If God Exists, He is Necessarily Triune

JESUS=G.O.A.T

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God must be Triune.

At least he cannot be a monad. The monadic God would be the solitary person of Judaism, Islam, or even deism. But such a God cannot exist unless we deny that God is a person. Perhaps these non-biblical religions do go this far. Jews, Muslims, deists, and others will have to speak to whether or not they believe that God is a person.

But if we say that God is a person then God cannot be a monadic, solitary person. This is because of the nature of what it means to be a person.

A person is necessarily a being-in-relationship. Considered on a human level, you are a person defined completely by your relationship to other people. You are a son, a daughter, a mother or father, a friend, a lover, a brother or sister, etc. It is impossible to conceive of yourself independently of your various relationships. Persons are beings-in-relationship. No relationship, no person.

The God of the Bible is Triune - a being-in-relationship with himself from all eternity. He is a Father and a Son. He has always existed in loving, personal relationship. But the God of Judaism, Islam, or deism, being a monad, is not a person at all. From eternity he had no relationships and thus was not a person.

Therefore, if God exists and is a person, he must be multi personal - even Triune.

Also logically speaking the Trinity alone sucks....If I have 3 distinct persons that hold the same office of police officer .....but they are distinct persons....then I have 3 cops. If according to you there is a God the son, God the Father, God the holy ghost that are distinct persons ....then that would be 3 Gods. Unless you argue God is a what....but even that position is eh...since God is always referenced as a who...and when he speaks it's 99% of the time "I do this " "me" "he is a God that.."
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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God must be Triune.

At least he cannot be a monad. The monadic God would be the solitary person of Judaism, Islam, or even deism. But such a God cannot exist unless we deny that God is a person. Perhaps these non-biblical religions do go this far. Jews, Muslims, deists, and others will have to speak to whether or not they believe that God is a person.

But if we say that God is a person then God cannot be a monadic, solitary person. This is because of the nature of what it means to be a person.

A person is necessarily a being-in-relationship. Considered on a human level, you are a person defined completely by your relationship to other people. You are a son, a daughter, a mother or father, a friend, a lover, a brother or sister, etc. It is impossible to conceive of yourself independently of your various relationships. Persons are beings-in-relationship. No relationship, no person.

The God of the Bible is Triune - a being-in-relationship with himself from all eternity. He is a Father and a Son. He has always existed in loving, personal relationship. But the God of Judaism, Islam, or deism, being a monad, is not a person at all. From eternity he had no relationships and thus was not a person.

Therefore, if God exists and is a person, he must be multi personal - even Triune.
He’s not triune
The words, “God the Father” (1 Corinthians 8:6), or similar designations such as “God our Father” (Philippians 1:2; Ephesians 1:2), and “God and Father” (Ephesians 4:6) appear more than 30 times in the New Testament, but we never find a single example of an alleged God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit ever occurring in inspired scripture, not even once. There is a reason why God always led the apostles and prophets to write God the Father rather than God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. For our Heavenly Father is “the only true God”(John 17:3) and that there are no true God’s beside Him (“there is no God beside Me” - Isaiah 45:5). Thus the man Christ Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) as the image of the invisible God the Father.


Also the following questions make the triune God head problamatic


1. How many Spirits are there?.... God the Father is a Spirit (john 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (11 Corinthians 3:17, and the HOly SPirit. Yet there is one Spirit (1 corithians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4).

2. Did the "God son" (term not found anywhere in scripture), surrender his omniprescense while on Earth? If so how can he still be God.


3. Did "God the son" die? The bible says the SOn died (romans 5:10) If so can God die? can part of God die?


4. If the SOn is eternal and existed at creation, who was his mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (galilations 4:4)



5. If the SOn is co eternal why does he have a beginning on Earth?
 
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Tree of Life

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He’s not triune
The words, “God the Father” (1 Corinthians 8:6), or similar designations such as “God our Father” (Philippians 1:2; Ephesians 1:2), and “God and Father” (Ephesians 4:6) appear more than 30 times in the New Testament, but we never find a single example of an alleged God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit ever occurring in inspired scripture, not even once. There is a reason why God always led the apostles and prophets to write God the Father rather than God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. For our Heavenly Father is “the only true God”(John 17:3) and that there are no true God’s beside Him (“there is no God beside Me” - Isaiah 45:5). Thus the man Christ Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) as the image of the invisible God the Father.


Also the following questions make the triune God head problamatic


1. How many Spirits are there?.... God the Father is a Spirit (john 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (11 Corinthians 3:17, and the HOly SPirit. Yet there is one Spirit (1 corithians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4).

2. Did the "God son" (term not found anywhere in scripture), surrender his omniprescense while on Earth? If so how can he still be God.


