Images of Jesus, right or wrong?

zoidar

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I am an artist an am also wondering about this. I have lots of stuff I would like to create but am perplexed as if I should or not. Like the tree of life with the archangel protecting it with the flaming sword. That kind of stuff. Attached is a piece I did that I'm really not sure if its a sin or not.

Looking at your work, I believe you should focus more on Christian motives. Not being disrespective, but it looks like an image that could have come from a New Ager, with the third eye and such things. I encourage you to go all in for Christian motives, especially since you have that longing. It may be a blessing for people. ;)
 
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zoidar

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A funny thing is that you may be accused of legalism because you have an image of Jesus, when those accusing you put themself in the same position they accuse you of. If you have a picture of Jesus and you worship that image, then you are in one ditch, if you forbid images of Jesus you place yourself in the other. Non of these ditches are in any service of God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Since we got into to a discussion in another thread about this, I decided to make this thread. So what do you think, is it right to make or have images of Jesus, why, why not?
Yahweh in His Word clearly forbids it.

Mankind in its sin and worship likes making idols and practicing idolatry. (very common)
 
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zoidar

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Yahweh in His Word clearly forbids it.

Mankind in its sin and worship likes making idols and practicing idolatry. (very common)

Everyone is against practicing idolatry. Where does the Bible say that having images of Christ is wrong?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Everyone is against practicing idolatry. Where does the Bible say that images of Christ is wrong?
Are you being serious !? (I am somewhat surprised and incredulous (I think) )
It is like the basic Instructions from Yahweh the Creator , always.
(it is especially bad if in the last 144 posts there have not already been several Ekklesia posting this )

Think of the ten commandments. (not the ones the rcc has, but in the Bible originally)

Remember? Have you read them in Scripture ? Or even today in Wikipedia ?

Ten Commandments
  • I am the LORD thy God.
  • No other gods before me.
  • No graven images or likenesses.
  • Not take the LORD's name in vain.
  • Remember the sabbath day.
  • Honour thy father and thy mother.
  • Thou shalt not kill.
  • Thou shalt not commit adultery.
More items...
Ten Commandments - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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(continued)
Exodus 20:4
KJ21
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
ASV
Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
AMP
“You shall not make for yourself any idol, or any likeness (form, manifestation) of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth [as an object to worship].
AMPC
You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it] or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
BRG
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
CSB
Do not make an idol for yourself, whether in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.
CEB
Do not make an idol for yourself—no form whatsoever—of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.
CJB
You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline.
 
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zoidar

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Are you being serious !? (I am somewhat surprised and incredulous (I think) )
It is like the basic Instructions from Yahweh the Creator , always.
(it is especially bad if in the last 144 posts there have not already been several Ekklesia posting this )

Think of the ten commandments. (not the ones the rcc has, but in the Bible originally)

Remember? Have you read them in Scripture ? Or even today in Wikipedia ?

Ten Commandments
  • I am the LORD thy God.
  • No other gods before me.
  • No graven images or likenesses.
  • Not take the LORD's name in vain.
  • Remember the sabbath day.
  • Honour thy father and thy mother.
  • Thou shalt not kill.
  • Thou shalt not commit adultery.
More items...
Ten Commandments - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

You need to read what the commandment really says.

No graven images or likenesses of what? Of God? No it doesn't say that. It says no graven images or likenessess of different creatures for worship.

Let's look at what Exodus 20:4-5 say.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them ; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God

You shall not make yourself any idol or likeness of anything that is in heaven above, of those creatures that fly in the sky, birds ... or on the earth beneath the sky, i.o.w. on land, horses, cats ... or of those that are in the water under the earth, fishes. So can't we make images of creatures, is that what is being said? No, we are not to make images of animals for worship. You are not to make your own God. That is what the commandment is about. If you do make your own God, God will be jealous. Why would He be jealous if you make an image of Him?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You need to read what the commandment really says.

