Is the NASB really the most "literal" of the modern versions?

Episaw said:

Try it and it may not sound so pious. And it is a known fact that what you do speaks louder than what you say.

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I was talking about saving mankind by dying on the cross. I'm not going to "try it." That's ridiculous, if not downright blasphemous.

Radagast said:

And, if you can't do that, comparing a few good translations (e.g. ESV, NIV, CSB) is the best way to go.

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Which Greek text do you feel it the best. I would like another one to compare to the 4 texts I currently use. Name me one which you feel is the best. Thanks.

Not sure why some of those versions have (but thou are rich) when only the Greek word #G235 "but/yet" is missing in the T-R? Or am I missing something.
If anything, they should have ta erga kai (thy works and) like that. Thoughts?

English Standard Version
“‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
New American Standard Bible
'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
King James Bible
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan
Young's Literal Translation
I have known thy works, and tribulation, and poverty -- yet thou art rich -- and the evil-speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of the Adversary.


Stephens 1550/Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
oida sou ta erga kai thn qliyin kai thn ptwceian *** plousioV de ei
Byzantine Majority
oida sou ta erga kai thn qliyin kai thn ptwceian alla plousioV ei
Alexandrian
oida sou ******** thn qliyin kai thn ptwceian alla plousioV ei
Hort and Westcott
oida sou ** ****** thn qliyin kai thn ptwceian alla plousioV ei

Radagast said:

I was talking about saving mankind by dying on the cross. I'm not going to "try it." That's ridiculous, if not downright blasphemous.

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I wasn't talking about saving mankind.

Episaw said:

I wasn't talking about saving mankind.

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You were replying to the post in which I was.

Radagast said:

You were replying to the post in which I was.

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Doesn't alter the fact that I wasn't talking about saving mankind.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Which Greek text do you feel it the best.

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I use a fairly recent paper UBS Greek New Testament which lists textual variants, and a couple of different online Greek versions (my favourite is this).

Rev 2:9 ("standard" Greek and ESV): Οἶδά σου (I know your) τὴν θλῖψιν καὶ τὴν πτωχείαν (tribulation and your poverty), ἀλλὰ πλούσιος εἶ (but you are rich), καὶ τὴν βλασφημίαν ἐκ τῶν λεγόντων Ἰουδαίους εἶναι ἑαυτούς (and the slander/blasphemy of those who say that they are Jews), καὶ οὐκ εἰσὶν ἀλλὰ συναγωγὴ τοῦ σατανᾶ (and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan).

The Codex Sinaiticus has three extra words (probably inserted accidentally based on the other letters to churches): οιδα ϲου τα εργα και (ta erga kai = works and) την θλιψιν και την πτωχιαν αλλα πλουϲιοϲ ει και την βλαϲφημιαν την εκ των λεγοντων ϊουδαιων ειναι εαυτουϲ και ουκ ειϲιν αλλα ϲυναγωγη του ϲατανα.

The KJV follows the TR, which follows the Codex Sinaiticus on the three extra words: I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Not sure why some of those versions have (but thou are rich) when only the Greek word #G235 "but/yet" is missing in the T-R? Or am I missing something.

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The T-R uses a different word for "but" in "but you are rich" (G1161 δέ instead of G235 ἀλλά). In line with Greek grammar rules, δέ gets bumped along one word, so that it follows the word πλούσιος = rich.

Episaw said:

Doesn't alter the fact that I wasn't talking about saving mankind.

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The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

See? Replying to someone with a sentence unrelated to what they said is not actually very helpful at all.

Radagast said:

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

See? Replying to someone with a sentence unrelated to what they said is not actually very helpful at all.

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Ho hum.

Radagast said:

I use a fairly recent paper UBS Greek New Testament which lists textual variants, and a couple of different online Greek versions (my favourite is this).

The Codex Sinaiticus has three extra words (probably inserted accidentally based on the other letters to churches): οιδα ϲου τα εργα και (ta erga kai = works and) την θλιψιν και την πτωχιαν αλλα πλουϲιοϲ ει και την βλαϲφημιαν την εκ των λεγοντων ϊουδαιων ειναι εαυτουϲ και ουκ ειϲιν αλλα ϲυναγωγη του ϲατανα.