3. Did "God the son" die? The bible says the SOn died (romans 5:10) If so can God die? can part of God die?


4. If the SOn is eternal and existed at creation, who was his mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (galilations 4:4)



5. If the SOn is co eternal why does he have a beginning on Earth?

You say that God is Father. Do you believe that this is an essential or accidental attribute of God? IOW, is God the Father in his very essence or did he become a Father when he created?
 
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Acts2:38

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And what about 1 John 5:7? "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

Well, this looks like a great text to proof a trinity, except for the fact that this is a falsification of your Bible. In the original Greek manuscripts of the New Testament this verse doesn't exist.

This text is later added to you Bible, in a desperate attempt to proof a trinity which cannot be proven.

The NT has come to us in bits and pieces. A Gospel from here, the letters of Paul from there... The first ones who compiled of this a reliable text of the NT where Westcott and Hort who did so in 1881.

In that Greek text of the NT is written in 1 John 5:7; "For there are three that testify"

That's all.

Followed by verse 8: "the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one."



The whole part about the Father, the word and the holy spirit, and that those are one, doesn't exist in the original Greek text.

Nowadays the Greek text of dr Eberhard Nestle is the most reliable text of the NT, and in 1 John 5:7+8 it is exactly the same as the text of Westcott and Hort.

You don't have to take my word for it, just ask your pastor or reverend, and he'll confirm these facts.

About 30,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament have been found.

Of those thousands manuscripts that trinity formula is to be found in only four (4) manuscripts, and not one of those four goes back any further than the sixteenth century.

Therefore all Bible scholars agree that it is a 16th century falsification. Some say it was a note in the margin which ended up in the text.

Therefore all modern Bible translations leave out that part that doesn't belong in your Bible. Some translations put it between brackets, and some old ones like the KJV still have it in the text.

Old translations like the KJV are based on the so called "Textus Receptus", and that is based on relatively young and unreliable manuscripts.

The textus receptus of the Greek NT is compiled by Erasmus, and published in 1516.

The interesting part is that the first edition of the Textus Receptus didn't have that trinity formula in 1 John 5:7. When the church asked him why he didn't put in the Comma Johanneum, he answered: "I have never in my life seen a Greek manuscript which contains it."
Then the church showed him one, (the ink probably still wet on it) and in the following editions the comma was included.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus

"Erasmus had been studying Greek New Testament manuscripts for many years, in the Netherlands, France, England and Switzerland, noting their many variants, but had only six Greek manuscripts immediately accessible to him in Basel.[5] They all dated from the 12th Century or later, and only one came from outside the mainstream Byzantine tradition. Consequently, most modern scholars consider his text to be of dubious quality.[7]

With the third edition of Erasmus' Greek text (1522) the Comma Johanneum was included, because "Erasmus chose to avoid any occasion for slander rather than persisting in philological accuracy", even though he remained "convinced that it did not belong to the original text of l John."[8]


There is no such thing as a trinity, not in the Old Testament and not in the New Testament.

In all the condescending posts I have seen thus far, not once did anyone refuting the idea of God as three refute the actual blatant verses that stated Jesus and the Holy Spirit as part of God. I merely only put one down that you somehow conveniently forgot in your wonderful barrage.

The Holy Spirit:


Psalms 139:7-8
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

John 14:7
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Isaiah 40:13
Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counseller hath taught him?

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luke 1:33
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 Corinthians 6:16
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Peter 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

There is more, but the point is made.

Now for Jesus....

The one you somehow forgot to refute John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Philippians 2:5-6
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

John 8:22-24
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:57-58
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Revelation 2:8
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 1:17-18
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


There is more, but the point is made.

While I agree that the actual word "trinity" is not found once in scripture, it is the concept that the three are one. They are one, yet have different functions, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

While I anticipate you trying to refute this, just know that you are not refuting my ideas or opinions, you are trying to refute scripture which I have placed here. Good luck trying to do that.

You have my prayers.
 
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Colter

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God must be Triune.

At least he cannot be a monad. The monadic God would be the solitary person of Judaism, Islam, or even deism. But such a God cannot exist unless we deny that God is a person. Perhaps these non-biblical religions do go this far. Jews, Muslims, deists, and others will have to speak to whether or not they believe that God is a person.

But if we say that God is a person then God cannot be a monadic, solitary person. This is because of the nature of what it means to be a person.

A person is necessarily a being-in-relationship. Considered on a human level, you are a person defined completely by your relationship to other people. You are a son, a daughter, a mother or father, a friend, a lover, a brother or sister, etc. It is impossible to conceive of yourself independently of your various relationships. Persons are beings-in-relationship. No relationship, no person.

The God of the Bible is Triune - a being-in-relationship with himself from all eternity. He is a Father and a Son. He has always existed in loving, personal relationship. But the God of Judaism, Islam, or deism, being a monad, is not a person at all. From eternity he had no relationships and thus was not a person.

