Is it truly bad to sin?

Kees Hogenbirk said:

Now that makes sense. So sin is not inherently bad, but the highest authority in this universe (God) simply sees it as bad and rewards or punishes us accordingly?

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We chose to see nakedness as shameful...God was fine with it. Yet after we thought it was bad.....He gave us a covering.......This made us feel better about it....Yet didnt change Him and how He feels.

God only gives us what we want and ask for. You decide After the fact if it was a reward or punishment. But at the end of the day it was you who asked for it. At the end of the day, if you don't like the world you asked for and made for yourself, you are allowed to flood it out and start anew.....

So many threads have 20-80 posts.. this right now 200. Is it truly bad to sin. Well if we know Christ as lord then our Father hates sin. It will never ever ever enter heaven. We are not of this world. Sinning was the formal life of this world. Not the one we cling onto. We that are BORN of God do not sin. Nor do we want to. Our FLESH DOES.. but not us

Kees Hogenbirk said:

I control me. But what is "I"?
A book = a collection of pages with text written on them
A tree = a large natural pillar made of wood with leaves on it
A window = a glass part of a wall which is used to see through it
An "I" = ???

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Some things are self-evident, without definition. "I" is one of those things.

Kees Hogenbirk said:

Hello men and women of God! This is my first post here.

I have been thinking a lot lately about the nature of sin, and I would dearly appreciate it if you guys would help me with answering this question. So thank you in advance!

Here is my question. Plain and simply: "Is sinning bad?"
Of course we all assume that sinning is bad, because it is written in the bible, but there are some questions that lead me to doubt that. Namely...

"Why did God create evil and sin in this world?"
You could say that that God did not create us to do evil, but that he gave us free will, so that if we choose evil, we face the consequences and it we choose good, we are rewarded with God's grace.

But then here is my real question: "If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then why does he create people that he knows will sin? And is sinning then really bad?"
Let's say God creates a person and grants him free will. However, God also created that person with a mental instability / weak will (which, let's assume makes him prone to murderous acts). Subsequently, let's say God then also places that person in an environment with abusive parents at home and frequent bullying at school (which, let's assume, combined with his mental instability causes him to commit murder) And so, he shoots up his class. This is an example, but I'm sure cases like this have actually happened in real life.
In such a case, can the murderer then really be held responsible for his actions? I mean,
-(1) He was born and raised with triggers that would undoubtedly (to God) lead him to commit a murderous act.
-(2) God, while all-powerful and all-knowing knew he would murder, yet did nothing about the sinful act.
If God created the person's will and circumstance, knew the outcome of his sin, and did nohing about it, was is then truly 'bad' for the murderer to commit murder?

"Is sinning bad?" may sound like a strange question, but I am seriously pondering it, and I would appreciate it greatly if you fellow Christians would help me out. So thanks!

Greets, Kees

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Romans 9:10-23 ESV And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, (11) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— (12) she was told, "The older will serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Kees Hogenbirk said:

Finally, thank you for your patience with me. I know I can we a lot to handle in a conversation sometimes, but I really want to know WHY it is that I should listen to god and NOT to sin, while both forces are directing me to different paths.
If i were to follow God without knowing why following him, and not sin is the right thing to do, I would never be able to follow him in my heart of hearts. That is just how I see it.

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Thank you for listening and having a humble, teachable spirit. You wouldn't be here asking these questions if you didn't value God and if you weren't at least a little sincere. You wanting to know why exactly God is the right choice to follow Him with all you've got is a very understandable reason, please excuse me if I sounded harsh, but this is a grave matter.

Kees Hogenbirk said:

My last question then is (and I am absolutely serious about this): "What option should I take, good or evil?"
I get it, God makes me want to do good, and the force of sin wants to make me do evil.
But HOW do I know that I should listen to God, and not the force of sin?
If I were to ask God whether I should take the path to good or evil, he would undoubtedly answer with "the path to good". But if I were to ask the same question to the force of sin, it would probably tell me that I should sin and take the path of evil.
Also, I FULLY UNDERSTAND that eternal suffering awaits me if I choose to disobey God, but does that make it THE WRONG OPTION?

