Submission in marriage and domestic violence

RDKirk said:

That has nothing to do with not being in submission to anyone. Paul was in submission to the counsel at Jerusalem.

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The apostlic council was led by James who believed that the church must observe the Torah and also those of Paul who believed there was no such necessity. Following advise offered by Peter , Barnabas and Paul gave an account of their ministry among the gentiles and James quoted from the words of the prophet Amos. James added his own words to the quotation: "Known to God from eternity are all His works" and then submitted a proposal, which was accepted by the Church and became known as the Apostolic Decree.

How is that any different from the mutual submission of marriage when a search for God’s will in a matter is needed? The dispute was about following law or grace with what seems to be a curtesy nod to both.

JacksBratt said:

I don't see, anywhere, where I have stated that I refuse anything. She fights and claws for things that would be given willingly if she waited a couple of seconds or five minutes or so... as a result she looks like a selfish person who is demanding recognition continually.

Let's go through this.

My wife refuses to accept that, biblically, she is to submit to me as the head of the house, period.
As I have said, I am not even close to being a domineering person, I will lead when I am put in the position but don't have to have it my way.
The things she fights and claws for are things like a "thanks" or "good job" when she has done something for the family. Thing is, she doesn't even give people the chance to do it on their own out of respect or honor of her actions. As soon as she has done something, she is saying, to us, "well, are you going to say thank you"? Or, she will say something like "did you notice that I folded all the laundry? Do you know how long that took me"? This is before we have even been in the house long enough to notice. Its a continual prompting for acknowledgement for normal house hold chores that we both do.

I do not refuse my wife anything, and I mean anything.. probably to a fault... but, sadly, most of the time it is to avoid conflict..... and... on things that would be done, willingly.

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I don't believe that a believing woman should submit to believing husbands in anything more than a nod to the pattern of Christ and the church so for us to argue that is a matter better taken up in the law vs grace forum. Biblically law has passed away and grace abounds but not for those who are still in law.

~Cassia~ said:

The apostlic council was led by James who believed that the church must observe the Torah and also those of Paul who believed there was no such necessity. Following advise offered by Peter , Barnabas and Paul gave an account of their ministry among the gentiles and James quoted from the words of the prophet Amos. James added his own words to the quotation: "Known to God from eternity are all His works" and then submitted a proposal, which was accepted by the Church and became known as the Apostolic Decree.

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The counsel listened to Paul's input, but Paul yet submitted to the decision of the counsel.

That's like when I'm in my commander's office and he tells me what he wants the unit to do. I will give him my view of our capabilities, he will listen to my input, and--maybe--he'll modify his command. But when I leave the room, I'm going tell the troops, "This is what the commander wants, and it's a darned fine plan."

How is that any different from the mutual submission of marriage when a search for God’s will in a matter is needed?

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That's a different discussion from the tangent you and I have been on about whether everyone should be in submission to someone.

RDKirk said:

The counsel listened to Paul's input, but Paul yet submitted to the decision of the counsel.

That's like when I'm in my commander's office and he tells me what he wants the unit to do. I will give him my view of our capabilities, he will listen to my input, and--maybe--he'll modify his command. But when I leave the room, I'm going tell the troops, "This is what the commander wants, and it's a darned fine plan."



That's a different discussion from the tangent you and I have been on about whether everyone should be in submission to someone.

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Knowing very little of military what stands out for me is the one accord that they accredited to their discussions which, come to think of it would have included submission if that were the case. After all Paul was very liberal in matters with women also. Ultimately it became a church decision moving forward.

Acts 15:25 It seemed good to us, having become of one accord, to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,


Acts 1:14 These all continued steadfastly with one accord in prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

~Cassia~ said:

I don't believe that a believing woman should submit to believing husbands in anything more than a nod to the pattern of Christ and the church so for us to argue that is a matter better taken up in the law vs grace forum. Biblically law has passed away and grace abounds but not for those who are still in law.

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I am not about to carry on an argument with you on this subject. I am a man and you are a woman so we are both going to have a bias toward one attitude toward this subject.

I see that you believe that the biblical law has passed away. I, on the other hand believe that it was teaching that came after Christs death, burial and resurrection that stated that a man should love his wife the way Christ loved the church, and gave his life up for her. On the other hand a woman is instructed to submit to her husband as unto the lord...so....... we are not going to see eye to eye.

Anyway. This thread was about:
Submission in marriage and domestic violence

I have stated that anything of the sort is incorrect and not biblical. Submission in marriage must be voluntary and any domestic violence is a sin...whether from the man or the woman.

I refuse nothing to my wife. She is not in any way submissive, which causes extreme power struggles.

