Is it truly bad to sin?

Drought of the Heart · Jul 6, 2018

Ask if God liked sin before Jesus and then read Hebrews 10:
29How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, who has regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Loren T. · Jul 6, 2018

Kees Hogenbirk said:
Hello Keyman!
Thank you for your well-written response.

I understand what you say. If people did not have free will, we would not love God voluntarily, which is not true love. So indeed, "Blame the sinner, not God."
But I have a follow-up question: Does the sinner really have 'free will', when God is the one that decided his personality, his brain-chemistry, his upbringing and his environment?
Is it not God then, who is to blame because he created all of the above factors that made the person a sinner, yet did nothing about the sin even though knowing about it?

Thank you in advance for your answer.
Greets, Kees

Don't worry, God does not mind you asking these questions. We all ask them at some point, if we think deep enough to contemplate the nature of things. People have asked them and tried to come up with solid answers for thousands of years. As for the free will question, the majority of Christians who study the Word do come to the conclusion that free will is real. Of course, it's limited to our circumstances, although this can be used as an excuse, too. If your circumstances are causing you to sin, you should be looking to change them. As Jesus said, if something offends you, get rid of it. If your computer causes you to watch x rated movies, don't use the computer when you are tempted, that sort of thing.
Scripture says if we are tempted to sin, God also always provides a way out, so, no He isn't to blame. But if you do sin, we have Jesus on our side, asking for our forgiveness when we confess, and that is good news. If you are among the redeemed, sin has no control over you. The only control it has is what you give it.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 6, 2018

dreadnought said:
Sin is addictive.

http://adventist.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/61066/Finney-Power-From-On-High-1-a5.pdf

Saint Steven · Jul 6, 2018

Kees Hogenbirk said:
"Why did God create evil and sin in this world?"
You could say that that God did not create us to do evil, but that he gave us free will, so that if we choose evil, we face the consequences and it we choose good, we are rewarded with God's grace.

Two things right away:
1) God did not "create" sin.
2) We are not rewarded with God's grace if we choose to do good. (works)

We are born sinful.
Born into a fallen and sinful world.
Everything about us is sinful.
Even our self-initiated good deeds are sinful.
No one is righteous according to their own deeds. No one.
Our own self-righteous deeds are worthless.
We are condemned already at birth.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because they have
not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Is it truly bad to sin?
Yes. And unfortunately we can't help make ourselves not sin.
It is all we know. Unless...

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes
him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged
but has crossed over from death to life.

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. ~Romans 9:14-18

Just read Romans 9 over and over and over again. Is there injustice on God's part? Do you agree with the word of God? Or do you find fault with it?

That is indeed an interesting quote. "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God"
So if a person does good, it is on God, and if he sins, it is also on God?
Am I taking this the correct way?

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
If it cannot be controlled, the soul is condemned, lost forever.

(serious pain, unquenchable fire and worm that eternally eats the flesh)

Indeed. So, if we can't control our sinning, can we be held responsible for it? Is it still 'bad' for us to sin?

Chinchilla · Jul 6, 2018

Kees Hogenbirk said:
Is sinning bad?" may sound like a strange question, but I am seriously pondering it, and I would appreciate it greatly if you fellow Christians would help me out. So thanks!

One act of disoebedience in the garden made humans fall and cause the snowball effect causing hundreds of wars to this day . Yes it's serious offence because you steal the glory from God by choosing something over him and he is very jealous dictator and can't tolerate any disobedience because of his just nature as a judge . That's why he had to pay for us himself because nothing created and limited can pay for offense against unlimited eternal being.

Take this for example to better show what I'm writting about.

Child throw something at another child and it get hurt . "it's just the nature of kids " people would say , he didn't mean to hurt the other kid they were just playing .

Grown young man throw bottle at somebody at the concert . People would say that man deserve to be punished because he hurt somebody against the law. He will probably have court case if something bad happend if they find him .

Grown man is upset at politics and throws some junk in the face of president of certain country . Now he is guilty way more than the previous guy because of seriousness of that offence against somebody in power .

Finally we arrive at Man sinning against God , he sinned against eternal power so he is guilty and should be punished forever .

The punishment gradually grows depending on who commited bad act against who .

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
It is written that God never tempts anyone to sin. If someone sins, it is because of their own desires in rebellion and opposed to God.

So, did God NOT create our own desire to rebel against him?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 6, 2018

Kees Hogenbirk said:
Indeed. So, if we can't control our sinning, can we be held responsible for it? Is it still 'bad' for us to sin?

It is deadly (often eternally) . It separates from God. It hurts others and tries to get them dead in sin also.

Is that bad ?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 6, 2018

Kees Hogenbirk said:
So, did God NOT create our own desire to rebel against him?