The KJV follows the TR, which follows the Codex Sinaiticus on the three extra words: I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

The T-R uses a different word for "but" in "but you are rich" (G1161 δέ instead of G235 ἀλλά). In line with Greek grammar rules, δέ gets bumped along one word, so that it follows the word πλούσιος = rich.

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I use a fairly recent paper UBS Greek New Testament which lists textual variants, and a couple of different online Greek versions (my favourite is this).

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I just looked at that site. Excellent!
Thanks.

You appear to use the koine/symbol Greek.
Do you ever use the transliterated Greek?

Here is Revelation 1:1:

New American Standard Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John

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Young's Literal Translation
A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

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Notice this translation uses every greek word in literal form.

Take for example "in swiftness".

The exact phrase "in swiftness" occurs in only 7 verses

The phrase "in swiftness" occurs 7 times.
Luke 18:8 , Acts 12:7 , Act 22:18 , Acts 25:4 , Romans 16:20 , Revelation 22:6 and Revelation 1:1 and Revelation 22:6

1722. en a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state),
5034. tachos from the same as 5036; a brief space (of time), i.e. (with 1722 prefixed) in haste:--+ quickly, + shortly, + speedily.

Reve 1:1 [Revelation 22:6]
An unveiling/revealing of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in/en <1722> swiftness/tacei <5034>
And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.

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Revelation 22:6 [Revelation 1:1]
And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True.
And Lord, the God of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in/en <1722> swiftness/tacei <5034>.

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Stephens 1550 /Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

1 Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεὸς δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ, ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ,

Frankyy said:

We've all seen the bible translation comparison charts, and often times the New American Standard Version (NASB) is far if not the furthest toward the "Word for Word" or literal side of the bible translation spectrum among the modern versions. What I've often found is while reading the NASB, in it's footnotes they have "Lit" renderings of certain words and passages. I then compare with a different translation such as the KJV, NKJV, ESV/RSV, and often times those actually render such words within the text itself. One example is Genesis 4:1 in reference to Adam and Eve where the NASB renders it as: "Now the man had relations with his wife Eve," footnotes "had relations with" as "Lit. knew". Translations such as the NKJV and ESV have it right in the text as "knew". Other examples can be found in this article.

My question is: When it is popularly suggested that the NASB is the "most" literal, are they taking into account and is it because of it's footnotes (what if we were comparing text-only/readers' edition/pew bibles)? Are these differences minor in comparison to the other ways NASB more literally renders other passages? Am I simply just understanding the terms "literally" and "word for word" incorrectly? How do you rate it's literalness among other modern translations? I look forward to all of your input.

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redleghunter said:

Don't know if the footnotes deal with all the literal rendering of the words.
However, as I mentioned on another thread the Lexham English Bible by Logos is probably the top pick now for literal word for word.

That's for modern versions.

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Just went to look that version up.
Very nice!

The Lexham English Bible is a new translation of the Bible into English.




The Lexham English Bible began life as an interlinear translation, based on the Lexham interlinear Bibles.

But these are interlinear translations with a twist: rather than provide only simple context-free glosses for each word (what you would typically find in a lexicon), these Lexham interlinears also provide a context-sensitive, grammatically informed translation of each word............

While many people work from the original language text to the translation in their study, several others who do not have skill in the original languages are relatively bound to the English text.
Interlinears, available separately, reveal the original language behind the English translation. If you have a Logos Bible Software base package, you can start with the LEB and easily discern the underlying original language text...................

The English and underlying Greek words are associated with one another. Using Logos Bible Software, it is easy to dig into lexicons, start searches, or dig even deeper using the Bible Word Study report.

A lexicon is a dictionary based on a particular body of work (a “corpus”). The pre-eminent lexicon for the New Testament is Frederick Danker’s A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (known as BDAG).
For example, during the LEB’s translation process, BDAG was consulted to ensure that the nuance and force of the translation was proper and verifiable. Other lexicons, such as Louw and Nida’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, proved immensely helpful as well.