I firmly believe that a marriage that truly follows the Godly framework, is the best and happiest for both parties. I think others may have their own framework that works for them, but they are in the minority.

Why do you think that more than 50% of marriages, in the church, fail?

My guess..... they are not following the biblical framework and pastors are afraid to preach it from the pulpit because people do not understand the male role is one of leading as a servant and women think that submitting means that they become a slave.

It's so messed up.. like a lot of biblical principals have become.

I have seen this framework of God's first hand.... and my dad is 91 while my mother is 81 and they are still married, for almost 60 years, and are each others best friend. My mother knows that my dad would still die for her.

Zoii said:

Is the concept of religious submission to their husband a contributing factor in the rates of domestic violence.

According to research published last year and two investigative journalist reports, the answer is YES.

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How are our religions reconciling this or is the fact ignored. Is it time to abandon the notion of submission.

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Part of the problem, I believe, comes from a basic lack of formation concerning the biblical pattern of submission "as to the Lord", as well as a wrong understanding about biblical Headahip; it tends to be discussed in terms of power and not in terms of sacrificial love. This is true not only for pre-marital counseling, but for post-wedding formation (which is usually non-existent unless the marriage is in trouble).

Walsinghsm Way said:

Part of the problem, I believe, comes from a basic lack of formation concerning the biblical pattern of submission "as to the Lord", as well as a wrong understanding about biblical Headahip; it tends to be discussed in terms of power and not in terms of sacrificial love. This is true not only for pre-marital counseling, but for post-wedding formation (which is usually non-existent unless the marriage is in trouble).

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I think Yahweh is very clear , not about "power" you speak of,
but about authority,
concerning every part of a believers/Ekklesia in Him/ life - man, woman and child.

There is nothing unclear in His Word about this. (people just reject it most of the time, possibly due not just to sin, but to allowing emotions and/or feelings and/or traditions (unregenerated man's ways, society's ways) be a guiding factor (sinfully) instead of Yahweh's Word being the Truth Unchanged Authority)

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I think Yahweh is very clear , not about "power" you speak of,
but about authority,
concerning every part of a believers/Ekklesia in Him/ life - man, woman and child.)

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Thanks for responding!

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to get at. What I hoped to get across was that the Church has allowed its understanding of authority and headship, both in the family and in the Church to be infiltrated by the World. I'm

Authority in the Church, as St. Paul tells us, is it not to be the way it is the surrounding culture i.e. pagan and secular, who like to "lord it over" others, considering social status. Authority as exercised in the us supposedly to exercised in the manner of Christ, Who did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped at, but emptied Himself. And thus offered us the pattern to follow.

Obviously some things are best left unsaid. After debating over this on cf for going on a dozen years I just need to not. Taking the summer off to do other things but hope ya'll get of one mind about this topic sooner than later.

RDKirk said:

The counsel listened to Paul's input, but Paul yet submitted to the decision of the counsel.

That's like when I'm in my commander's office and he tells me what he wants the unit to do. I will give him my view of our capabilities, he will listen to my input, and--maybe--he'll modify his command. But when I leave the room, I'm going tell the troops, "This is what the commander wants, and it's a darned fine plan."

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As I read it, though, Paul was a participant in the council and part of its decision-making process, not just someone who addressed them then waited for a decision, which is very different from an officer giving a command.

You seem to understand what I'm aiming at, at least partly ---- the AUTHORITY (and HEADSHIP) we are to learn is from Yahweh, as He Says,
and NOT from men or women or groups or councils or whatever devices men may come up with to 'complicate' what , as written, Yahweh has created simple. (TRUE ! Nothing hard to understand or accept , for little children's faith trusting and relying on Him abiding in Him, His Way, His Plan, His Life as directed and accomplished in JESUS.

As noted, separately below, many have wrangled over this not only "a dozen years" but much more , to no avail usually - as people are not willing.... even with the immeasurable blessings Yahweh generously pours out supplied in Life in so many ways (WHEN) IN JESUS.... people often won't just let go (of old ways/ man's ways) and let God (lead and rule).

QUOTE="Walsinghsm Way ]Thanks for responding!

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to get at. What I hoped to get across was that the Church has allowed its understanding of authority and headship, both in the family and in the Church to be infiltrated by the World. I'm

Authority in the Church, as St. Paul tells us, is it not to be the way it is the surrounding culture i.e. pagan and secular, who like to "lord it over" others, considering social status. Authority as exercised in the us supposedly to exercised in the manner of Christ, Who did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped at, but emptied Himself. And thus offered us the pattern to follow.[/QUOTE

QUOTE=]Obviously some things are best left unsaid. After debating over this on cf for going on a dozen years I just need to not. Taking the summer off to do other things but hope ya'll get of one mind about this topic sooner than later.[/QUOTE

~Cassia~ said:

Knowing very little of military what stands out for me is the one accord that they accredited to their discussions which, come to think of it would have included submission if that were the case. After all Paul was very liberal in matters with women also. Ultimately it became a church decision moving forward.