No graven images or likenesses of what? Of God? No it doesn't say that. It says no graven images or likenessess of different creatures for worship.
You just posted it yourself - no graven images or likenesses of "ANYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE" ...
and more clearly and further understood:
AMP“You shall not make for yourself any idol, or any likeness (form, manifestation) of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth [as an object to worship].

Yahweh's People understood this and never made any images or statues of Yahweh, nor later of Yahshua (Jesus), nor of angels , and never anything to bow down to in worship as the pagans always do. Tradition of course changed all this (as if it could), but only in disobedience to Yahweh and His Word.
 
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zoidar

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You just posted it yourself - no graven images or likenesses of "ANYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE" ...
and more clearly and further understood:
AMP“You shall not make for yourself any idol, or any likeness (form, manifestation) of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth [as an object to worship].

Yahweh's People understood this and never made any images or statues of Yahweh, nor later of Yahshua (Jesus), nor of angels , and never anything to bow down to in worship as the pagans always do. Tradition of course changed all this (as if it could), but only in disobedience to Yahweh and His Word.

In heaven above still means birds etc.

It is clear, that you should not make any graven image [as an object to worship].

I don't understand how having a painting on the wall would be the same as worship. Worship is when we pray TO an image of any kind.
 
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Mark_Sam

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Yahweh's People understood this and never made any images or statues of Yahweh, nor later of Yahshua (Jesus), nor of angels , and never anything to bow down to in worship as the pagans always do. Tradition of course changed all this (as if it could), but only in disobedience to Yahweh and His Word.
Except that one time when God specifically commanded his people to make graven images of angels, out of gold, to be used in worship (read: not to be worshipped, but to be used in worship):
"And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. Of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be." (Exodus 25:18-20)
 
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I have images of Jesus, statue and pics etc.

I dont see them as idolotry as my mind is focused on Jesus, God. I am not looking at a 'god' as seen by the early jews who worshipped the golden calf. Christians who have the many images of Jesus in their homes and churches are being reminded of their love of God, thier love 'for' God.

God can read our minds. He undoubtedly knows who we see, who we worship. Idoltry, for me, is worshipping a 'false' god. Christian are worshipping the 'true' God.
 
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It is only a violation that if one bows down and worships it. Read the whole passage and not just a couple of words in it.

No. Leviticus 26:1 clarifies the command in Exodus 20:4-5, when it says,

"Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

Okay.

The part in red is saying:

#1. You shall not make any idols or graven images (Which is obviously talking about any images of a deity or God). Nothing is mentioned about bowing down to them.

The part in purple and blue is saying:

#2. Neither (which starts a NEW sentence or idea) set up any image of stone to bow down to it.

The part in red is saying not to even have idol images. The part in purple and blue is saying not to have images so as to bow yourself down to them. These are two unique concepts or ideas going on here. God does not want us to do one or the other. So just having images of God (or a false deity) is forbidden.

Here is another in the New Testament that hints at how God is not like unto a graven image or idol (that men make):

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." (Acts of the Apostles 17:29).

Deuteronomy 7 says,

"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God." (Deuteronomy 7:25).

So according to Deuteronomy 7:25, you are not even supposed to have idol images. God tells us to destroy idols. Yet, you are saying it is okay to have them as long as you don't bow down to them. That to me is just silly.
 
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I have images of Jesus, statue and pics etc.

I dont see them as idolotry as my mind is focused on Jesus, God. I am not looking at a 'god' as seen by the early jews who worshipped the golden calf. Christians who have the many images of Jesus in their homes and churches are being reminded of their love of God, thier love 'for' God.

God can read our minds. He undoubtedly knows who we see, who we worship. Idoltry, for me, is worshipping a 'false' god. Christian are worshipping the 'true' God.

My dear fellow believer in Christ:

Please take no offense, but the Bible says,

"There is a way that seems right unto a man...."

