Discussion Dare not to call yourself spirit filled if..

Alithis · Jul 1, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I just love Oscar.

I didn't know you lived in NZ. My mother was Australian from Toowoomba, Q'ld.

I remember driving from Wellington to Auckland, and all around NZ. My favorite was the Glow Worm caves. Awe-inspiring.

i am NZ born and raised but now we are full time missionaries .presently in Fiji .

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 1, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Friend, I think that other denomination is rubbing off on you...

First sentence. You left off the rest of the verse - the condition; and by doing so, have created a new doctrine. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Another sentence I don't happen to agree with is "We know that we could never be perfectly holy in this life," and with that attitude we never will. Not only are we dead to sin (a fact), we need to also reckon ourselves dead to sin. There is life and death in the power of tongue, and if we keep lying to ourselves that we are still sinners, we fail before we begin and quench the Spirit.

I know you know the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives - or have you forgotten...?

It is interesting to note that the second part of the verse which you have written in red does not appear in the earliest Greek manuscripts, but was added in later ones. It appears that the second part was added to suit a particular theology that involved increasing legalism in the later centuries after the first century. The earliest manuscript that we have is dated the fourth century and the second part of the verse does not appear in it. So it appears that right up to and beyond the fourth century there is no mention of having to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. It appears that the verse states "there is no condemnation to those in Christ" full stop, and this was what was accepted in at least the first 400 years of the early Church.

The inclusion of the second part of the verse draws believers into a performance-based religious observance and draws them away from a purely faith in the finished work of Christ based Christianity.

Now, having said that, we are totally free from any condemnation through the finished work of Christ and nothing else; but we need to produce the fruit of repentance in order to live in fellowship and the will of God for our lives. Our salvation does not depend on our religious or moral performance, but fulfilling the purpose of God for our lives does. We need to know the difference.

Alithis · Jul 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
It is interesting to note that the second part of the verse which you have written in red does not appear in the earliest Greek manuscripts, but was added in later ones. It appears that the second part was added to suit a particular theology that involved increasing legalism in the later centuries after the first century. The earliest manuscript that we have is dated the fourth century and the second part of the verse does not appear in it. So it appears that right up to and beyond the fourth century there is no mention of having to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. It appears that the verse states "there is no condemnation to those in Christ" full stop, and this was what was accepted in at least the first 400 years of the early Church.

The inclusion of the second part of the verse draws believers into a performance-based religious observance and draws them away from a purely faith in the finished work of Christ based Christianity.

Now, having said that, we are totally free from any condemnation through the finished work of Christ and nothing else; but we need to produce the fruit of repentance in order to live in fellowship and the will of God for our lives. Our salvation does not depend on our religious or moral performance, but fulfilling the purpose of God for our lives does. We need to know the difference.

there is a lot of this going around lately ..this or that text doesn't appear in THE early greek manuscript ? question - WHICH early Greek manuscript ? it seems there are questions also arising to the fact that some even earlier manuscripts DO contain it and other verses under attack ... im not expert .

but - why would it be omitted when Paul ALSO stated the SAME clear principle later in the text in romans saying "
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."- the highlighted sentence is directly condemning and makes no sense if the second half of the afore mentioned verse is absent .

Also Paul states -"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." because to gratify the flesh you have to rebell against the Holy Spirit and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft .you will certainly not enter the kingdom of God while doing so .
Paul also stated already "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?-if you obey sin ..its unto death , this is also directly condemning ,in direct contrast to the first hald of that verse with the 2nd hald missing .
paul also states
....."Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others....." showing that it was a past tense that we lived that way and if we still live that way we are the children of wrath Still... again very condemning
again he writes "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming."so we see again there is certinly a condemnation to those that continue as they once did .. and how do we NOT continue that way?

we walk In the spirit and we wont fulfill the desire of the flesh .and THEN we wil not be condemned . because paul is speaking of the condemnation that comes via the law . and elsewhere he says But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. " and THIS is a biggy , Because if we are not led by the spirit ,then we remain under the law and therefore under the condemnation of the law .

so to leave out the latter half of the verse brings a mockery to the entire text .
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
if we do not live in ,according to, compliant with ,obedient to ,the holy Spirit, then we are NOT in the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus but under the law of sin and death and FULL condemnation unto Death awaits .
extract that half verse and you contradict and undermine the entire message -

now have a think -who would seek to do that ? OF course such verses are under attack .