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If you want the rational approach, let's do some analysis: What does God offer and what does sin, evil offer?

God offers:
• Getting to know GOD. A relationship with the Being above all values, the Creator Himself.
• Being a true son, a daughter of God through Christ.
• All the beauty that you can perceive of the created world, in its purest form, belongs to Him and is offered by Him. No other Creators, everything else is a creation, nobody else truly owns anything unless given by God.
• An eternal life. Endless time to pursue after endless knowledge, interests of the creation, interacting with eternal souls, all kinds of creatures, growing in wisdom, partaking in creating and experiencing music, all kinds of art forms, all kinds of inventions, all kinds of places, all kinds of adventure, all kinds of good feelings, all kinds of endlessly expansive things that are good at the purest form.
• Being able to observe every single thing that has happened on earth in the past, and is currently going on, and a promise to partake in what's next in future from a position of a kingdom child.
• All of this without any restrictions or worries of time limitations.
• True peace and true joy, in this life and the next.
• Partaking in God's salvation, where you can save an eternal soul, your beloved ones from eternal death. That's more than just gaining an eternal friend, it's gratitude of God the Father Almighty in saving of His child.
• The constant yearning of your spirit, the hole in your deepest heart, the seeking of wisdom of your mind satisfied and filled with the only One that can.
• God the Creator Himself will continue on creating after the day of judgement. Endless possibilities to marvel and endless joys to partake in.
• "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 1 Corinthians 2:9
• Being able to partake in His sufferings, and thus partake in His eternal joy thereafter. (Partaking in the suffering of the Lord may not sound appealing, yet once you step into it there is great joy in holy suffering, which is but temporary)
• Colors you've never seen of, music and frequencies you've never heard of, places you've never seen, food you've never tasted, interests you've never been able to expand on; all available for an eternity.
• Ephesians 3:19 "And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

Honestly at this point I've realized I can go on endlessly about reasons to choose God, but at some point I have to stop.

"Negatives" to following God:
• No temporary pleasure from sin in a temporary plane.
• ???

Sin offers:
• Temporary pleasure from sin in a temporary plane that never satisfies and calls for more and more.
• Temporary wordly gain.
• ???

Negatives to following after sin/evil:
• Being a slave to sin and the endless discomfort and corruption it brings.
• ENDLESS, UTTER despair, regret and suffering.

You can also sit down and make a list for yourself. I think it is of great benefit to just see in concrete, just what am I exchanging what for? Where's the benefit of my sin I've committed last Thursday? Where's the pleasure? When my heart and my soul fails me, will the sins of my past console me? Will I even remember what pleasure is in a hospital bed? Or in burning flames? Does the pleasure of my yesterday mean anything at all to me in the present? Is past nothings worth an eternal everything? Have my sins helped me in accomplishing the highest desire of my deepest heart? Or have they destroyed and corrupted me day by day until I no longer even like my own self? Am I okay with searing the voice of God to the point where I become guideless, a slave to sin, completely and utterly subject to desire to the point where I have no control over myself and what I see and am exposed to altogether controls and possesses me?

But beyond human rationale, what is more important is, if you only take a small step towards God and get to know His love, you will not look back. I can type what about what having a relationship with the Holy Spirit is like but I won't do it justice.

Kees Hogenbirk said:

Also, I FULLY UNDERSTAND that eternal suffering awaits me if I choose to disobey God, but does that make it THE WRONG OPTION?
I just want to know, is sinning INHERENTLY bad, or is ONLY bad in the eyes of our Lord?
Because the force of sin itself probably doesn't think that it itself is BAD, otherwise it would not exist.
For example: A communist would probably tell me that communism is the right option.
But a capitalist would probaly tell me that capitalism is the right option.
God tells me that good is the right option. The force of sin tells me that sin/evil is the right option.
How do I know who is INHERENTLY right?