Acts 15:25 It seemed good to us, having become of one accord, to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,


Acts 1:14 These all continued steadfastly with one accord in prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

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This was not a decision Paul would have or could have made on his own, against the opposition of the counsel. To be sure, Paul had the Holy Spirit on his side to persuade them, but despite the fact that Paul happened to be on the side of the angels, he clearly would not have acted without the permission of the counsel.

Let's go back to the OT for a moment. Was Abraham in submission to God? Certainly he was, as we see when God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac--he proved his submission to God.

Yet, when God visited Abraham to "do lunch," God proposed to wipe out Sodom without respite, but Abraham literally admonished God and proposed an alternative plan...which God accepted. The fact that God accepted His buddy Abraham's admonition and his alternative proposal does not obviate the fact that Abraham was yet in submission to God.

Paidiske said:

As I read it, though, Paul was a participant in the council and part of its decision-making process, not just someone who addressed them then waited for a decision, which is very different from an officer giving a command.

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Paul would not have moved in opposition to the counsel. He was, thus, in submission to it.

It seems your idea of "submission" necessarily involves some level of humiliation.

You do know every US Marine--as tough as they are-- is submissive to higher authority, every Navy Seal--as tough as they are-- is submissive to higher authority, every Australian soldier--as tough as they are (and I know some of them)--is submissive to higher authority.

The ability to be submissive is not a bad thing, it is a good thing, and it is a necessary thing for all members of the Body of Christ.

RDKirk said:

Paul would not have moved in opposition to the counsel. He was, thus, in submission to it.

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Yes, but he was also part of it. It wasn't something ruling over him in a dictatorial way. The process was participatory and consensus-seeking.

RDKirk said:

It seems your idea of "submission" necessarily involves some level of humiliation.

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Not necessarily, but that's the kind I object to. And when we drag military comparisons into marriage, it seems inevitable.

Paidiske said:

Yes, but he was also part of it. It wasn't something ruling over him in a dictatorial way. The process was participatory and consensus-seeking.

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If the consensus had not been in accord with his opinion--and he was not the leader of the counsel--he would have submitted to the consensus.

And of course, there were second-tier disciples like Timothy who submitted to their leadership even to things they certainly didn't relish, such as being circumcised at Paul's command merely to satisfy people who were certifiably wrong about the necessity of circumcision.

RDKirk said:

If the consensus had not been in accord with his opinion--and he was not the leader of the counsel--he would have submitted to the consensus.

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You know, I'm just not so sure about that... But since there was consensus, the matter can only be an interesting hypothetical.

Paidiske said:

You know, I'm just not so sure about that... But since there was consensus, the matter can only be an interesting hypothetical.

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I think you're just triggering on the word "submission."

RDKirk said:

I think you're just triggering on the word "submission."

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That's very dismissive.

What I'm concerned about is any relationship dynamic which reduces the dignity and agency of anyone involved. What I see too often is that "submission" is used as an excuse to avoid the hard work of creating relationship dynamics which truly foster the human flourishing before God of everyone involved.

That's why I keep banging on about equality; because then both spouses have their voices, needs, gifts, and so on respected.

~Cassia~ said:

Obviously some things are best left unsaid. After debating over this on cf for going on a dozen years I just need to not. Taking the summer off to do other things but hope ya'll get of one mind about this topic sooner than later.

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Have a great summer.

You may enjoy a book by Dr. Debbie Cherry, "The Strong Willed Wife" .

This lady puts it right out there and fully admits that she is strong willed and it is a definite gift from God,
that she is of this mindset.

She has a very interesting point of view on the roles of a Christian marriage, from her position.

She is a mover and a shaker and gets things done... glad she got this book done.. it is a blessing to the Christian women.

JacksBratt said:

Have a great summer.

You may enjoy a book by Dr. Debbie Cherry, "The Strong Willed Wife" .

This lady puts it right out there and fully admits that she is strong willed and it is a definite gift from God,
that she is of this mindset.

She has a very interesting point of view on the roles of a Christian marriage, from her position.

She is a mover and a shaker and gets things done... glad she got this book done.. it is a blessing to the Christian women.

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Thanks, you too. I just came in from some lovely sunbathing ... glorious sunshine! You may be interested in looking at the links from this blog also.
https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/4-common-misconceptions-egalitarianism

part 1
https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/mutuality-adam-eve