Therefore, if God exists and is a person, he must be multi personal - even Triune.
You are correct, personality is in relation to other personality. The Trinity is an indivisible oneness. Jesus then would be a Son of a Triune deity, not the third person of the Trinity. The Trinity would be the Father of our Creator Son, who is in turn the Father of our world. The God of the Trinity would really be our Grandfather.
 
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Blade

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Forgive me lol.. to say what HE IS when we don't know Him.. seem Him.. fact He is a spirit. I believe 3 in one. The word WAS GOD.. anyway..

As for WORDS.. a its not MANS language. As if GOD speaks English or Hebrew in heaven. No.. its only here on earth. In 57 years.. not once Has He told me how to call on Him .. use His name. I have had Him say I am not using the name of Jesus enough. I didnt try to correct Him..WAIT.. is not the name YESHUA? HAHA

now..if YOU like to use His name call Him but what ever.. praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS! I am only sharing about ME and HIM.. I would say change repent you name it.. if He said I was wrong in any way.. not my way or will but HIS. He seems to know me... Hes my friend.. my brother.. my savior .. my GOD. A name above any name.. A living true only HE is the real God there is no other. So.. ask HIM talk to HIM... its not what I say or any one else.. I can say for fact...I have no right to speak for HIM. So YOU ask this GOD that is IN YOU. Not what other say about Him.. ..just a thought
 
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ViaCrucis

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For St. Augustine the Trinity is demanded (at least in part) on account of the confession that God is love (as St. John says). Others have made similar arguments throughout history.

For Augustine for love to exist there but be that which loves, that which is loved, and the love itself. Without any of these components love can't exist. Self-love is excluded because it can't be true kind of love (agape) which God has and is and which we are ourselves to have for others, since this true (agape) love is by nature outward-directed, not inward. Selfish love is never true (agape) love.

Fr. Balthasar in Credo argues along similar grounds, that self-love isn't the real kind of love; but also argues that we mere transient creatures also can't be the object of God's love on the basis of our transience and it would indicate lack in God. That is, for God to be love and if we are the object then God therefore needs us to have love.

There must then be an eternal reality of love which God has and participates in by His own Being--and Trinitarianism gives language to that: There is always Lover, Beloved, and Love itself.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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You say that God is Father. Do you believe that this is an essential or accidental attribute of God? IOW, is God the Father in his very essence or did he become a Father when he created?
I would say he became the father when he created us all. but again he created us all he created everything... no one else just one God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I would say he became the father when he created us all. but again he created us all he created everything... no one else just one God.

Except that the revelation of God as Father isn't in His relationship to us, but the relationship He has with His Son. Throughout the New Testament it is made plain that He is Father because He has a Son, and that Son is Jesus. We come to know Him as our Father through Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Except that the revelation of God as Father isn't in His relationship to us, but the relationship He has with His Son. Throughout the New Testament it is made plain that He is Father because He has a Son, and that Son is Jesus. We come to know Him as our Father through Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
you're right but wrong at the same time let me explain
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Except that the revelation of God as Father isn't in His relationship to us, but the relationship He has with His Son. Throughout the New Testament it is made plain that He is Father because He has a Son, and that Son is Jesus. We come to know Him as our Father through Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (give birth/bring forth...the son had a beginning) thee? "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be a son.

Luke 1:35 King James Version (KJV)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

(further proving my point that the son didn't always exist ...the son is the human body) (but this also proves your point that he functioned as a "Father" to this "human son"

This also means that The Father and son relationship didn't come about until the NT....so if I show one scripture in the OT where God is called Father then yeah.... (i'll get to that later though)



Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Comment: To be made both Lord and Christ is the same thing as saying the Son was "appointed heir of all things by God in Hebrew1:2. (Helps Word Studies defines Lord (greek Kurios) properly as a person exercigina aboslute ownership rights; lord likewise denots an owner (master) execising full rights) Therefore the title Son of God refers to the man who was made Lord and Christ (CHrist means anointed one)

Cross reference:
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”


SO as we see...the Son is just the anointed human body ...how come the son had to be appointed heir of all things if he was already heir of all things.
How come Hebrews 1:6 says I he shall be a son....if he was always a son.



So sure Father can refer to his relationship with the son..or annoited human body God that God the Father made himself visible in (Hebrews 1:3) since it's conclusive that the "son" came about in the NT....then if I can prove that God the Father was God the father in the OT....you would be wrong to say that he's only God the Father when it comes to his relationship with the annoited one.... you would have to acknowledge that he's also God the Father of creation


and look what we have here....

Psalms 68:5 - A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, [is] God in his holy habitation.