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You must understand that God is a not just a Being sitting on a throne somewhere, not just another living thing within existence. He IS the Existence. He IS the Inherent. The Holy Bible tells us that "we live, move and have our being in Him" (Acts 17:28). He IS the LIFE, the Essence, the Actual, the Aliveness. As He Himself says "I AM THAT I AM". Bad in the sight of the Lord and inherently bad are not exclusive, they are one and the same. Bad in His sight is bad in life itself, bad in His sight means it is a lie, bad in His sight means that way leads to not life but destruction.

A communist and people in general are prone to error. God is not.
God has your well being and good in mind, and wants to provide what is best. Evil does not.
The "Force of Sin" knows exactly what he's doing and understands it is bad. You can deceive a well intentioned person into believing an evil ideology through deceit, but you don't become the Devil without knowing exactly what you are doing. You yourself have confessed that your higher self is warning you and calling you to better things, your spirit testifies to the Lord, who is the Truth.

If you wish to understand who is right, just judge the fruit and count the costs. Only One has your well being and goodness in mind. Only One loves you and cares about you on a personal level. Only One promises and keeps it. Only One think about you every day with countless thoughts, all for your good and for a future of hope. Only One counted His life for nothing in hopes of receiving and rejoicing in you one day, only One let go of His endless treasures to receive humiliation, pain and suffering for your sake. The other will throw you into flames if it means adding a single cent to his passing, disappearing kingdom of smoke. The other is plain loss and destruction.

My case is, on every level, the choice is clear and simple: God wins. I don't think there is any contest.

Kees, as long as you are going after the truth and wanting to understand while being sincere about it, God won't let you be devoured by darkness, because He is faithful and eager to have a relationship to show how much He loves you. If you give less than half the time you spend here to sit down and talk to God about what is on your mind and heart, He will give you more understanding than you could get from reading ten thousand posts here. If you take away anything from this, may it be that you sit down right now and talk to God for 10 minutes, with no masks, being completely honest, and let Him fill you with peace that passes all understanding.

Blade said:

So many threads have 20-80 posts.. this right now 200. Is it truly bad to sin. Well if we know Christ as lord then our Father hates sin. It will never ever ever enter heaven. We are not of this world. Sinning was the formal life of this world. Not the one we cling onto. We that are BORN of God do not sin. Nor do we want to. Our FLESH DOES.. but not us

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Finally one person that understood it

Kees Hogenbirk said:

Agreed. But did God create the sinful desires that exist in our own free will, then?

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No, as I think of it. Rather this is the only possible way 'nature' of reproducing animals and humans who are in any moment of natural competition and the natural 'winners/losers' of nature can be in their fleshy instincts.

We are to leave those nature urges -- the "flesh" Paul calls it -- and instead by faith walk in the Spirit as Paul worded it in Romans Christ 8.

Invalidusername said:

I understand. However the poster I argued with said that it only means your "unknown sins" are forgiven. This is unscriptual. Check the context of the argument next time.

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All sin before coming to Christ, whether you are a serial killer or whatever, are cleansed, and at that point, you are given a new nature that desires to do righteousness, and cannot sin if you are walking in the Spirit. If from your free will you quench the Spirit and willfully commit sin after that, you will need to do the first works over again.

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. Revelation 2:5. They are not automatically cleansed as transgressions are when we forgive the transgressions of others 1 John 1:7. And don't forget, transgressions are unintentional Leviticus 5:15.

Melissa Suzanne said:

All I've said so far is that we're saved by grace

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What is the definition of grace? Is it the same after justification as it was before?

Melissa Suzanne said:

Grace through forgiveness covers us when we mess up...Grace saved us from sin but Jesus died because he knew we would make mistakes in the future. His blood covers us when we sin.

