Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Dave L said:

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

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yes, Jesus' audience and Immediate neighbors. Witnessed the onset of the church in the Kingdom of God in heaven In Judea in 30 AD.

And also according to revelation 20 eventually after some time. The very same church and Kingdom of God on earth would grow and grow until it encompassed. Society and culture completely.

Dave L said:

I do not think your interpretation holds up. Because the entire discourse answers all of the questions and it includes the end of the world.

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “But as for that day and hour no one knows it—not even the angels in heaven—except the Father alone.” (Matthew 24:35–36)

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No, it does not. Jesus just gave the parable of a fig tree, to identify the generation which would see his return in verse 30.

In Matthew 24:35-36, that day is a reference to his return, preceded by the sign of the son of man in heaven. Jesus was not talking about the end of this present world. He did use the fact that heaven and earth will pass away, but not his words - to emphasize the surety of what he was saying.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Dave L said:

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

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The kingdom of God was at hand - but that generation had it taken from them.

Matthew 21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Dave L said:

...........Jesus' kingdom is not of this present evil world and the world to come is perfect and eternal, not 1000 years of sin, death and war.

The kingdom is here spiritually but only the born again can see it.

“Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”” (John 3:3)

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Great post........

Douggg said:

The kingdom of God was at hand - but that generation had it taken from them.

Matthew 21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

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That generation was looking for an earthly kingdom to come, not a spiritual one..........

Rom 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1Co 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him;
nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Erik Nelson said:

yes, Jesus' audience and Immediate neighbors. Witnessed the onset of the church in the Kingdom of God in heaven In Judea in 30 AD.

And also according to revelation 20 eventually after some time. The very same church and Kingdom of God on earth would grow and grow until it encompassed. Society and culture completely.

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According to Isaiah, that appears to be correct:

Isaiah 9:7
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Daniel 2:45
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;
the great Elohiym hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
35 And the Stone that smote the Image became a Great Mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 12:4
And thou Daniye'l, stop-up! the words, and seal! the Scroll till time of the end.
Many shall go to and fro but The Knowledge shall abound.

2 mountains enter, 1 mountain leaves............

Mt Sinai [Moses/flesh/law/OC]

Gala 4:24
which things are allegory,
for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from Mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar;
25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children,

Hebrew 12:18
For ye came not near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Revelation 8:8
And the second messenger did sound, and as it were a great Mountain [OC/Mt Sinai?] with fire burning was cast into the Sea,.......

Dave L said:

But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.

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Yes!

According to Hebrews, the New Jerusalem is already here:

Mt Zion [Jesus/spirit/NC]

Galatians 4:24
26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,

Hebrews 12:22
But ye have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 14:1
And I saw, and behold!
a Lamb having stood upon the mount Zion and with Him an hundred forty-four thousands,

Dave L said:

The rapture follows the resurrection of the dead.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

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NO.......You clearly do not understand prophecy brother. That happens BEFORE the 70th week.

Revealing Times said:

NO.......You clearly do not understand prophecy brother. That happens BEFORE the 70th week.

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Well we can't very well ask the Jews about that as they don't read the NT, which Christians do read, and try to comprehend.

Let's look at Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and Revelation, as all 3 are tied in together, correct?

Daniel 12:11
And-from-time he-is-taken-away the-continually, and-to-give-of an-abomination, one-desolating, thousand, two hundreds, and ninety days

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood in a place, holy
(the one-reading let him be minding/understanding)

Mark 13:14
`Whenever yet ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood where not it is binding,
(the one-reading let him be minding/understanding),
then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet ye may perceiving/seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies/stratopedwn <4760>,
then be knowing that is nigh/egguV <1451> the desolating of Her...[Revelation 18:19]

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing, the Logos/Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been written,
for the season/time/kairoV <2540> is nigh/egguV <1451>.

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices.
That to one hour She was desolated/hrhmwqh <2049> (5681) .

Revealing Times said:

NO.......You clearly do not understand prophecy brother. That happens BEFORE the 70th week.

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RT, I think Dave's point, within the limits of that particular statement is that in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is that the rapture - i.e. the translation of the living, follows the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

What is traditionally "called" the rapture, treats the dead in Christ rising first followed by the translation of the living as one event. Which, as such, you are saying is before the 70th week begins - which is a separate issue.

Dave was breaking the rapture down into it's two components - if I understood what he was saying correctly. I have not been following the discussion, though....

Revealing Times said: ↑
NO.......You clearly do not understand prophecy brother. That happens BEFORE the 70th week.