In other words, if we go by what we just thought and not what the Bible says, the end will always lead to a path that is not good.

God commands that we destroy idol images.

"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God." (Deuteronomy 7:25).

This means that we are not to even have possession of them. Any image or graven image of a deity is an idol and God says we are to destroy them according to Deuteronomy 7:25. For if God was fine with us having idol images as long as we don't bow down to them, then He would never say within His Word to destroy such idol images. God would simply try to tell His people to resist thinking that these idol images are gods or to resist in thinking that these objects hold some kind of special power to focus their prayers to these other false gods or deities. But is that what happened? No. God told His people to destroy their idol images. So this means we have to do the same thing, as well.
 
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You need to read what the commandment really says.

No graven images or likenesses of what? Of God? No it doesn't say that. It says no graven images or likenessess of different creatures for worship.

No, my friend. Deuteronomy 4 clarifies Exodus 20 to include that we are not to make images of men or women (who are deity or god like figures), too.

16 "Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven."
(Deuteronomy 4:16-19).

See, it is not a problem to make an image or statue of a person or animal. The problem is when somebody erects a statue or image and says that this is a representation of their god or a being who has God like powers (making such a being like God). So if men erect images of Mary, so as to focus their prayers to her, I have to reject that because people treat that as an idol. They use that image to focus their prayers to her (so as to get her to pray to God). Why not just go to Jesus (Who is God) directly? Jesus is our mediator between God and man. Not Mary. It makes no sense. She also cannot answer millions of prayers like God can. She is only human. The statues are well known to represent what many like myself feel is idolatry (No offense if anyone here is Catholic). So if I found a statue of Mary in my home by some strange chance, I would destroy it or thrown it out immediately. For such an image or statue is revered by men as being like a deity (because they have given Mary god like powers that only God has). God says in Deuteronomy 7 to destroy idols. He doesn't say we can keep them around as long as we don't bow down to them.

"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God." (Deuteronomy 7:25).
 
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Now, I want to clarify what I believe here. Is creating ANY kind of image or statue of something that is art related evil? No. It is only a problem when men start to make a particular image or statue so as to represent their deity or god, or they use it like some kind of magical telephone so as to contact their false deity or god. So when should we destroy such idols or images? When we know that such idols or images are revered by other men as being idols. So if someone mailed me a statue of Mary, I would destroy it or throw it out immediately because I know men revere such a thing as an idol. If someone mailed me cute little stuffed animal, I would not throw it (if I liked it) because such a thing is not commonly known as being revered as an idol by men today. But if it became a snare unto men in the future, I would have no problem destroying it (or getting rid of it).
 
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Except that one time when God specifically commanded his people to make graven images of angels, out of gold, to be used in worship (read: not to be worshipped, but to be used in worship):
"And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. Of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be." (Exodus 25:18-20)

Not the same thing.

Exodus 20:4-5 is in regards to making an image or graven image (statue) of a deity or god.

The command to make the Ark (which included two Cherubim on it) were not depictions of any known images or idols of any false deities or gods at that time. Surely if the Israelites had a problem in worshiping angels and they erected statues of angels during that time, God would never have told them to put two angels on top of the Ark. But seeing it was not a problem at the time, God was within His right to tell them to make two angels on top of the Ark. Why? Because they were not representations of any deity or god.

The pics and statues of Jesus today are representations of God (Because Jesus is God). This is a violation of the command on idolatry in Exodus 20:4-5. For that passage is talking about making images in regards to deities or God.
 
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No. Romans 14 is not excusing idolatry, but is correctly dealing with adiaphora in the Church. We need to carefully discriminate between the freedom we have in Christ, and that which is sinful.

Imagery in and of itself is not any more sinful than words; that is, they can be, but they are not sinful by default. What you're getting at is Aniconism, which you can read all about here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Christianity

Any form of idolatry is sin. However, knowing that there is only one God, we can be assured that an idol in itself is nothing, as explained in 1 Corinthians 8. Again, here we can see Paul talking about the freedom and confidence we have in Christ.