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Where does it say that grace "covers" sin after becoming a Christian? Only the blood of bulls was said to "cover" sins, but could never "take away" the whole sin nature. That is what the blood of Jesus accomplished.

Kees Hogenbirk said:

But if God created our fleshly desires to sin, then why is it bad to act according to them (i.e. inappropriate contentography)?

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?so is this whole topic a search for justification of ones chosen behavior

dreadnought said:

Some things are self-evident, without definition. "I" is one of those things.

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Is it so simple that it cant be explained? Can you tell us who you are...?

RaymondG said:

Is it so simple that it cant be explained? Can you tell us who you are...?

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Yes.

Alithis said:

incorrect sorry ... confession without repentance is just admitting you've done wrong are doing wrong and plan to keep on rebelling .
Jesus said REPENTANCE for the forgiveness of sin will be preached . if we don't turn TOO god and AWAY from our sin ,then there is NO forgiveness. because if you keep going one direction of sin then your actions show that your lying to God about repenting to go HIS way you cant go both directions at the same time you can serve two masters ... so your just adding lying to all the other sin .
such a person is coming to god and saying sorry God for the sin i did on Friday night that i'm going to do again on Monday night right after iv got sunday church out of my system .
and spitting in Gods face time and time again . saying look at me god, i want you to forgive me for NOT repenting after the last time i asked you to forgive me ... i lied to you god but hey you have to forgive me ...
lies upon lies upon lies
-without repentance there is no forgiveness for sin. and the scripture says we are forgiven of all past offence .. so we can rise up and live a new life not going BACK to the life we lived before .the scripture is FULL of reminders about this and warning about it too

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Alithis I agree with everything you just said. I don't know what I said that you're pointing to that makes you believe otherwise. All I said was we will still make mistakes as Christians. But we don't willfully sin, that's taking advantage of God's grace and I'm completely against that. All I'm saying is I don't believe you become perfect and never sin again when you become Christian. We will stumble even as we strive for obedience, and that's what forgiveness is for. Romans is clear that grace is intended to save us from living in sin. It seems as though small words are being taken out of my comments and taken out of context. Every Christian makes mistakes, but that is completely different than not striving to be obedient at all and thinking God forgives that lifestyle. That's what you're accusing me of supporting and no where in my comments do I say that. I believe in grace to LEAVE sin and be holy, but we will make mistakes that is why we have forgiveness. No way ever did I justify sin.

Kees Hogenbirk said:

I see. But then where did Satan's desire to sin come from?

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Hm. Good point.

1stcenturylady said:

What is the definition of grace? Is it the same after justification as it was before?



Where does it say that grace "covers" sin after becoming a Christian?



It is called righteous indignation. I hate it when people believe false teachers and don't bother searching the scriptures for themselves to find out if their teachings are scriptural and true. And especially this false teaching on sin. It breeds apathy, and it is a slap in the face of Jesus to not recognize the fullness of what He suffered and died to accomplish for us.

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"Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us". Sanctification is an ongoing process. We will not become completely perfect until we get to heaven. That is part of how Christ taught us how to pray. Continually. We as Christians are to confess our sins to him because we still battle with the flesh. It's called spiritual warfare. No Christian has arrived. No one is justifying sin here. I'm saying I'm a Christian in need of forgiveness when I stumble. We all do. Saying you become perfect after you become saved is pretty much saying you don't need forgiveness. I understand the weight of what Jesus did for me, and I don't believe we sin because we want to but because we're being sanctified and it's a process.
Confession is an ongoing thing in the life of a Christian. We need it. Only by confession through sincere and remorse confession by his sacrifice are we forgiven and covered. Confession does by no means mean that we don't take to heart God's sacrifice or take advantage of his grace. You are assuming because one believes that Christians make mistakes means they believe in abusing grace.