The Lexham English Bible reveals the entire translation process. Follow the path from the original language, to the interlinear, to the English translation, and then back again with a reverse interlinear, available separately.
You’ll never find yourself wondering why the LEB translates a word or phrase a certain way. Identify idioms. Discover the tricky texts. See the difficult lexicographical choices. It’s all right there.

The entire translation process is focused and transparent. It was developed through an interlinear process using Logos Bible Software.
With an interlinear, available separately, you can work from the original languages to the LEB, or from the LEB back to the original languages.

The LEB closely follows the original while remaining readable in contemporary English. The style of the translation is relatively literal, which stems from the desire to have the English translation correspond transparently to the original language text.
The translators attempt—within these constraints—to produce a clear and readable English translation instead of a woodenly literal one.

redleghunter said:

Don't know if the footnotes deal with all the literal rendering of the words. However, as I mentioned on another thread the Lexham English Bible by Logos is probably the top pick now for literal word for word.

That's for modern versions.

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Love the siggy picture.

May I use it? Would go great with the events of Jonah and Jesus.
I just gotta find one with Jonah and the ship.

What about Jonah

Jonah 1: [Matthew 8:23]
4 Then the LORD hurled a violent wind upon the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship was in danger of breaking apart
5 The sailors were afraid, and each cried out to his own god. And they threw the ship’s cargo into the sea to lighten the load. But Jonah had gone down to the lowest part of the vessel, where he lay down and fell into a deep sleep.
15 And they lift up Jonah, and cast him into the sea, and the sea ceaseth from its raging;

(YLT)Matt 8:23 [Jonah 1:5]
24 and Behold!, a great tempest arose in the sea, so that the boat was being covered by the waves, but He was sleeping,
25 and his disciples having come to him, awoke Him, saying, `Sir, save us! we are perishing!'
26 And he saith to them, `Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?' Then having risen, he rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm;

LittleLambofJesus said:

Do you ever use the transliterated Greek?

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Simply replacing Greek words by English ones doesn't work, because the grammar rules differ

LittleLambofJesus said:

apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

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This is what you get from old web sites that use an obsolete approach to displaying Greek. It's basically mangled.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεὸς δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ, ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ,

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This makes more sense to me.

LittleLambofJesus said:

I just looked at that site. Excellent!
Thanks.

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Blue Letter Bible is very good too. They use a mix of Greek texts and translations.

Radagast said:

Simply replacing Greek words by English ones doesn't work, because the grammar rules differ

This is what you get from old web sites that use an obsolete approach to displaying Greek. It's basically mangled.

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LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεὸς δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ, ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ,

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This makes more sense to me.

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That is fine. I would like to get into the Hebrew language, but with the LXX available, I don't see any hurry.

Concerning the Greek, I find this verse rather fascinating

Young's Literal Translation
Revelation 9:11 [Luke 23:38]
and they have over them a king -- the messenger of the abyss -- a name is to him in Hebrew, Abaddon, and in the Greek/Grecian he hath a name, Apollyon.

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Stephens 1550/Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai ecousin ep autwn basilea ton aggelon thV abussou onoma autw ebraisti abaddwn kai en th ellhnikh onoma ecei apolluwn
11 ἔχουσιν ἐπ’ αὐτῶν βασιλέα τὸν ⸃ ἄγγελον τῆς ἀβύσσου · ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἑβραϊστὶ Ἀβαδδών καὶ ἐν ⸃ τῇ Ἑλληνικῇ ὄνομα ἔχει Ἀπολλύων.

So I then look up where those words are used in the NT
#1673 is used in only 2 verses, Reve 9:11 and Luke 23:28

Luke 23:28 [Revelation 9:11]
36 And mocking him also were the soldiers, coming near and offering vinegar to him,
37 and saying, ‘If Thou be the king of the Jews, save Thyself.’
38 And there was also a superscription written over Him,
in letters of Greek, and Roman, and Hebrew, ‘This is the King of the Jews.’