Malachi 2:10 - Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isiah 63:13 - Doubtless thou [art] our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, [art] our father, our redeemer; thy name [is] from everlasting.


But even if you want to argue somehow that he was the son in the OT...Isiah 63 and Malachi still is refering to God being a Father of us.. IN isiah for example it says OUR FATHER (our means more then one person....and since Isiah is saying Our...he's referring to regular humans not "the son" that was made Lord and Christ...and who the fullness of the Godhead (not 1/3rds of the Godhead) was in bodily Colosians 2:9 )

 
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Basil the Great

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If God exists, He most definitely is not necessarily Triune. I have never seen anyone make such a claim. Quite frankly, there are at least even odds, if not more, that God is One, just as the Shema declares: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is One". Such a bold claim that the title of this thread makes needlessly casts a dark shadow upon our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters.
 
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Tree of Life

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If God exists, He most definitely is not necessarily Triune. I have never seen anyone make such a claim. Quite frankly, there are at least even odds, if not more, that God is One, just as the Shema declares: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is One". Such a bold claim that the title of this thread makes needlessly casts a dark shadow upon our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters.

How can a monadic God be God in any sense? A monadic God is a solitary being, likely not a person, and stands in need of its creation. This is not the God of the Bible. Jews and Muslims are idolaters, not spiritual brothers and sisters.
 
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Basil the Great

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How can a monadic God be God in any sense? A monadic God is a solitary being, likely not a person, and stands in need of its creation. This is not the God of the Bible. Jews and Muslims are idolaters, not spiritual brothers and sisters.
You have got to be kidding? I have seen many claims in my life that seem to be a bit of a stretch, but to call Jews and Muslims as idolaters probably takes the prize as the most unreal claim that I have ever heard! As I keep reminding my Christians brothers and sisters on this website, Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the God of Abraham. Just because we may disagree on our understanding of God, does not negate the fact that all three groups believe that they worship the God of Abraham and most independent religious writers appear to believe that the three monotheistic faiths do worship the same God.
 
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God must be Triune.

At least he cannot be a monad. The monadic God would be the solitary person of Judaism, Islam, or even deism. But such a God cannot exist unless we deny that God is a person. Perhaps these non-biblical religions do go this far. Jews, Muslims, deists, and others will have to speak to whether or not they believe that God is a person.

But if we say that God is a person then God cannot be a monadic, solitary person. This is because of the nature of what it means to be a person.

A person is necessarily a being-in-relationship. Considered on a human level, you are a person defined completely by your relationship to other people. You are a son, a daughter, a mother or father, a friend, a lover, a brother or sister, etc. It is impossible to conceive of yourself independently of your various relationships. Persons are beings-in-relationship. No relationship, no person.

The God of the Bible is Triune - a being-in-relationship with himself from all eternity. He is a Father and a Son. He has always existed in loving, personal relationship. But the God of Judaism, Islam, or deism, being a monad, is not a person at all. From eternity he had no relationships and thus was not a person.

Therefore, if God exists and is a person, he must be multi personal - even Triune.
If there is no higher state of being in the universe than love, and God therefore is love, then for God to be self sustaining as love, God must exist inside a relationship. A relationship involves not just the loved and the beloved, but the fruits that arise out of all loving relations.
Theron lies the theoretical and theological basis in believing in God as Blessed Trinity.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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If there is no higher state of being in the universe than love, and God therefore is love, then for God to be self sustaining as love, God must exist inside a relationship. A relationship involves not just the loved and the beloved, but the fruits that arise out of all loving relations.
Theron lies the theoretical and theological basis in believing in God as Blessed Trinity.
.... got bible for that?
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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What specifically do you find unbiblical?
That God has always been in a relationship with someone...whether it's another God person... or another planet of intelligent organisms that existed before we did. The second one is possible sure....it's possible God was always creating and in relationships with organisms for all we know....but to proclaim it as straight up truth would be wrong....if we don't know we don't know.


But with that being said I think you're saying God the Father...had a relationship with another God person not a person like you and me....but the bible seems to indicate he's the only God...but yeah need bible for that.
 
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SolomonVII

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http://christianity.net.au/questions/what_is_the_relationship_between_the_father_son_and_holy_spirit

It is fairly common to understand that the what defines Trinity is eternal, perfect relationship.
And that God is love, which cannot exist independently of relationship.
https://www.thoughtco.com/god-is-love-bible-verse-701340
Given that God does exist independently of us(his creation) and he is not dependent on us for love, then that relationship becomes dependant on the Godhead himself.
If there is no relationship, then love becomes essentially a meaningless term. Love is the relationship between two persons, and it is in and of itself creative and fruitful. What the Son returns to the Father, the Father pours out on all of us, his Holy Spirit, actively transforming the world as a result of the fruition of the love between father and son.
It is all biblical.
 
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