Let's start at the beginning... Is there a God who knows absolutely everything...?

Valetic said:

Everyone knows God in heaven didn't write the entire bible personally. I do believe the writers were inspired of God and honestly it might as well be as if God himself wrote it. God wrote the 10 commandments. I'd even be willing to go so far as to say that God himself wrote genesis chapter 1, and that Adam wrote chapter 2.

The only time peoples "understanding of God" changed throughout the bible is when new covenants were instituted and inspired by God to men. And from my reading through the OT there weren't any major changes to people's understanding of God, He is the ancient of days and he does not change. Jesus was God in the flesh I believe. And His teachings for everyone were perfect. He could even read peoples thoughts. So to me of course he was wildly different than anything people had heard of before.

The so called word of God was quoted many times by Jesus to affirm who He was. People didn't reject Him because they believed in the so called word. They rejected Him because they didn't believe in Him. They didn't believe He was the anointed one their so called word of God prophesied about. Their hearts were hard, they made an idol of their religion even if it was the word of God. When Moses climbed down the mountain the people crafted the golden calf literally to represent God and it infuriated Him. The Pharisees in essence were much worse because they crucified the Man! Jesus came and set up a new covenant. He brought teachings nobody has ever heard yes, but when has a new doctrine or teaching come to earth whereby God himself sets up a new covenant like in times past? It hasn't happened. It's not going to happen. We already know the future and that's to reign with Christ forever after all the evil has been cast into the furnace.

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We differ in our beliefs about the Bible. To me they are as imperfect as we should expect them to be.

Fallible men don’t write infallible books. Religion has imperfect men making imperfect descisions. Holy men who were capable of killing the Son of God were capable of writing vastly exaggerated history about themselves as “God’s chosen people”. We know the earth is old and life evolved from primitive life forms. I believe that life was created and planted by celestial beings 550,000,000 years ago.

Jesus quoted from the true contents of scripture to the extent that his words were adiquatly recalled when the gospels were written.

Neogaia777 said:

They had some very strict rules, and great fear of God in "Changing" it/them at all though... One was put to death if they made even one single word or letter mistake or error in copying them...



That was not a corrupt priesthood at that time, and how they were about making any mistakes in even copying, let alone "changing" anything, well...?

Moses wrote the Torah, and wrote it all down, in his day and age while he was alive (They had writing then)... And the way they treated that Torah, and all books written after it (first written down during their/those times and days) was in such high regard that making even one mistake in even copying it/them, let alone changing it, was punishable by death...

So, I don't think it changed much from the originals...

Kind David had the scrolls and read them, so did Cyrus, and that was before Babylon...

God Bless!

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They had great fear of God for changing anything in the preveous writings?????

They didn’t have “great fear of God” when it came to putting the Son of God through a trumped up trial and had him killed!!! Hello??????? What the Jews have is great PRIDE!

Moses predates the Hebrew of the OT by 1,000 years.

Where are the scripture books from Abraham to Moses?

Moses was a reformer of the beliefs and preveous practices of the Israelites in Egypt for 200+ years. Mose broke the preveous “tablets” on mount Sini.

Colter said:

We differ in our beliefs about the Bible. To me they are as imperfect as we should expect them to be.

Fallible men don’t write infallible books. Religion has imperfect men making imperfect descisions. Holy men who were capable of killing the Son of God were capable of writing vastly exaggerated history about themselves as “God’s chosen people”. We know the earth is old and life evolved from primitive life forms. I believe that life was created and planted by celestial beings 550,000,000 years ago.

Jesus quoted from the true contents of scripture to the extent that his words were adiquatly recalled when the gospels were written.

