time seen God,’ clearly declaring to all who are able to understand, that there is no nature to which God is visible, not as if he were indeed visible by nature, and merely escaped or baffled the view of a frailer creature, but because he is by nature impossible to be seen" (ibid. 1:1:8).



Athanasius



"God, however, being without parts, is Father of the Son without division and without being acted upon. For neither is there an effluence from that which is incorporeal, nor is there anything flowering into him from without, as in the case of men. Being simple in nature, he is Father of one only Son" (Letter on the Council of Nicaea 11 [A.D. 350]).



Didymus the Blind



"God is simple and of an incomposite and spiritual nature, having neither ears nor organs of speech. A solitary essence and illimitable, he is composed of no numbers and parts" (The Holy Spirit 35 [A.D. 362]).



Hilary of Poitiers



"First it must be remembered that God is incorporeal. He does not consist of certain parts and distinct members, making up one body. For we read in the gospel that God is a spirit: invisible, therefore, and an eternal nature, immeasurable and self-sufficient. It is also written that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. For of these the members of a body consist, and of these the substance of God has no need. God, however, who is everywhere and in all things, is all-hearing, all-seeing, all-doing, and all-assisting" (Commentary on the Psalms 129[130]:3 [A.D. 365]).



Basil the Great



Augustine



"In created and changeable things what is not said according to substance can only be said according to accident. . . . In God, however, certainly there is nothing that is said according to accident, because in him there is nothing that is changeable, but neither is everything that is said of him according to substance" (The Trinity 5:5:6 [A.D. 408]).



Cyril of Alexandria




"When the divine Scripture presents sayings about God and remarks on corporeal parts, do not let the mind of those hearing it harbor thoughts of tangible things, but from those tangible things as if from things said figuratively let it ascend to the beauty of things intellectual, and rather than figures and quantity and circumscriptions and shapes and everything else that pertains to bodies, let it think on God, although he is above all understanding. We were speaking of him in a human way, for there is no other way in which we could think about the things that are above us" (Commentary on the Psalms 11[12]:3 [A.D. 429]).

"https://www.catholic.com/tract/god-has-no-body
(New Testament | 1 John 3:2)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 
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He is the way

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"Question: "Does God have a physical body?"

Answer:
Both the Bible and good philosophy report that God is non-physical - spirit. In John 4:24 it is said that God is spirit (see also Luke 24:39; Romans 1:20; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17). This is why no material thing was to be used to represent God (Exodus 20:4). But this can also be shown by reflecting on what God is. Philosophically the same truth comes through. All that is created is necessarily finite and limited. But the first cause (God) is uncreated, and therefore must be non-finite, or infinite. That which is beyond the finite must, by definition, be infinite, and the Bible states that God is beyond creation (1 Kings 8:27; Job 11:7-9; Isaiah 66:1-2; Colossians 1:17). That which is physical cannot be infinite - for you cannot add finite parts together until they reach infinity. Therefore God is spirit as opposed to physical/material in His Being. This does not mean He cannot localize a physical appearance. God is not composed of matter nor any other imaginable substance. He also cannot be measured, is not spatial, and has no true location (presence is a different concept)."https://www.gotquestions.org/God-physical-body.html
God is nothing? Even spirits are made of matter.
 
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He is the way

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This is where the LDS claim comes from, "God the Father and Jesus Christ, both perfected and glorified beings, possess tangible resurrected bodies of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22). "http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Physical_Body

Since D&C is not authoritative for us, this reference is not a proof to us.
It is proof that JS is a false prophet and false teacher.

2 Peter 1:12-16 New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

12 So I will always remind you of these things. I’ll do it even though you know them. I’ll do it even though you now have deep roots in the truth. 13 I think it is right for me to remind you. It is right as long as I live in this tent. I’m talking about my body. 14 I know my tent will soon be removed. Our Lord Jesus Christ has made that clear to me. 15 I hope that you will always be able to remember these things after I’m gone. I will try very hard to see that you do.

16 We told you about the time our Lord Jesus Christ came with power. But we didn’t make up clever stories when we told you about it. With our own eyes we saw him in all his majesty.

Isa. 8:20. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."

Colossians 2:8 Make sure no one controls you. They will try to control you by using false reasoning that has no meaning. Their ideas depend on human teachings. They also depend on the basic spiritual powers of this world. They don’t depend on Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 Suppose someone refuses to accept our teaching. They are not turning their back on us. They are turning their back on God. This same God gives you his Holy Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 [ Paul Warns Those Who Do Not Want to Work ] Brothers and sisters, here is a command we give you. We give it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keep away from every believer who doesn’t want to work and makes trouble. Keep away from any believer who doesn’t live up to the teaching you received from us.


2 Thessalonians 3:14 Keep an eye on anyone who doesn’t obey the teachings in our letter. Don’t have anything to do with that person. Then they will feel ashamed.