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 1, 2018

Alithis said:
there is a lot of this going around lately ..this or that text doesn't appear in THE early greek manuscript ? question - WHICH early Greek manuscript ? it seems there are questions also arising to the fact that some even earlier manuscripts DO contain it and other verses under attack ... im not expert .

but - why would it be omitted when Paul ALSO stated the SAME clear principle later in the text in romans saying "
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."- the highlighted sentence is directly condemning and makes no sense if the second half of the afore mentioned verse is absent .

Also Paul states -"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." because to gratify the flesh you have to rebell against the Holy Spirit and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft .you will certainly not enter the kingdom of God while doing so .
Paul also stated already "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?-if you obey sin ..its unto death , this is also directly condemning ,in direct contrast to the first hald of that verse with the 2nd hald missing .
paul also states
....."Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others....." showing that it was a past tense that we lived that way and if we still live that way we are the children of wrath Still... again very condemning
again he writes "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming."so we see again there is certinly a condemnation to those that continue as they once did .. and how do we NOT continue that way?

we walk In the spirit and we wont fulfill the desire of the flesh .and THEN we wil not be condemned . because paul is speaking of the condemnation that comes via the law . and elsewhere he says But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. " and THIS is a biggy , Because if we are not led by the spirit ,then we remain under the law and therefore under the condemnation of the law .

so to leave out the latter half of the verse brings a mockery to the entire text .
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
if we do not live in ,according to, compliant with ,obedient to ,the holy Spirit, then we are NOT in the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus but under the law of sin and death and FULL condemnation unto Death awaits .
extract that half verse and you contradict and undermine the entire message -

now have a think -who would seek to do that ? OF course such verses are under attack .

The point is that our release from condemnation is not related to our performance as Christians. That is upon the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection and it is obtained by faith only. This is the Reformed position. We do not obtain salvation by works at all. If we try, then Paul says that those who try to keep the Law in order to be justified put themselves under a curse. But our developmental sanctification depends on how we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to walk worthy of the calling that we have received. Whether in the Old or New Testaments, salvation has always been by grace through faith. In the Old Testament it came through offering sacrifice on the altar. In the New Testament it has come through the perfect, once and for all sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Some legalistic folk who insist on performance based Christianity as a condition for salvation, confuse justification with sanctification. These folk unwittingly, through ignorance, put those who believe their teaching under a curse and stop them short of being truly born again, keeping them still dead in their sins by rejecting the finished work of Christ in favour of trying to keep the Law in order to be justified.

Alithis · Jul 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
The point is that our release from condemnation is not related to our performance as Christians. That is upon the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection and it is obtained by faith only. This is the Reformed position. We do not obtain salvation by works at all. If we try, then Paul says that those who try to keep the Law in order to be justified put themselves under a curse. But our developmental sanctification depends on how we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to walk worthy of the calling that we have received. Whether in the Old or New Testaments, salvation has always been by grace through faith. In the Old Testament it came through offering sacrifice on the altar. In the New Testament it has come through the perfect, once and for all sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Some legalistic folk who insist on performance based Christianity as a condition for salvation, confuse justification with sanctification. These folk unwittingly, through ignorance, put those who believe their teaching under a curse and stop them short of being truly born again, keeping them still dead in their sins by rejecting the finished work of Christ in favour of trying to keep the Law in order to be justified.