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The men that killed Jesus weren't holy. The bible is mostly accounts of past lives drawn up and written, of men who WERE Godly. It doesn't take a godly man to write about a godly man. They are historical events. If part of the bible is wrong then the whole thing is wrong, and you would have seen Jesus, the man claiming to be God, quoting from more texts than just the OT. The bible is the only book in history that truly authenticates and assures His identity from cover to cover. The entire book isn't even about anyone else when you look at the big picture. The entire old testament was pointing to His arrival, He showed up, released you from being hellbound, now we have instructions as well as a future to look forward to for His return. It all points to Him. He wouldn't have used a different word than His own. And one day all of creation will worship Him all together. And we will live happily ever after.

Valetic said:

The men that killed Jesus weren't holy. The bible is mostly accounts of past lives drawn up and written, of men who WERE Godly. It doesn't take a godly man to write about a godly man. They are historical events. If part of the bible is wrong then the whole thing is wrong, and you would have seen Jesus, the man claiming to be God, quoting from more texts than just the OT. The bible is the only book in history that truly authenticates and assures His identity from cover to cover. The entire book isn't even about anyone else when you look at the big picture. The entire old testament was pointing to His arrival, He showed up, released you from being hellbound, now we have instructions as well as a future to look forward to for His return. It all points to Him. He wouldn't have used a different word than His own. And one day all of creation will worship Him all together. And we will live happily ever after.

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Jesus didn’t rely on the scripture for his authority. His authority was/is inherent. The Father revealed in the life of Christ was very different than the God of the Old Testament which was a reflection of the authors rather than the character of God. But the scriptures of Judaism were what Jesus had to work with.

My faith is in God NOT in the religious-nationalistic-propaganda documents written by the elite Israelite priest class who elevated themselves high above their Semitic cousins in the region like Lucifer elevated himself.

It doesn’t bother my faith in God that there are obvious mistakes in the scripture books.

How many fighting men were found in Israel?

• Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
• One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

Colter said:

Jesus didn’t rely on the scripture for his authority. His authority was/is inherent. The Father revealed in the life of Christ was very different than the God of the Old Testament which was a reflection of the authors rather than the character of God. But the scriptures of Judaism were what Jesus had to work with.

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I didn't say he relied on it. You can't have the word and no spirit. You can't have the spirit and no word. Jesus was simply found quoting it, mostly pointing out Jewish hypocrisy. It definitely wasn't the only religion at the time. Everything else was either heretical or idolatrous. It wasn't all He had to work with. When he was tempted by Satan the only remarks he made to him were OT quotes until He told him to leave. His disciples were Jewish weren't they? But they weren't nearly as prideful as the Pharisees when Jesus met them.

I am a man born of God. I rely on both the spirit and the word. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. Essentially what you are telling me is that the bible is uninspired of God but some of it is true, particularly the life of Jesus Christ. So a real truth seeker should pick and choose the parts that are right and fit what so called celestial beings channel through humans into teachings. I used to be one I know how it works lol the problem I found was my object of faith and object of worship, and my expression of those things. I didnt recieve those messages from the Holy Spirit, they just "complimented" what the Holy Spirit did reveal to me and my beliefs around it. Came to find that Christian worship is pure and overflowing with truth, sincerity and expression. After careful examination of the scriptures and research and study and sermons the bible actually has way too much historical evidence to line up with truth seeking doctrines. It actually amazes me right now even how big the God of the bible is. I truly feel like I have huge faith because of my belief in the word.

Valetic said:

I didn't say he relied on it. You can't have the word and no spirit. You can't have the spirit and no word. Jesus was simply found quoting it, mostly pointing out Jewish hypocrisy. It definitely wasn't the only religion at the time. Everything else was either heretical or idolatrous. It wasn't all He had to work with. When he was tempted by Satan the only remarks he made to him were OT quotes until He told him to leave. His disciples were Jewish weren't they? But they weren't nearly as prideful as the Pharisees when Jesus met them.

