Is God just choosing one over the another?????????

Ken Rank said:

It doesn't mean God hated as we use the word, it means "Jacob I loved, Esau I loved less."

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Can you validate that from the text and context? That it means God "loved less"?

Ron Gurley said:

The spiritual gift of FAITH / BELIEF is Offered by God to all. He calls / draws all.

Some spiritually accept. Some do not.

SEE: Ephesians 2! and...

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

1 TIMOTHY 2 (NASB)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

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5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11




JPT

Dorothy Mae said:

So how come the believers do not do this in the local church today? All of this does not answer the question as to why Jesus blamed the disciples not God, that their faith was too little? The answer is the level of faith a believer has lays in the responsibilty of the believer, not God. We can look at the fruit of faith and so forth, but none of this answers the question as to WHO is responsible for us having faith? Jesus seems to lay the responsiblity on men squarely. God shows men matters but believing is our area. He compliments a man for his faith and does not throw in that God gave him that faith. He blames the disciples for their lack of faith and does not blame God for not giving them enough. This is something that one cannot really get out of. You can look at the gift of faith but it seems to be given to men who already have a great deal of faith. It is never given to men who had none.

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You sound like you just want to argue.
Have you no faith?

OSAS 101 said:

You sound like you just want to argue.
Have you no faith?

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I suspect that a lot of Americans, by no means all, do not want to be disturbed in what they have chosen to believe. They looked at the options of what one can believe and made the choices that please them the most. Whether they are true or not is not factor to be considered. One can simply believe, as you do, and that is good enough. The truth will rearrange itself to their personal opinion.

What I am doing is showing you that your assumption is not true. God is not giving us faith or withholding faith according to Jesus. Whether we have faith or not is entirely a matter of our choice to believe the evidence presented. I was trying to get you to think about your position. So if those miracles described in the Bible don’t follow your life or prayers are not rather consistently answered, it’s not cause didn’t give you faith.

But you have no reasonable defense for your position and so you attack the character of the person asking the questions you cannot answer. It gets wearying, I have to admit. Ask an American a question they cannot answer and they will call you something nasty like "you just like to argue" or "you have no faith."

I am one of those Americans who has asked herself hard questions in wanting truth, not just some kind of faith in whatever I like since my 20s. Thems that asks, receives.

But I leave you to your faith. You do not want truth, but merely faith. For you, it’s God’s fault when men don’t believe the truth, I suppose the refusal to believe that it’s your responsibility is also His fault in your mind. Convenient.

Ron Gurley said:

The spiritual gift of FAITH / BELIEF is Offered by God to all. He calls / draws all.

Some spiritually accept. Some do not.

SEE: Ephesians 2! and...

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

1 TIMOTHY 2 (NASB)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Click to expand...

Where does it say the gift of faith is offered to all men and what does spirituallt accept faith mean?

I believe because my mind sees the evidence as overwhelming.

I’ll tell you what is wrong with this God does it all/gives faith or not is it in full defiance of the Bible requiring that men are responsible for their faith. God never asked God to give men faith. Opens eyes? yes. Believe? No. When we see, we either refuse to believe or accept the truth.

Dorothy Mae said:

I suspect that a lot of Americans, by no means all, do not want to be disturbed in what they have chosen to believe. They looked at the options of what one can believe and made the choices that please them the most. Whether they are true or not is not factor to be considered. One can simply believe, as you do, and that is good enough. The truth will rearrange itself to their personal opinion.

What I am doing is showing you that your assumption is not true. God is not giving us faith or withholding faith according to Jesus. Whether we have faith or not is entirely a matter of our choice to believe the evidence presented. I was trying to get you to think about your position. So if those miracles described in the Bible don’t follow your life or prayers are not rather consistently answered, it’s not cause didn’t give you faith.

But you have no reasonable defense for your position and so you attack the character of the person asking the questions you cannot answer. It gets wearying, I have to admit. Ask an American a question they cannot answer and they will call you something nasty like "you just like to argue" or "you have no faith."

I am one of those Americans who has asked herself hard questions in wanting truth, not just some kind of faith in whatever I like since my 20s. Thems that asks, receives.

But I leave you to your faith. You do not want truth, but merely faith. For you, it’s God’s fault when men don’t believe the truth, I suppose the refusal to believe that it’s your responsibility is also His fault in your mind. Convenient.

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You sound very bitter.
That is not a trait of God.
That is a worldly trait.
And you are letting it control you.
Has God given you the faith to overcome this bitterness.
You may not like what I say but there is no bitterness in what I say.
You are so concerned with your worldly position that you think that's what this thread is all about.
But it's not.
It's about your relationship with God.
It's believing that he is in control of your life because you've given it to him.
and when you do that, the Spirit of God will come upon you and soon the bitterness will leave you.
When God is with you, you won't want the bitterness anymore.
You will see things in a new light.
A smile will come upon your face that wasn't there before.
And God won't force that smile on your face.
You will smile with your own free will.
Why?
Because you will have found your true relationship with Jesus, our God.