Im glad you clarified somewhat . and yes the reason i thought you may have meant otherwise is because that doctrine is SO WIDESPREAD and the verses in 1 john taken so out of context SO OFTEN that the few who seek to correct it and preach the less comfortable truth fall into a pattern of assuming the false version is what people are referring to.
the popular version implies and is seldom corrected that its ok , every time a person does that particular sin again and again and again that there is automatic forgiveness . but this is ONLY so for the person who DOES NOT REALIZE that it is a sin . which is what we term a BABY in the faith.
they must not STAY as a baby they are to grow up .
now when we have a baby we tolerate unacceptable behavior of all kinds ...not having the expectation that the baby can do much else .
for example .. a 2 month old baby makes that red face followed by the sound of wind and liquid better known as POOPING in thier pants - and al the adults in the room smile knowingly ,sigh and clean it up.
now would that same behavior receive the same gracious reaction if they are 19 years old ?
NO , they have grown and a much higher expectation of behavior is now upon them and such behavior of a 19yr old pooping in their pants during bible study ( or arriving there with POOP in their spiritual pants being SIN) would invoke outright REBUKE and disgust and if they kept doing it they would be PUT OUT OF THE FELLOWSHIP.
and this is actually how we are supposed to view and deal with SIN .with rebuke and disgust and finally eviction.then later if they quit and clean up we are to love them back in again .. WITHOUT THEIR POOP stinking us all up and corrupting everything .

and yet because of the luke warm noncommittal man pleasing doctrines of hypergrace we have a generation of self professing Christians who are like 19 to 30 years old pooping in their pants all the time and being taught its fine its fine just keep saying sorry .. IT NOT OK.
and one result? ,we get threads effectively asking .is it ok for me as 20+ year old to poop in my pants .aka "is it truly bad to sin".

Melissa Suzanne said:

Alithis I agree with everything you just said. I don't know what I said that you're pointing to that makes you believe otherwise. All I said was we will still make mistakes as Christians. But we don't willfully sin, that's taking advantage of God's grace and I'm completely against that. All I'm saying is I don't believe you become perfect and never sin again when you become Christian. We will stumble even as we strive for obedience, and that's what forgiveness is for. Romans is clear that grace is intended to save us from living in sin. It seems as though small words are being taken out of my comments and taken out of context. Every Christian makes mistakes, but that is completely different than not striving to be obedient at all and thinking God forgives that lifestyle. That's what you're accusing me of supporting and no where in my comments do I say that. I believe in grace to LEAVE sin and be holy, but we will make mistakes that is why we have forgiveness. No way ever did I justify sin.

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1stcenturylady said:

Scriptures please.

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"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1-3

Alithis said:

Im glad you clarified somewhat . and yes the reason i thought you may have meant otherwise is because that doctrine is SO WIDESPREAD and the verses in 1 john taken so out of context SO OFTEN that the few who seek to correct it and preach the less comfortable truth fall into a pattern of assuming the false version is what people are referring to.
the popular version implies and is seldom corrected that its ok , every time a person does that particular sin again and again and again that there is automatic forgiveness . but this is ONLY so for the person who DOES NOT REALIZE that it is a sin . which is what we term a BABY in the faith.
they must not STAY as a baby they are to grow up .
now when we have a baby we tolerate unacceptable behavior of all kinds ...not having the expectation that the baby can do much else .
for example .. a 2 month old baby makes that red face followed by the sound of wind and liquid better known as POOPING in thier pants - and al the adults in the room smile knowingly ,sigh and clean it up.
now would that same behavior receive the same gracious reaction if they are 19 years old ?
NO , they have grown and a much higher expectation of behavior is now upon them and such behavior of a 19yr old pooping in their pants during bible study ( or arriving there with POOP in their spiritual pants being SIN) would invoke outright REBUKE and disgust and if they kept doing it they would be PUT OUT OF THE FELLOWSHIP.
and this is actually how we are supposed to view and deal with SIN .with rebuke and disgust and finally eviction.then later if they quit and clean up we are to love them back in again .. WITHOUT THEIR POOP stinking us all up and corrupting everything .

and yet because of the luke warm noncommittal man pleasing doctrines of hypergrace we have a generation of self professing Christians who are like 19 to 30 years old pooping in their pants all the time and being taught its fine its fine just keep saying sorry .. IT NOT OK.
and one result? ,we get threads effectively asking .is it ok for me as 20+ year old to poop in my pants .aka "is it truly bad to sin".