1 Timothy 1:3 [ Paul Warns Timothy to Oppose False Teachers ] Timothy, stay there in Ephesus. That is what I told you to do when I went into Macedonia. I want you to command certain people not to teach things that aren’t true.


1 Timothy 1:6 Some have turned from these teachings. They would rather talk about things that have no meaning.


1 Timothy 1:7 They want to be teachers of the law. And they are very sure about that law. But they don’t know what they are talking about.

1 Timothy 4:2Teachings like those come from liars who pretend to be what they are not. Their sense of what is right and wrong has been destroyed. It’s as though it has been burned with a hot iron.

1 Timothy 6:1 All who are forced to serve as slaves should consider their masters worthy of full respect. Then people will not speak evil things against God’s name and against what we teach.

1 Timothy 6:3
Suppose someone teaches something different than I have taught. Suppose that person doesn’t agree with the true teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. Suppose they don’t agree with godly teaching.

2 Timothy 2:14 [ What to Do About False Teachers ] Keep reminding God’s people of these things. While God is watching, warn them not to argue about words. That doesn’t have any value. It only destroys those who listen.

2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to please God. Be a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed. Teach the message of truth correctly.

2 Timothy 2:17 Their teaching will spread like a deadly sickness. Hymenaeus and Philetus are two of those teachers.


2 Timothy 4:3 The time will come when people won’t put up with true teaching. Instead, they will try to satisfy their own desires. They will gather a large number of teachers around them. The teachers will say what the people want to hear.

Titus 1:11
They must be stopped. They are making trouble for entire families. They do this by teaching things they shouldn’t. They do these things to cheat people.

2 Peter 2:1 [ False Teachers Will Be Destroyed ] But there were also false prophets among the people. In the same way there will be false teachers among you. In secret they will bring in teachings that will destroy you. They will even turn against the Lord and Master who died to pay for their sins. So they will quickly destroy themselves.

2 Peter 2:2 Many people will follow their lead. These people will do the same evil things the false teachers do. They will cause people to think badly about the way of truth.

2 Peter 2:3 These teachers are never satisfied. They want to get something out of you. So they make up stories to take advantage of you. They have been under a sentence of death for a long time. The God who will destroy them has not been sleeping.

1 John 4:4 Dear children, you belong to God. You have not accepted the teachings of the false prophets. That’s because the one who is in you is powerful. He is more powerful than the one who is in the world.

2 John 1:9 Suppose someone thinks they know more than we do. So they don’t follow Christ’s teaching. Then that person doesn’t belong to God. But whoever follows Christ’s teaching belongs to the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10 Suppose someone comes to you and doesn’t teach these truths. Then don’t take them into your house or welcome them.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really part of us. If they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. But by going out from us, they showed they all are not part of us.

1 John 4:6 We are from God. The person who knows God listens to us. Whoever is not from God doesn’t listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Since we listen to John and the other prophets of God we are of God.
 
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Rescued One

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I also see men and women as equals. Women are not in the image of men.

Women are being conformed to the image of Christ. All of the Church is the body and bride of Christ.
 
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mmksparbud

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Women are becoming men?


Where in the OT does it say say women are to conform to the image of a heavenly mother?? What does the OT say about a heavenly mother? What did Jesus say about we being the children of the Heavenly Father and a heavenly mother? What does the OT say about the Heavenly Father having been a man before becoming human? Where in the OT does it talk about humanity being unable to reproduce until after the fall?
 
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He is the way

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Where in the OT does it say say women are to conform to the image of a heavenly mother?? What does the OT say about a heavenly mother? What did Jesus say about we being the children of the Heavenly Father and a heavenly mother? What does the OT say about the Heavenly Father having been a man before becoming human? Where in the OT does it talk about humanity being unable to reproduce until after the fall?
Does the Old Testament contain everything? Where in the Old Testament is baptism mentioned? Where in the Old Testament is the resurrection mentioned? I don't believe God is human.
 
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mmksparbud

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Does the Old Testament contain everything? Where in the Old Testament is baptism mentioned? Where in the Old Testament is the resurrection mentioned? I don't believe God is human.

I ask about the OT because of what your scriptures say: They state that the Bible, has had much taken from it. And that " many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away."And after these plain and precious things were takenaway it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters..."

This happens after the 12 apostles--so therefore--since the Dead Sea Scrolls have proven that the OT that Jesus had is the same one that we have today---then Jesus must have known about these great truths from reading the OT. If He said anything about these "plain and precious th9ngs"---0then the great abominable church took them away from the book ---but apparently did not touch the OT. So Jesus would have learned these things from reading the OT, that is what He read, believed and taught.
"It is written" is said 63 times in the NT---which means the OT.

And I did not ask what you believe-I asked where that belief comes from in the OT.


"26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were takenaway it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.[/QUOTE]
 
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