I am a man born of God. I rely on both the spirit and the word. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. Essentially what you are telling me is that the bible is uninspired of God but some of it is true, particularly the life of Jesus Christ. So a real truth seeker should pick and choose the parts that are right and fit what so called celestial beings channel through humans into teachings. I used to be one I know how it works lol the problem I found was my object of faith and object of worship, and my expression of those things. I didnt recieve those messages from the Holy Spirit, they just "complimented" what the Holy Spirit did reveal to me and my beliefs around it. Came to find that Christian worship is pure and overflowing with truth, sincerity and expression. After careful examination of the scriptures and research and study and sermons the bible actually has way too much historical evidence to line up with truth seeking doctrines. It actually amazes me right now even how big the God of the bible is. I truly feel like I have huge faith because of my belief in the word.

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I understand your reasoning, what's important is that you have faith.

I believe that truth is the Living Word. The written word is mans attempt to preserve the truth for future generations.

Jesus chose 12 common laborer's to start out fresh like children in trusting the original gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven. He warned us about putting the new wine into the old wineskins, or sewing new cloth onto the old.

I don't approach God through the Bible, I approach the Bible through God, making full allowance for the imperfection of men.

Colter said:

I don't approach God through the Bible, I approach the Bible through God, making full allowance for the imperfection of men.

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I just don't understand where the bible went wrong then. Maybe you know but I haven't any idea.

Valetic said:

I just don't understand where the bible went wrong then. Maybe you know but I haven't any idea.

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Nothing touched by man can be considered infallible. The lion share of the OT was finalized in Babylon after the Israelites had lost their temple and nation. They found themselves in bondage once again. They converted an ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction. It all came to a head when the rejected Jesus.

Colter said:

Nothing touched by man can be considered infallible. The lion share of the OT was finalized in Babylon after the Israelites had lost their temple and nation. They found themselves in bondage once again. They converted an ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction. It all came to a head when the rejected Jesus.

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That still doesn't answer my question to you which would be where the bible went wrong.

Valetic said:

That still doesn't answer my question to you which would be where the bible went wrong.

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From the very first page, the creation account, really 2 accounts woven together, is flat out wrong! The sun is older than the earth which is said to have been created after the earth on the

And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Then on the 4th day the sun and moon are created again:

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. …...And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day

Spores evolved into seeds between 450 - 360 million years ago. The authors of the creation story knew nothing of spores.

It continues, the scripture is riddled with error and contradiction. But they had faith and that's important.

Human speculation by religious leaders in an enchanted age of ignorance. They didn't claim to be writing Gods word. It was a pseudo-biographical story meant for the common, child like mind of bronze age sheep herders. A comprehensive history of the Jewish people.

Colter said:

From the very first page, the creation account, really 2 accounts woven together, is flat out wrong! The sun is older than the earth which is said to have been created after the earth on the

And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Then on the 4th day the sun and moon are created again:

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. …...And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day

Spores evolved into seeds between 450 - 360 million years ago. The authors of the creation story knew nothing of spores.

It continues, the scripture is riddled with error and contradiction. But they had faith and that's important.

Human speculation by religious leaders in an enchanted age of ignorance. They didn't claim to be writing Gods word. It was a pseudo-biographical story meant for the common, child like mind of bronze age sheep herders. A comprehensive history of the Jewish people.

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Okay then tell me what the light was that God created on the first day.

Valetic said:

Okay then tell me what the light was that God created on the first day.

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Who knows, perhaps some free floating light? They said the Sun, moon and stars weren't created until the 3 day. The sun predates the earth and is the source of the material that the planets were formed by due to the accretion of the disk of matter that developed around the sun after its formation.

New Topic: the Bible?!?

My Christ-Following VIEWS:

The Bible (Scripture) is the supreme authority when compared to other writings and precepts.
All of the ACTUAL WORDS therein were "Spirit Inspired", and "superintended" by God.
The ~40 authors and their scribes recorded these words in "original manuscripts" which were without error.
Systematic study of Scripture leads one to the conclusion that it is God's supreme way of speaking to Man.
The "economy" or God's methods of relating to Man changed from Old Testament times to New Testament
due to the historical appearance of Jesus of Nazareth,
The Divine Messiah, The Christ, the God-Man., Son of God, Son of Man, etc
The Bible as a piece of literature is withhout peer, and it has been MIRACULOUSLY remembered, inspired, dictated, written, copied, translated, preserved, interpreted, and distributed.

RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:

John 14:26 ....Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse
"But the Counselor, (God) the Holy Spirit, (Spirit of Truth) whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (PERFECT spirit-led RECALL)

Has the COLLECTION of books and letters as piece of literature that we called the New Testament
passed acceptable TESTS to make it accurate enough to be BELIEVABLE?"

Similar to: " historically accurate?"

PRIMARY TESTS: Authenticity and Authority.
The first passing: all 27 books of the NT were accepted by the Council of Carthage, ~397 AD.
There are more than 5000 manuscripts of the NT...the best attested document of ALL ancient writings.
There are numerous fragments dating from ~135 -800 AD written on papyrus. There are hundreds of accurate parchment
copies produced in the 4th-5th centuries. There are ~86,000 quotations in old Latin, Latin, Syriac, and Egyptian translations
from the 3rd century. There is more scholarly work done on this piece of literature than any other in existence.(Ryrie 2084)

Conclusion: The New Testament translations in ANY version have been based on copious, reliable,accurate, authentic words
from "authors" who were authorized and accepted "historians".

What the Bible says about itself:

2 Timothy 3: 14-17...All Scripture is God-breathed
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

2 Peter 1: 19-21...Bible "produced" by Men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
So we have the prophetic WORD (Scripture) made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place,
until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
But know this first of all, that
no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but
men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Luke 24:27, 32, 44-45...the post resurrection super BIBLE study...He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures
he (Jesus) explained to them (2 Emmaus followers) what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.
They said to one another,
“Were not our hearts burning within us (Holy Spirit?) while He was speaking to us on the road,
while He (Jesus) was explaining the Scriptures to us?”
(...at the "fish fry" to His followers)
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you,
that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Colter said:

Who knows, perhaps some free floating light? They said the Sun, moon and stars weren't created until the 3 day. The sun predates the earth and is the source of the material that the planets were formed by due to the accretion of the disk of matter that developed around the sun after its formation.

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The sun predates the earth according to man yet you treat it as infallible evidence because man has convinced you it is so. The bible is God's word and says that the earth predates the sun. But it's fallible to men because the very men God Himself anointed to write these things down put their "imperfect hands" on the pen to the paper. Who's words were they? God's words. What did He say about His word? Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." What book is it we draw His words from? Hmm.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread so I'll stop here, if you wish to discuss the matter further send me a PM.

Valetic said:

The sun predates the earth according to man yet you treat it as infallible evidence because man has convinced you it is so. The bible is God's word and says that the earth predates the sun. But it's fallible to men because the very men God Himself anointed to write these things down put their "imperfect hands" on the pen to the paper. Who's words were they? God's words. What did He say about His word? Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." What book is it we draw His words from? Hmm.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread so I'll stop here, if you wish to discuss the matter further send me a PM.

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The earth, the layers of fossilized life, the meteorites from our solar system, speed of light, radiometric dating, physics all demonstrate a completely different reality then that of the the Hebrews racial centric creation story.

I agree Jesus words are eternal, the superstitions and exaggerations of the Hebrew priest class gave wildly been debunked.

Take care

One can't be all knowing and all powerful at the same time.

scottyp588 said:

One can't be all knowing and all powerful at the same time.

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They can if they're God.

Unless you are saying that either God doesn't know everything, or that he can't do/control everything.

Strong in Him said:

They can if they're God.

Unless you are saying that either God doesn't know everything, or that he can't do/control everything.

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Its hard to make sense of it. Would love to know your thoughts on how they don't contradict each other. (Or anyone else's for that matter)

Its a concept that I sometimes struggle with.