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If I had a penny for every time I have heard that..............

Matthew 13:14
“And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;

1Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at His feet to worship Him.
But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

DavidPT said:

That would have to mean His judgment against Gog and his multitude has already been fulfilled, that being before the time of Pentecost. Where is the proof that Gog and his multitude have already been long gone and buried prior to Pentecost?

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According to the book of Ezekiel, Gog, who was from Magog, was the chief prince of meshech and tubal
Ezekiel 38:2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal

Meschech and Tubal were merchant cities for Tyre:
Ezekiel 27:13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech were your merchants. They exchanged slaves and bronze utensils for your merchandise

Meschech was not a place of peace
Psalm 120:5-6 Woe to me, that I sojourn in Meshech, that I dwell among the tents of Kedar! Too long have I had my dwelling among those who hate peace.

-The oxford Bible places meshech and tubal in asia minor
-the Zondervan illustrated bible states the land of magog was in asia minor
-the new unger's bible dictionary places magog in turkey (asia minor)
-the new bible dictionary places meschech and tubal in asia minor

-ancient greek historian, Herodotus, places meschech and tubal in asia minor
-Hippolytus of rome connects magog to asia minor
-pliny the elder connects magog with asia minor.


As we can see, the evidence points that meschech and tubal were merchant cities located in asia minor during the time that Ezekiel received this vision. There are also several references that place magog in asia minor. It would be fair to say that Gog, from magog, was some kind of authority who was a ruler of meshech and tubal. I do not know if Gog was a human leader or some sort of spiritual being, and I do not wish to identify any further than that which the Bible doesn't identify.

DavidPT said:

I'm open to your interpretation above, providing you can prove Ezekiel 39 has already been fulfilled.

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I do not know detail by detail how Ezekiel 38-39 is/was fulfilled. So I don't wish to impose a personal understanding on the text, line by line. There are many, many different interpretations by full preterists, partial preterists, amils, premils, postmils,etc......none of them prove 100% how Ezekiel 38-39 is/was/or will be fulfilled.

But what I do know is:

1.) Gog, from the land of magog, was an authority over meschech and tubal, in Asian minor.

2.) Magog, Meshech, and tubal are no longer cities or kingdoms in asia minor, nor were they by the 1st century.

3.) God poured out his spirit in the last days at pentacost:

Acts 2:15-17
These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

claninja said:

According to the book of Ezekiel, Gog, who was from Magog, was the chief prince of meshech and tubal
Ezekiel 38:2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal

Meschech and Tubal were merchant cities for Tyre:
Ezekiel 27:13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech were your merchants. They exchanged slaves and bronze utensils for your merchandise

Meschech was not a place of peace
Psalm 120:5-6 Woe to me, that I sojourn in Meshech, that I dwell among the tents of Kedar! Too long have I had my dwelling among those who hate peace.

-The oxford Bible places meshech and tubal in asia minor
-the Zondervan illustrated bible states the land of magog was in asia minor
-the new unger's bible dictionary places magog in turkey (asia minor)
-the new bible dictionary places meschech and tubal in asia minor

-ancient greek historian, Herodotus, places meschech and tubal in asia minor
-Hippolytus of rome connects magog to asia minor
-pliny the elder connects magog with asia minor.


As we can see, the evidence points that meschech and tubal were merchant cities located in asia minor during the time that Ezekiel received this vision. There are also several references that place magog in asia minor. It would be fair to say that Gog, from magog, was some kind of authority who was a ruler of meshech and tubal. I do not know if Gog was a human leader or some sort of spiritual being, and I do not wish to identify any further than that which the Bible doesn't identify.



I do not know detail by detail how Ezekiel 38-39 is/was fulfilled. So I don't wish to impose a personal understanding on the text, line by line. There are many, many different interpretations by full preterists, partial preterists, amils, premils, postmils,etc......none of them prove 100% how Ezekiel 38-39 is/was/or will be fulfilled.

But what I do know is:

1.) Gog, from the land of magog, was an authority over meschech and tubal, in Asian minor.

2.) Magog, Meshech, and tubal are no longer cities or kingdoms in asia minor, nor were they by the 1st century.