It really doesn't matter, does it.

He tells us the penalty for sin, and He provides the remedy for sin.

Your choice whether to turn to Him, to cry out to Him, to be saved from the power of sin or not.

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

dreadnought said:
I don't believe he creates the desire to sin. Sin is addictive. We have no desire to sin till we sin.

So then where does our desire to sin come from? Was it something that God didn't create?
If so, then that would mean God didn't create EVERYTHING, right?

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Men have the desire to sin from the time they are born, practically if not actually. It is the normal condition of the heart if not trained in righteousness,
the heart is evil and deceptive more than anything else.

So then why would God create our evil hearts? Does he want us to sin?

GirdYourLoins · Jul 6, 2018

Kees Hogenbirk said:
Hello men and women of God! This is my first post here.

I have been thinking a lot lately about the nature of sin, and I would dearly appreciate it if you guys would help me with answering this question. So thank you in advance!

Here is my question. Plain and simply: "Is sinning bad?"
Of course we all assume that sinning is bad, because it is written in the bible, but there are some questions that lead me to doubt that. Namely...

"Why did God create evil and sin in this world?"
You could say that that God did not create us to do evil, but that he gave us free will, so that if we choose evil, we face the consequences and it we choose good, we are rewarded with God's grace.

But then here is my real question: "If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then why does he create people that he knows will sin? And is sinning then really bad?"
Let's say God creates a person and grants him free will. However, God also created that person with a mental instability / weak will (which, let's assume makes him prone to murderous acts). Subsequently, let's say God then also places that person in an environment with abusive parents at home and frequent bullying at school (which, let's assume, combined with his mental instability causes him to commit murder) And so, he shoots up his class. This is an example, but I'm sure cases like this have actually happened in real life.
In such a case, can the murderer then really be held responsible for his actions? I mean,
-(1) He was born and raised with triggers that would undoubtedly (to God) lead him to commit a murderous act.
-(2) God, while all-powerful and all-knowing knew he would murder, yet did nothing about the sinful act.
If God created the person's will and circumstance, knew the outcome of his sin, and did nohing about it, was is then truly 'bad' for the murderer to commit murder?

"Is sinning bad?" may sound like a strange question, but I am seriously pondering it, and I would appreciate it greatly if you fellow Christians would help me out. So thanks!

Greets, Kees

Do you have a g/f or wife or if not do you want one? Do you want them to love you because they have to, because they have no choice? Or would you prefer that they are with you because they choose to be with you, because they love you out of their own free will?

We are created in Gods image and I believe part of this is the desire to eb loved.

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

Gell said:
Isaiah 60:22
And
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

I understand that you have lots of questions as I assume we all have.
But I have to respectfully disagree about the notion of us like being robots. If one person truly is in the Lord, that person rejoices and delights in the Lord and does things that pleases God.

I respect your opinion and belief.
My question however still lingers unanswered.
I shall figure it out one day.

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

dqhall said:
God did not create your desire to sin. God's prophets taught people not to have sex with someone they are not married to. If you have sex with another man's wife and he shoots you, do not blame God. Jesus taught stealing is wrong (Mark 10:19). If you steal from a store and you get locked up for it, do not blame God. If you find you are getting angry and want to hurt someone, you may be sinning (Matthew 5:21-22). Road rage led to altercations and worse.

If God did not create our desire to sin, then where did it come from?
Also, does that mean that God did not create EVERYTHING?

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

BraveJoan14 said:
God is goodness and being. All that is good and exists comes from God and is evidence of His eternal love and mercy for us. But, there is also evil, which originates with Satan in hell. Evil is simply the lack of being, the lack of good and therefore, the lack of God. So, no, God did not "create" evil, but he created man with the decision to love Him from his own will. We are pretty terrible at that most of the time, in word and deed, because of original sin, which was, if you remember Genesis, because man willingly chose Satan and evil over God. Though we are made in the image and likeness of God, our wordly selves are tainted with sin due to the evils of hell.

This is why we must deny our wordly selves and deny the flesh in order to be fully in communion with God someday (achieved through mortification of the flesh, penance, or Purgatory).

So, short answer: YES sin is bad. But it does not come from God because sin is essentially the absence of God.

A brilliant answer, thank you so much. However, I do still have a few questions.
So if sin didn't come from God, then where did it come from? From the devils of Hell? But they were also created by God, right?
Also, if God didn't create sin, does that mean that God did NOT create EVERYTHING there is?

Kevin Snow · Jul 6, 2018

Kees Hogenbirk said:
That is indeed an interesting quote. "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God"
So if a person does good, it is on God, and if he sins, it is also on God?
Am I taking this the correct way?