the reason we are not saved by works is that the work that needs to be done to save us has already been done by the lord Jesus before we were born .But to benifit from it w must act in faith and faith is not a thing you have a but an action you take based upon what we truly beleive . so because we truly believe Jesus and all he has done we then begin to DO as he says . if we don't ,we are not believers at all but self deceived . you cant do any work to earn a thing that was done for you before you were born . but if you do not walk in the way that he made available to us you will receive the crown of life at the end of that way .and that way is the way of life IN the spirit of Christ Jesus - and any one waling after the Holy Spirit is not condemned because they are not under the law of sin and death any more . remember my interjection into this subtopic is in relation to the second half of roman 8 -1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.for the law of the spirit of life IN Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of Sin and death... if your not walking after the spirit but after the flesh then your not IN Christ Jesus and there IS absolutely condemnation for those .

this is the point i'm focused on here

Chinchilla · Jul 1, 2018

Alithis said:
__warning_ Challenging toward self examination. This topic may cause feelings of being goaded TOWARDS fruitfulness by provoking us to re-evaluate our faith.
(NOTE :the terminology of provoke and goad is used in the positive sense.ie- to goad a sheep bogged down in mud.out of the mud and back onto solid ground)
-------------
Dare not to call yourself “holy Spirit filled“ IF you do not DO as the Holy Spirit sent by the lord Jesus Wills.

There are many spirits.we must TEST the spirits.
A person can be Spirit filled .but not Holy Spirit filled.

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. He said he will take what is of me and give it to you.
He will Not speak of himself.
Hevwill lead you into all truth (Jesus is all truth)
Jesus said -He will glorfy ME.

The holy spirit never leads us to the holy spirit.
The holy Spirit never glorifies the holy Spirit.
The holy spirit never glorifies Angels.
The Holy Spirit never leads us into sin.
The holy Spirits presence is the presence of JESUS. His presence has ZERO to do with what we “FEEL”.
The Holy Spirit never leads us into dubious worldly practices in the name of “ministries”
The Holy Spirit Only ever leads us to do the Will of the Head of the Body .
The head of the Body has openly declared his Will for his body .
It is In the great commission.

Lets not be so quick to claim we are FILLED with the Holy Spirit if we are Not DOING the will of the Lord JESUS which is the ONLY will the Holy Spirit can make known to us.

Was Paul the apostle filled with Holy Spirit ? Yes
Did he disobey Holy Spirit ? Yes

He went to Jerusalem in Acts 21 even tho God told him not to . Do you assume that Paul lost the Holy Spirit by doing so or he was not filled with it ?

Alithis · Jul 1, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Was Paul the apostle filled with Holy Spirit ? Yes
Did he disobey Holy Spirit ? Yes

He went to Jerusalem in Acts 21 even tho God told him not to . Do you assume that Paul lost the Holy Spirit by doing so or he was not filled with it ?

not sure what ypur point is
but
its based on a misconception - paul did not disobey the holy Spirit . the holy Spirit was showing him what was going to take place at Jerusalem . but Paul did not shy away because he knew this was the path that he had to take . Just as at his conversion the lord Jesus said "i have shown him what things he must suffer for my name sake "
read the text again and you will see it is not the holy Spirit telling him to not go,he is just telling him what will happen when he gets there ,it is the other believers who don't want him to go because they don't understand why he would ,they did not understand that the will of god is that we follow Jesus even unto death.

Chinchilla · Jul 1, 2018

Alithis said:
not sure what ypur point is
but
its based on a misconception - paul did not disobey the holy Spirit . the holy Spirit was showing him what was going to take place at Jerusalem . but Paul did not shy away because he knew this was the path that he had to take . Just as at his conversion the lord Jesus said "i have shown him what things he must suffer for my name sake "
read the text again and you will see it is not the holy Spirit telling him to not go,he is just telling him what will happen when he gets there ,it is the other believers who don't want him to go because they don't understand why he would ,they did not understand that the will of god is that we follow Jesus even unto death.

That's a lie and you are twisting the Scriptures , Holy Spirit directly told him not to go witness the feast in Jerusalem but Paul went anyways .

And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

So according to you the others believers said to him not go to by Holy Spirit but by some other Spirit ? Didn't know you can be a belivers and have "other" Spirit inside of you or that Spirit of God is contradicting itself.

HS command was - don't go
Paul went
end of story , he did not do according to the Spirit.
He did not do many things according to what he should do confessing it many times

Romans 7
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that.