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Completely agree and glad I could clarify. That same thing frustrates me. I believe if we truly love God in the sanctification process we will continually become more like Christ. He's promised that if we love him and strive to obey Him His Spirit will be there to help us. This view about grace is so widespread today and it's not what the Bible teaches. It seems to justify us in sinning as if we are weak and we don't have to worry about it. But we can do all things through Christ's strength.

Melissa Suzanne said:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1-3

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ok these verses .. each has to be places in context of his whole letter.. ( i will use paraphrase to shorten typing )
so we see he speaks in his letters to three parties .. children/young men/ fathers .. three differing levels of maturity .
to the children he says i write these things that you might NOT SIN.. but if you mess up there is grace
he DOES NOT afford this grace to the young men and CERTAINLY NOT to the fathers .
see the pattern .

now the contradiction which is NOT a contradiction in john is that he first says ..if we claim to be without sin we lie ..
then he says later if we confess our sin he forgives and cleanses us from ALL unrightousness.
if we are then so cleansed, how much unrighteousness is in us ? NONE! are we then without sin ?
no !..it means we are then completely CLEAR IN CONSCIENCE before God .

now double back .-who is it that convicts of sin and makes us aware of it ? GOD
SO if the lord comes to me who is living free from everything i KNOW to be sinful . ie -the basics of unambiguous sin outlined by the 10 commandments , i don't steal i don't bear false witness i don't sleep with my neighbors wife i dont murder etc
but then the Holy Spirit says to me -"hey when you keep looking at those images on the pc ..you are sinning ... NOW, if i say no lord your wrong .. (if i say i have no sin) then i lie because im calling GOD a liar . - but before he comes and says to me this is sinful and i am ignorant of it and my consciousness is clear then i'm not lying to say i have no sin because i'm not sinning against my conscience -you cant lie about something you are not even conscious of . but we become conscious of it BY the holy Spirit.
but once he tells me the truth of that matter and i now KNOW its sin . it would be a lie to say its not a sin and it would be extremely sinful to keep doing it .he is showing it to me so i can REPENT and STOP doing it . forever . because he can only lead us into all truth .never into more sin .
this making sense ?

we make mistakes but we dont DO any work of sin which we KNOW is sin (because God told us and we did not lie but admitted it and repented and ceased it )..by mistake .

in real life - i cannot look at inappropriate content on a pc ..and lust and commit adultery in my heart... by accident . its impossible. i have to to turn the pc on .. open the web browser , type or click the link ..etc you get the picture , none of it happens without my will .
to do such a thing now would for me be ..to WILLFULLY SIN .. and the lord would IMMEDIATELY hit me with horrid conviction well before i got any where near doing that and i would have to tell the goly SPIRIT to be quiet and go way from me and reject Christ in order to continue into that action of sin .. i would be crucifying my lord again .. and he cannot die again .. you see i was a child ,then i was a young man in the faith , but having overcome the evil one im a father in the faith and the grace afforded me as a baby is now NOT AVAILABLE to me .Only a fearful expectation of the wrath of GOD . the sins that are forgiven are the sins we don't even know we are committing -NEVER the ones we know about as SIN.

but the churches for the most part are teaching people to never grow up in the faith and to perish in their sin because it is impossible to follow Jesus in obedience and continue to practice sin

to any reading i say openly ..if you are not consistently walking OUT of practicing sin and INTO practicing righteousness then you are not BEING saved

Kees Hogenbirk said:

If God did not create disobedience, then where did it come from? Does that mean that there is something that God didn't create?

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God has chosen to give free will to His creations to choose either to do good or to do evil, to obey Him or to disobey Him.