The "it" is salvation not deeds. So you took it the wrong way. I recommend reading it again. Then, don't say anything and just read it again. Then, just read it again. And when you've read it a hundred times, pray to God, and then read it again.

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

bcbsr said:
The scenario you seem to be leaning to is not our really our world view. You're leaning toward the idea that people are environmentally controlled and therefore have no self-determination. Essentially that people are merely robots and from standpoint i can understand you questioning God's judicial nature regarding punishing sin. But that's not the way it actually is. And you kind of know that. You can take two people subjected to the same environmental conditions and they end up making different decisions. Fact is while environmental conditions may have some influence, some "temptation", it is common experience that there is a degree of self-determination in the individual that incurs accountability.

In fact what constitutes violations of one's own conscience is generally the same world-wide. Yes, there are differences in the particulars. But judicial systems world-wide generally agree upon, not only what is right and wrong, but degrees of good and bad. The reason is that we're all human. We're all made by the same creator.

Now if someone has to explain to you why murdering innocent people is bad, you have a larger problem.

A great answer. Thank you very much. I still have a question however.
If it is not external factors that ultimately control our choice to sin or not, then what is it exactly that determines 'self-determination'? What makes us humans do what we do, if not biology, thoughts, feelings, upbringing and other circumstances?
Do you mean to say that the actions of a person (the 'self') are driven by a force that God CANNOT control? But if we are completely free to make all of our own decisions, and God can't control us that way, is God really all-powerful?

This is a serious question, and I want you to know that I am against murder, of course.
Thank you in advance for your answer, my friend.

Anguspure · Jul 6, 2018

Kees Hogenbirk said:
Indeed. But is sin bad, if God is the one that creates the minds, thoughts, feelings, desires, actions and circumstances of sinners that lead them to sin?

God creates beings that are capable of Agape Love in His image.
Agape Love is free to create or free to destro

Kees Hogenbirk said:
Indeed. But is sin bad, if God is the one that creates the minds, thoughts, feelings, desires, actions and circumstances of sinners that lead them to sin?

God creates people who are free to Love or free to destroy. Agape Love is free.

Kees Hogenbirk · Jul 6, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I Kees, welcome to posting on the forums.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The first thing to know is that God didn't create sin.

The Bible doesn't say how long before earth that God created the heavens and the angels, but of them there were three archangels over the lower angels - Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer. There was only one eternal commandment, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

All the angels were created perfect, until Lucifer had one little thought that he acted upon. The thought was not from God, it was from himself.

Ezekiel 28:15
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

Isaiah 14:13-14
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

This he preached to his own third of the angels, causing one third of all the angels created to fall with him. The Bible doesn't say why these naive angels followed him, and not God, but they did.

Adam was created perfect also, as was the earth and all the things in and on the earth.

Genesis 2:
8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Then God made Eve. You know the story. She was naive also having never been lied to.

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

It is important to note about sin, that Eve was tricked. Otherwise, she would not have disobeyed God's commandment. It was still not in her nature to disobey anyone. When she ate, nothing happened. But when she gave the fruit to Adam, he willfully disobeyed God's commandment, and when he ate, they both saw that they were naked. Their perfect nature had now become a sin nature.

Then God made the first sacrifice for sin, and made clothes of skin for them to wear.

Genesis 3:
21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

It is the sin nature that Adam produced from his sin, that we have inherited. We are all of Adam. Our own good deeds can't take that away, even though we know both good and evil from the tree. And it is this sin nature that Jesus came to die to take away. Not just individual sins, the whole nature of Adam that produces sin.

This is why Jesus, who because He was born of God and His seed was in Him, never sinned, even though He had a mother born, herself, with a sin nature, until she too received the seed of the Father and is now called Blessed. Jesus puts that same power in us when we repent of the sin nature, realizing that we can't stop sinning on our own. When we turn that over to Christ, He puts His own Spirit within us.

This is why it is of the utmost importance to receive the Spirit of God. Many believe in God, but even the demons believe and tremble. And many know all about Jesus, but have never repented of the sin nature, and actually received His seed, that doesn't sin willfully.

1 John 3:4-10
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Being born of God is a removal of the inherited sin nature from Adam, and given a new nature of the Spirit. That is why Romans 8:9 says,

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Wow, thank you for the extensive answer! I really appreciate the effort!

I do still have a question though.
You say that the original sin started as one little thought of iniquity in Lucifer's mind right?
Well, if that thought did not come from God, but from himself, does that mean that there is something that God did not create or has command over?
If so, than wouldn't that mean that God (1) didn't create everything there is, and (2) isn't able to control everything in existance (not all-powerful)?

Thank you greatly in advance for your answer.

Is it truly bad to sin?

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