1stcenturylady · Jul 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
It is interesting to note that the second part of the verse which you have written in red does not appear in the earliest Greek manuscripts, but was added in later ones.

I wrote about that earlier. However, it was not added later, but deleted; the same way the rest of 1 John 5:7 which those same scholars say was added, was actually deleted. Otherwise, it couldn't have been quoted in 250 A.D.

Oscarr said:
The inclusion of the second part of the verse draws believers into a performance-based religious observance and draws them away from a purely faith in the finished work of Christ based Christianity.

Now, having said that, we are totally free from any condemnation through the finished work of Christ and nothing else; but we need to produce the fruit of repentance in order to live in fellowship and the will of God for our lives. Our salvation does not depend on our religious or moral performance, but fulfilling the purpose of God for our lives does. We need to know the difference.

You're quoting that pesky denomination again, and believing it. Let's see; is Romans 7:14-23 about the struggles of a Christian?

Just curious, isn't working to produce fruit of repentance a contradiction to your other statements? Good! There's hope for you yet.

(I hope you know I love you, brother!)

Alithis · Jul 1, 2018

Chinchilla said:
That's a lie and you are twisting the Scriptures , Holy Spirit directly told him not to go witness the feast in Jerusalem but Paul went anyways .

And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

So according to you the others believers said to him not go to by Holy Spirit but by some other Spirit ? Didn't know you can be a belivers and have "other" Spirit inside of you or that Spirit of God is contradicting itself.

HS command was - don't go
Paul went
end of story , he did not do according to the Spirit.
He did not do many things according to what he should do confessing it many times

Romans 7
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that.

first .. it says they tried in the spirit to convince him not to go .. it doesn't say the spirit said not to go . the lord had already told him personally what his will was

secondly pleeeease scroll back and see how often we have to address your romans 7 reference . its embarrassingly out of context . dont mean to sound offensive but it just is what it is .

Chinchilla · Jul 1, 2018

Alithis said:
first .. it says they tried in the spirit to convince him not to go .. it doesn't say the spirit said not to go . the lord had already told him personally what his will was

secondly pleeeease scroll back and see how often we have to address your romans 7 reference . its embarrassingly out of context . dont mean to sound offensive but it just is what it is .

Well I gues u are right . Since we are sealed with Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:8-9 ) and nobody is able to take us out of God's hand (John 10:28-30) then either God lied or you consider yourself to be God and decide to take yourself out of your own hand.

Yea it does not make sense because your presuppositions do not make sense and you twist Scriptures .

Also you addresing my romans 7 reference does not make it true because you still twist it . It's not like I haven't seen it it's just i don't agree with it and you repeating it does not make it more true for me .

Also you said
"so because we truly believe Jesus and all he has done we then begin to DO as he says . if we don't ,we are not believers at all "

that is not true . You can be saved and decide not to do anything for LORD not even love him or worship him because salvation is free. It's either by grace or by works these two are contradicting themselfes and you try to put them both together.

Paul said it clearly in Romans 11:6 and also Romans 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What you teach is LORDship salvation and is not biblical . It goes like " you need to make Jesus your LORD and master of your life if you didn't then you weren't saved in first place " .

You can stay with LORDship salvation and then say LORD LORD like people in Matthew 7:22-24 or you can get gift of eternal life by believing in Christ for free. Jesus clearly said that MANY will say on that day LORD LORD just like you say it now and there will be I who accepted the atonement that it was finished and was enought as free gift juding you at the White Throne Judgement in the minority of saved people .

1stcenturylady · Jul 1, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Well I gues u are right . Since we are sealed with Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:8-9 ) and nobody is able to take us out of God's hand (John 10:28-30) then either God lied or you consider yourself to be God and decide to take yourself out of your own hand.

Yea it does not make sense because your presuppositions do not make sense and you twist Scriptures .

Also you addresing my romans 7 reference does not make it true because you still twist it . It's not like I haven't seen it it's just i don't agree with it and you repeating it does not make it more true for me .