3.) God poured out his spirit in the last days at pentacost:

Acts 2:15-17
These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskheti

Meshech (Hebrew) = Moschoi (Greek) = Mushki (Assyrian) = Meshki (modern Georgian ethnic group)

Gog of Ma-Gog (Land [of] Gog) = Caucus mountains of Georgia & Armenia

all lines of evidence, ancient through modern, identifies the Caucus mountains region and (truly actually genetically) Caucasian ethnic groups like the modern Meshki / Meshketi as the historical basis for the Biblical references.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Well we can't very well ask the Jews about that as they don't read the NT, which Christians do read, and try to comprehend.

Let's look at Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and Revelation, as all 3 are tied in together, correct?

Daniel 12:11
And-from-time he-is-taken-away the-continually, and-to-give-of an-abomination, one-desolating, thousand, two hundreds, and ninety days

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood in a place, holy
(the one-reading let him be minding/understanding)

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I have written in depth on this, you missed the main conjunction point in Rev. ch. 12. Yes Daniel 12, Matthew 24 and Rev. 12 all tie in to prove that the Abomination of Desolation is an End Time Event. The Jews understandings, until they SEE AGAIN really doesn't matter does it? Would you ask a blind man to guide you? I think not.

The Jews are not Resurrected (unless they are of the Church) at the same time as the Gentile Church. They will STAND IN THEIR LOT AT THE END !! That is what Gabriel told Daniel.

The Dead IN CHRIST arise first then we who are alive IN CHRIST are changed (to a spirit man) in the TWINKLING of and eye and thus we all go to be with the Lord Jesus in Heaven for 7 years. The Dead JEWS are not raised at this time. They will be raised at the end, they are already married to God why would they need to attend the Marriage of the Lamb unto his Bride the Church?

So yes, the dead in Christ and those in Christ who are Alive are Raptured to Heaven before the 70th Week Begins.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices.
That to one hour She was desolated

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Babylon means the WHOLE WORLD, there is no city of Babylon, and there is no city that stands for Babylon. Its the WHOLE WORLD under Satan's Dark Kingdom/Rule. Babel means Confusion, thus the Whole World under Satan is CONFUSED. Rev. ch. 18 is only the results of the world getting pummeled with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments from Rev. ch. 6, 8, 9 and 16. There is no Rev. ch. 18 as per a real time event, its a Parenthetical Citation.

Dave L said:

How so? Read Paul again.
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17)

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How so is easy. The Dead in Christ AND the Living in Christ are Raptured before the 70th Week.

The resurrection of the Beheaded is not the same event. It is a PART of the First Resurrection, but it happens at a different time. The FIRST RESURRECTION is the Resurrection of those IN CHRIST at any point in time that God Resurrects them.

1. The Dead in Christ and the Living in Christ are raised before the 70th Week.

2. The Beheaded are Resurrected and Judged via Rev. 20:4 they LIVE and REIGN with Christ 1000 years, that means only the Beheaded reign on earth in Glorified bodies with Christ Jesus 1000 years. They are given their White Robes via the 5th Seal but told thy must WAIT until their fellow brothers have been killed as they were. This is still a part of the FIRST RESURRECTION. As will be the Saints of old who are raised at the end when Israel is Delivered.

The Second Resurrection is the resurrection of the DEAD who are of Satan.

Douggg said:

RT, I think Dave's point, within the limits of that particular statement is that in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 is that the rapture - i.e. the translation of the living, follows the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

What is traditionally "called" the rapture, treats the dead in Christ rising first followed by the translation of the living as one event. Which, as such, you are saying is before the 70th week begins - which is a separate issue.

Dave was breaking the rapture down into it's two components - if I understood what he was saying correctly. I have not been following the discussion, though...

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Yes, but he conflated the Resurrections. He thinks it all happens after the 70th week starts, and it doesn't. The Dead and Christ and those of us alive are raised at the SAME TIME, before the 70th Week.

LittleLambofJesus said:

If I had a penny for every time I have heard that..............

Matthew 13:14
“And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;

1Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at His feet to worship Him.
But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

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I could care less how many times you have heard anything brother, that has no effects on the truths of God as pertaining unto me. I have been preaching over 30 years and was called unto prophecy. I do not let what men think persuade my opinion, that is my point. I do care what your opinion is, but its not going to move me off of what God teaches me, in the end, I do not follow men or men's traditions, AT ALL.

Dave L said:

But the NT does not teach a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib "rapture". The only passage directly supporting what you might call a "Rapture" happens on the last day after the resurrection of the saints.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

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You have made an assumption based on your private opinion without any supporting explanation using any scripture to support your supposition - which leads to a misunderstanding of other scripture verses - ALL scripture fits together , not just some or most , ALL of it ties together