Dorothy Mae said:

I am one of those Americans who has asked herself hard questions in wanting truth, not just some kind of faith in whatever I like since my 20s. Thems that asks, receives.

But I leave you to your faith. You do not want truth, but merely faith. For you, it’s God’s fault when men don’t believe the truth, I suppose the refusal to believe that it’s your responsibility is also His fault in your mind. Convenient.

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Well said.


JLB

Dorothy Mae said:

Where does it say the gift of faith is offered to all men and what does spirituallt accept faith mean?

I believe because my mind sees the evidence as overwhelming.

I’ll tell you what is wrong with this God does it all/gives faith or not is it in full defiance of the Bible requiring that men are responsible for their faith. God never asked God to give men faith. Opens eyes? yes. Believe? No. When we see, we either refuse to believe or accept the truth.

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Here is the law [principle] of faith -


When God speaks to us, faith comes to us; we now have faith.

• faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17


However, faith must be activated by our obedience, otherwise it will be dormant, or "dead", unable to function, like a body without a spirit is dead, and unable to function.

• For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The works James is referring to is not "good" works, or the works of the law, or even works that earn a wage.


The works James refers to, that activates our faith, is the "work" of obedience.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21


The "work" that Abraham was justified by was his obedience to offer Isaac on the altar.


Faith must have the corresponding act of obedience, or it remain dormant, or "dead" and is unable to produce the divine result that God intended, which in the case of Abraham was justification.



Example:


20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-21


The woman in need of healing moved through the crowds, in the act of obedience, to the word of God that produced faith in her heart, and touched the hem of His garment, and was made whole.

• For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.

At this point she believed, in her heart. However it was when she acted in obedience that her faith was activated, and when she touched the hem of His garment, her faith was complete, and produced the intended divine result: Healing.


22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:22


The word "perfect" is a reference to, and means, complete.


Only complete faith is able to saved.


Can we discuss this principle further?



JLB

OSAS 101 said:

You sound very bitter.
That is not a trait of God.
That is a worldly trait.
And you are letting it control you.
Has God given you the faith to overcome this bitterness.
You may not like what I say but there is no bitterness in what I say.
You are so concerned with your worldly position that you think that's what this thread is all about.
But it's not.
It's about your relationship with God.
It's believing that he is in control of your life because you've given it to him.
and when you do that, the Spirit of God will come upon you and soon the bitterness will leave you.
When God is with you, you won't want the bitterness anymore.
You will see things in a new light.
A smile will come upon your face that wasn't there before.
And God won't force that smile on your face.
You will smile with your own free will.
Why?
Because you will have found your true relationship with Jesus, our God.

Click to expand...

10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. John 15:10-11




JLB

OSAS 101 said:

You sound very bitter.
That is not a trait of God.
That is a worldly trait.
And you are letting it control you.
Has God given you the faith to overcome this bitterness.
You may not like what I say but there is no bitterness in what I say.
You are so concerned with your worldly position that you think that's what this thread is all about.
But it's not.
It's about your relationship with God.
It's believing that he is in control of your life because you've given it to him.
and when you do that, the Spirit of God will come upon you and soon the bitterness will leave you.
When God is with you, you won't want the bitterness anymore.
You will see things in a new light.
A smile will come upon your face that wasn't there before.
And God won't force that smile on your face.
You will smile with your own free will.
Why?
Because you will have found your true relationship with Jesus, our God.

Click to expand...

Again the typical answer from your culture of mud slinging. You cannot answer the post so you continue to accuse me of evil. This is what your culture teaches you to do. Maybe you are beyond change.

But for anyone else, be careful when condemning a brother or sister of evil instead of dealing with the questions asked of you. The Jews did this to Jesus too. Called his character nasty names when faced with unpleasant truth. I’d advise anyone who loves Jesus to avoid being like them.

For the record, the above poster has no descernment at all and is way off on all points.

Faith is a matter of our choosing according to Jesus.

JLB777 said:

10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. John 15:10-11




JLB

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True but how does this address the post?

JLB777 said:

Here is the law [principle] of faith -


When God speaks to us, faith comes to us; we now have faith.

• faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17


However, faith must be activated by our obedience, otherwise it will be dormant, or "dead", unable to function, like a body without a spirit is dead, and unable to function.

• For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The works James is referring to is not "good" works, or the works of the law, or even works that earn a wage.


The works James refers to, that activates our faith, is the "work" of obedience.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21


The "work" that Abraham was justified by was his obedience to offer Isaac on the altar.


Faith must have the corresponding act of obedience, or it remain dormant, or "dead" and is unable to produce the divine result that God intended, which in the case of Abraham was justification.