Let me give a practical example of how a poor application of Exodus 20:4-5 can easily spin out of control:

A) How many pen strokes are you allowed before an image of Christ becomes a sin?
B) Is an abstract rendition of Christ OK?
C) What if I re-arrange the letters of "JESUS" to look like a figure?
D) If I believe something that has been made looks like Christ, is it sin? (Pareidolia)
With situations like the above, it becomes an arbitrary and artificial line to draw, which is not in the Bible, but is typical of Judaism and Islam, that has no place in the Gospel, for the Gospel is not a matter of "do not handle, do not touch", but is rather a matter of God's grace.

Or:
1. Is a cross OK? Would it not be worship of wood, silver, gold and stone?
2. Is the Ichthys OK? Would it not be worship of a fish?
3. Is the Agnus Dei OK? Would it not be worship of a lamb?
4. Is a crucifix OK? Would it not be re-crucifying Christ? Would it not be worship of a false Christ?
No - not by merit of being a symbol. These means are neither holy nor unholy in and of themselves, for they are only outward means and confessions, whereas we worship the one true God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and one true Lord Jesus Christ. However, if someone were to treat an image as something holy and divine, then it becomes problematic and a form of idolatry. Therefore, Iconography is correctly adiaphora.

It's helpful to properly understand what adiaphora is.

Positively:
- Adiaphora are all things neither commanded nor forbidden in Scripture. They are kept for the purpose of edification, discipline and good order in the church. They have to do with the freedom we have in Christ.

- Genuine adiaphora, or matters of indifference, in and of themselves, are no worship of God, nor any part of it, but must be properly distinguished from such as are, as it's written in Matthew 15:9

- The congregation of God of every place and every time has, according to its circumstances, the good right, power, and authority in matters truly adiaphora to change, to diminish, and to increase them, without thoughtlessness and offense, in an orderly and becoming way, as at any time it may be regarded most profitable, most beneficial, and best for preserving good order, maintaining Christian discipline and for eujtaxiva worthy of the profession of the Gospel, and the edification of the Church. Moreover, how we can yield and give way with a good conscience to the weak in faith in such external adiaphora, Paul teaches in Romans 14, and proves it by his example in Acts 16:3; Acts 21:26; 1 Corinthians 9:19.

Negatively:
- When under the title and pretext of external adiaphora such things are proposed as are in principle contrary to God's Word, these are not to be regarded as adiaphora.

- When there are useless, foolish displays, that are profitable neither for good order nor Christian discipline, nor evangelical propriety in the Church, these also are not genuine adiaphora, or matters of indifference.

- Adiaphora is not to be forced nor demanded, and so injure or burden our neighbour, as if it was a requirement of our faith. This was taught by the Apostles, by the early church (cf. Easter Controversy), at the Reformation (cf. Augsburg Confession) and still held today. Any adiaphora that cause harm is to be avoided.

Lastly, I think there are other channels of idolatry that are much more common and problematic in our time, such as the love for security and comfort, love for pleasure, love of self in form of pride, love of status and career, love for individualism and disregard for our neighbour, love for personal interpretation and disregard for the church and schism etc, which are all idolatry.

I'm sorry for this lengthy post, but I hope you can appreciate that - even if you hold Christian imagery to be sin - a significant portion of the church disagree, and for good Biblical reasons, and therefore it's good to be patient and not judge one another.

Again, Romans 14 mentions nothing about owning a known statue or image of a deity or God. You are adding to Scripture.

God tells us within His Word to destroy an known idols or images that men revere as being like gods or deities.

"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God." (Deuteronomy 7:25).