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1447. Hebraisti heb-rah-is-tee' adverb from 1446; Hebraistically or in the Jewish (Chaldee) language:--in (the) Hebrew (tongue).
1673. Hellenikos hel-lay-nee-kos' from 1672; Hellenic, i.e. Grecian (in language):--Greek

LittleLambofJesus said:

That is fine. I would like to get into the Hebrew language, but with the LXX available, I don't see any hurry.

Concerning the Greek, I find this verse rather fascinating

Young's Literal Translation
Revelation 9:11 [Luke 23:38]
and they have over them a king -- the messenger of the abyss -- a name is to him in Hebrew, Abaddon, and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon.

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That word Ἑβραϊστί (Hebraisti) could mean Aramaic (what older lexicons call "Chaldee") here -- several of the words described in the New Testament as Ἑβραϊστί are actually Aramaic, not Hebrew. Then again, "Abaddon" might indeed be Hebrew.

LittleLambofJesus said:

I would like to get into the Hebrew language, but with the LXX available, I don't see any hurry.

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Yeah, me too.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Love the siggy picture.

May I use it? Would go great with the events of Jonah and Jesus.
I just gotta find one with Jonah and the ship.

What about Jonah

Jonah 1: [Matthew 8:23]
4 Then the LORD hurled a violent wind upon the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship was in danger of breaking apart
5 The sailors were afraid, and each cried out to his own god. And they threw the ship’s cargo into the sea to lighten the load. But Jonah had gone down to the lowest part of the vessel, where he lay down and fell into a deep sleep.
15 And they lift up Jonah, and cast him into the sea, and the sea ceaseth from its raging;

(YLT)Matt 8:23 [Jonah 1:5]
24 and Behold!, a great tempest arose in the sea, so that the boat was being covered by the waves, but He was sleeping,
25 and his disciples having come to him, awoke Him, saying, `Sir, save us! we are perishing!'
26 And he saith to them, `Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?' Then having risen, he rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm;

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Sure have at it. Love the pic as it reminds me that in the most tumultuous of times 'the waves and wind' still know His Name. Also Psalms 89:9

And this song:


Hope this is a blessing for you.

redleghunter said:

Sure have at it. Love the pic as it reminds me that in the most tumultuous of times 'the waves and wind' still know His Name. Also Psalms 89:9

And this song:

Hope this is a blessing for you.

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Good song and thanks for sharing.
Another Psalms passage:

Psalms 107: [Jonah 1 , Matthew 8:23-26]
23 Others went out to sea in ships, conducting trade on the mighty waters.
24 They saw the works of the LORD, and His wonders in the deep.
25 For He spoke and raised a tempest that lifted the waves of the sea.
26 They mounted up to the heavens, they sunk to the depths; their courage melted in their anguish.
27 They reeled and staggered like drunkards, and all their skill was useless.b
28 Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, and He brought them out of their distress.
29 He calmed the storm to a whisper, and the waves of the seac were hushed.

Frankyy said:

Just wanted to bump this thread with something I recently read provided by the creators of the CSB (so likely a bit of bias, nonetheless). According to this report, using 2 "literalness measures" they've determined the literalness scores of the most popularly used translations as so:
View attachment 232930
The 2 measures used were:

1. Transfer Rate of Syntactic Relations - Syntactic relations are the basic meaning-carrying units of a sentence.

2. Consistency Rate of Word Choices - ...aggregating all the correspondences found in the reverse interlinear data and calculating the overall ratio of one-to-one mapping.

I guess it all maybe depends on the methods used, or maybe it's all just opinion as one stated earlier.

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I guess it is dependant on what your relationship is with the Lord as the scripture says that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth, NOT The right version of the Bible will lead you into all truth.

Episaw said:

I guess it is dependant on what your relationship is with the Lord as the scripture says that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth, NOT The right version of the Bible will lead you into all truth.

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I like your style lol. The story of the woman at the well holds this truth. "My fathers say this mountain but you all say that city". The original languages as we call it, really isn't even Hebrew but the Samaritan text is. Greek is closer to genuine Hebrew of the Exodus, actually Paleo Hebrew took less evolution to arrive at English than modern Jewish Hebrew. Of course it's all explained throughout the Old scriptures and regardless of the language paths, its still a true testimony.