Also you said
"so because we truly believe Jesus and all he has done we then begin to DO as he says . if we don't ,we are not believers at all "

that is not true . You can be saved and decide not to do anything for LORD not even love him or worship him because salvation is free. It's either by grace or by works these two are contradicting themselfes and you try to put them both together.

Paul said it clearly in Romans 11:6 and also Romans 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What you teach is LORDship salvation and is not biblical . It goes like " you need to make Jesus your LORD and master of your life if you didn't then you weren't saved in first place " .

You can stay with LORDship salvation and then say LORD LORD like people in Matthew 7:22-24 or you can get gift of eternal life by believing in Christ for free. Jesus clearly said that MANY will say on that day LORD LORD just like you say it now and there will be I who accepted the atonement that it was finished and was enought as free gift juding you at the White Throne Judgement in the minority of saved people .

Well, let me ask you. Do you understand that there is a difference between how the Jews who studied the law, lived before Christ entered their heart, and then after? Can you relate at all to the power of God living in you.

Look at Peter who studied under Jesus for three years, yet denied Christ. Why? Because he had no power in his flesh. But then Jesus blew the Holy Spirit into him in John 20, and he became a new creature empowered by the Spirit and freedom from his weak sin nature. That is what the Law could not do - kill the sin nature. And THAT is what Romans 7 is trying to show you. The powerlessness of our flesh, who cannot be righteous by keeping the law in our sinful flesh. And that is what the next chapter is about. FREEDOM from our sinful flesh. Jesus didn't just cover our sin like the blood of bulls and goats - He took away our sin, and the sin nature that produced sin. The one thing He didn't take away was our will. But with a new nature, our will wants to do good, and it is now no more struggle as Romans 7 speaks of BEFORE Christ.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 1, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I wrote about that earlier. However, it was not added later, but deleted; the same way the rest of 1 John 5:7 which those same scholars say was added, was actually deleted. Otherwise, it couldn't have been quoted in 250 A.D.

You're quoting that pesky denomination again, and believing it. Let's see; is Romans 7:14-23 about the struggles of a Christian?

Just curious, isn't working to produce fruit of repentance a contradiction to your other statements? Good! There's hope for you yet.

(I hope you know I love you, brother!)

As long as we know the distinction between justification and sanctification. We know that we are justified because of the finished work of Christ and not through any performance by us.

But...the Scripture says, "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." There is no doubt that God requires us to live a holy life. Justification, or in other words, being converted to Christ is just the initial doorway. We have to go on from there to develop a sanctified life in order to stay within God's plan and purpose for our lives.

Because God has given His promise that when we accept Christ we are fully justified and freed from condemnation and will go to heaven and not to hell, He will never break that promise, even if our performance afterward leaves a lot to be desired. If you read the places where an oath was given before the Lord, it was never broken. Joshua made an oath to Rahab and her family and he kept it. He made an oath to the Gibeonites, even through they tricked him into making it, and he kept it regardless because it was an oath before the Lord. Saul broke the oath later on by killing the Gibeonites, and he suffered extreme punishment from God because of it. In Hebrews God made an oath concerning our justification in Christ. He swore by Himself because there was no one greater than him to form the basis of the oath. Because He swore by Himself that all those who receive Christ are totally justified and save and the oath will never be broken, we who have received Christ have absolute eternal security, regardless of how we perform as Christians subsequently.

I contend that a truly converted Christian will want to live a sanctified life. He or she will want God's best for life and will be totally willing to give of his or her best for Him. If not, then there is the question of whether the person's commitment to Christ was real and genuine, or whether he or she has just "got religion" and instead of being filled with the Holy Spirit, is motivated by a religious spirit instead. In that case, I would doubt that such a person to truly justified and saved, and is still dead in their sins, no matter how super spiritual or religious they may appear to be.

1stcenturylady · Jul 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
As long as we know the distinction between justification and sanctification. We know that we are justified because of the finished work of Christ and not through any performance by us.

But...the Scripture says, "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." There is no doubt that God requires us to live a holy life. Justification, or in other words, being converted to Christ is just the initial doorway. We have to go on from there to develop a sanctified life in order to stay within God's plan and purpose for our lives.