You say it is okay to have images of gods. Yet, God's Word says otherwise.
Granted, I am not saying a person cannot draw or make a statue. The problem only arises when a group of men start to wrongfully make that particular image or statue into an object for their worship or prayer (treating that image as if it is a god or a being who has God like powers). For example: Many believe in using statues of Mary to pray to her. This to me is an idol because this image is commonly known among many today as being a special object to help contact Mary by prayer (Which I believe is forbidden). No man shall pray to anyone but God. For only God has the power to answer prayer.
 
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Actually I had a vision. I normally don't talk about it, but I did. I know it was real, but I will probably not be able to convince you of that.



Let's look at what Exodus 20:4-5 say.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them ; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God

You shall not make yourself any idol or likeness of anything that is in heaven above, of those creatures that fly in the sky, birds ... or on the earth beneath the sky, i.o.w. on land, horses, cats ... or of those that are in the water under the earth, fishes. So can't we make images of creatures, is that what is being said? No, we are not to make images of animals for worship. You are not to make your own God. That is what the commandment is about. If you do make your own God, God will be jealous. Why would He be jealous if you make an image of Him?

I also believe if we have the Holy Spirit we know Christ not only by character but also by appearance. If Christ walked by us today on the street, we would recognize him, because we know him. So I believe if we know Christ through the Holy Spirit, we also know him by looks.

And before anyone asks, why there then are different images of Jesus. I believe because many who paint Jesus don't know him through the Holy Spirit, and those that do know him paint him from how they see him. If I and my brother both painted my dad (from the memory), there would be two different pictures of him, since we recognize and focus on different things in his appearance. Even so the pictures would likely have similarities, same obvious character features, like a beard, long hair etc.

I just replied to you on this in post #155, my friend.
 
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Would it be accurate to say that you consider all illustrated Bibles, for children or adults, as idolatrous?
You would oppose handouts/coloring pages etc for children's Sunday School teaching about Christ also as idolatry?

I see idolatry as men treating certain objects or images as being a representation of their God or in having some kind of power to contact God. If mankind all of a sudden started to worship Jesus using the false images in Children's Bibles, I would throw away any Children's Bible in my possession. While people do not generally display coloring books and Children's Bibles on their walls or in their homes as idol images (in most cases) to focus their prayers to Jesus, I would say it is potential for idolatry (but not exactly idolatry in every case). Why? Because most people (today) do not open up a Children's Bible with a picture of Jesus and pray to Jesus using that Children's Bible (while using that false picture of Jesus in their mind). At least not today, anyways. I would personally strive not to openly display false images of Jesus, and not buy a book that has false pics of Jesus. But owning such a book does not mean one is in possession of an idol. One would have to cut the page out of the book and display it on the wall for them and others to see all the time as a constant image of who they believe to be God. If one realizes that the pic is not the actual Jesus (and they do not constantly display it) and it is merely a tool to teach children, there is no real problem (Especially if they say to the children that is not what Jesus really looks like).

You said:
I'm not sure if you have said whether you extend that to depictions of other Bible/historical characters, such as Daniel or David and Goliath, others etc. If not, then we've both been said to be ridiculous and lacking common sense:

These characters were never revered as gods or deities. So it is not an issue to have drawings of them in a book. These characters in the Bible were never representations of God.

You said:
The discussion is interesting to me on a few points, such as - how far is this iconoclasm extended in modern times? Also, since this issue was addressed in depth by those far more adept than most of us at the Second Council of Nicea, it would seem the old adage is true; those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

God says in Deuteronomy 7:25 to destroy idols. God would never say this to us if we could simply keep images or statues of idols around as long as we do not bow down to them. Obviously God does not even want us having idols around to begin with.

Again, I define an idol as any object or image that men revere as being like a god or deity that they use in their worship or contact of their god. If they openly display such a pic, they are seeking to embed that false image of God in their mind and or in the minds of others. If it is in some closed book somewhere and they do not think it is really God, and they are not constantly filling their mind with that false image in their home every day (by displaying it openly every day), then it is not an idol.
 
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