Example:


20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-21


The woman in need of healing moved through the crowds, in the act of obedience, to the word of God that produced faith in her heart, and touched the hem of His garment, and was made whole.

• For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.

At this point she believed, in her heart. However it was when she acted in obedience that her faith was activated, and when she touched the hem of His garment, her faith was complete, and produced the intended divine result: Healing.


22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:22


The word "perfect" is a reference to, and means, complete.


Only complete faith is able to saved.


Can we discuss this principle further?



JLB

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Where is faith describe as a law first? Might as well talk about the law of kindness or courage or trust. I don’t think of responses I give to those I love as a law or even principle.

JLB, I appreciate your input and reaching out, but uh, how shall I put it? I’ve lived trusting God for my needs for decades. To this day we have no idea how we will manage retirement. I trusted God and not a 401k. I followed Jesus who also had no purchased property paid off for retirement years. Did not start saving for those years at 20 but invested my life in the kingdom of God.

So I agree with your whole post. Not so sure about calling it a law though. I think of faith and trust as something I give Him who I love. Makes it sound rather heartless to call it a law like gravity. But that’s just me. I know others are different.

Dorothy Mae said:

Where is faith describe as a law first? Might as well talk about the law of kindness or courage or trust. I don’t think of responses I give to those I love as a law or even principle.

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27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:27-31

• By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

• Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

There is a law, or principle of faith: Justification by faith.


Faith plainly operates by a law, that is not the works of the law.

• Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Paul is teaching us that faith and the law do have something in common.

Paul says we establish, or uphold the law through faith.


The NIV says it this way -

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31


This word establish or uphold is a reference to weights of measure that scales use.


Back then a weight was used on one side to measure how much grain or corn or whatever was being traded.


Faith and the law have the common "weight" of measure in the scales of balance.


This common weight is obedience.

• Obedience to obey all the law was required. Galatians 3:10
• Obedience is also the principle of law by which faith operates. James 2:21

JLB

JLB777 said:

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:27-31

• By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

• Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

There is a law, or principle of faith: Justification by faith.


Faith plainly operates by a law, that is not the works of the law.

• Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Paul is teaching us that faith and the law do have something in common.

Paul says we establish, or uphold the law through faith.


The NIV says it this way -

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31


This word establish or uphold is a reference to weights of measure that scales use.


Back then a weight was used on one side to measure how much grain or corn or whatever was being traded.


Faith and the law have the common "weight" of measure in the scales of balance.


This common weight is obedience.

• Obedience to obey all the law was required. Galatians 3:10
• Obedience is also the principle of law by which faith operates. James 2:21

JLB

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But I wouldn’t make too much out of it since only Paul refers to faith that way and only once.

To me it’s like calling faithfulness in a marriage a law of faithfulness.

Otherwise you are right. Faith and obedience are tied together. I just the cords are love and not a law.

Dorothy Mae said:

But I don’t read “the law of faith” at all there. The law? yes Law of faith? no

To me it’s like calling faithfulness in a marriage a law of faithfulness.

Otherwise you are right. Faith and obedience are tied together. I just the cords are love and not a law.

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Well I gave what the scripture says in Romans 3:27.

That’s all I can do.

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

James teaches the exact same principle of obedience concerning the same exact subject of justification.


James 2:21


JPT

JLB777 said:

Well I gave what the scripture says in Romans 3:27.

That’s all I can do.
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

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Ok I see that but it is mentioned exactly once in the whole Bible. The verse defines it. We are justified by faith.

What you say about works and faith is true.

Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

James teaches the exact same principle of obedience concerning the same exact subject of justification.


James 2:21


JPT

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I can see why you emphasize this. The culture in some views abhors works. So good on you, mate.

Dorothy Mae said:

Ok I see that but it is mentioned exactly once in the whole Bible. The verse defines it. We are justified by faith.

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Yes ma'am. We are justified by faith.


No question. That's what the bible teaches.


We are in complete agreement.


What I am pointing out, is faith requires obedience in order to be "alive" or "activated", to produce the intended divine result.


So again, let me say, I agree, that we are justified by faith.


However, we need to understand the "principle" [or law] of faith, to understand how it operates.


Dead faith, will not produce the result that God gave it to us for, whether justification, healing, righteousness or salvation or anything that we need.



Abraham justified - You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [complete] perfect?

• Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:21-24


The "works" here is not the works of the law, or the works that earn, or even good works.


The "works" here is obedience to offer his son Isaac, in response to God's word, by which he received faith.


The corresponding act of obedience is what "activates" our faith, causing it to produce the intended divine result; in this case of Abraham is produced justification. [a declaration of being right with God]

• For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without [obedience] works is dead also. James 2:26

JLB

Dorothy Mae said:

I just the cords are love and not a law.

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Same principle applies to love.

Without obeying His commandment to love our neighbor then we do not love God.


20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20


This is coming from the Apostle of love.

John





JPT