Because God has given His promise that when we accept Christ we are fully justified and freed from condemnation and will go to heaven and not to hell, He will never break that promise, even if our performance afterward leaves a lot to be desired. If you read the places where an oath was given before the Lord, it was never broken. Joshua made an oath to Rahab and her family and he kept it. He made an oath to the Gibeonites, even through they tricked him into making it, and he kept it regardless because it was an oath before the Lord. Saul broke the oath later on by killing the Gibeonites, and he suffered extreme punishment from God because of it. In Hebrews God made an oath concerning our justification in Christ. He swore by Himself because there was no one greater than him to form the basis of the oath. Because He swore by Himself that all those who receive Christ are totally justified and save and the oath will never be broken, we who have received Christ have absolute eternal security, regardless of how we perform as Christians subsequently.

I contend that a truly converted Christian will want to live a sanctified life. He or she will want God's best for life and will be totally willing to give of his or her best for Him. If not, then there is the question of whether the person's commitment to Christ was real and genuine, or whether he or she has just "got religion" and instead of being filled with the Holy Spirit, is motivated by a religious spirit instead. In that case, I would doubt that such a person to truly justified and saved, and is still dead in their sins, no matter how super spiritual or religious they may appear to be.

I always believed there was a difference in timing between justification and sanctification. But I kept coming across scriptures that put a giant hole in that denominational definition. So, I repented. Now I'm going to go with the written word of God, over what our mind can't handle. "God is not a man that He should lie." When we can't understand something hard to grasp, our mind will make something up anyway. We never want to wait, we would rather accept the lie we make up, than take God at His Word when we don't understand it fully at the time. It is like, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." So why wait on God for the best, when our carnal mind will always come up with something on the spot. But that habit has lead to thousands of falsities in doctrines to this very day. Honor to God as we refuse to jump the gun, allows God to give us the wisdom and understanding we waited for. This is why David meditated on God's words day and night. Psalms 77:6. And God called Him the apple of His eye.

Justification and sanctification are both accomplished together. And suddenly. One looks back, and the other looks forward, but both from the same moment in time. It is the moment we surrender to the cleansing power of Jesus and His Lordship, and He in turn gives us the Holy Spirit to move forward, making us dead to committing present and future sins of lawlessness, even to the point of taking away our sin nature - we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if we have the Spirit of God, and if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Our justification comes by faith alone. We don't have to be holy already before coming to Christ. Jesus said, He isn't coming for the righteous (in their own mind), but for sinners (as no one is righteous without Christ, so they lie to themselves. 1 John 1:8). And He cleanses us from all sin and unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9. (BTW, 1 John 1:8 is not a stand alone verse. It must be understood in context with verse 9 to become a Christian. Otherwise, the rest of Scripture is seen through the lens of that false teaching - that we are always sinners. Those standing on 1 John 1:8 will never understand 1 John 3:5-9 They don't understand the power of the blood of Jesus) We go from death to life. And guess what? We are no longer sinners, but saints, children of God, with His seed in us (sanctification). He died while we were YET sinners, meaning our being a sinner is in the past, and not an ongoing dilemma. Romans 6 tells us our sinful self was nailed to that cross with Christ, and we are no longer SINNERS. We are free from Adam's curse - the inheritance of the sin nature.

Romans 6:5-7
"For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

And that is where sanctification comes in immediately.

verse 8, "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more.

Just as we shared in His crucifixion (justification) where our past sins were nailed to the cross (2 Peter 1:9), we also share in His resurrection (sanctification).

When talking about the Christian and sanctification, sanctification is always past tense. It is a done deal. We are sealed. We are "set apart." But, look at the man who sins willfully AFTER having been sanctified. Here is a well known verse, but did you ever notice the tense of sanctification? It is past tense.

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now the dilemma of OSAS. Well, you can see by this verse you can certainly use willpower and rebel against God. My question is, who would want to when we are now free from sin, and righteousness is now the norm and comes naturally to our new nature. Living in that norm assures us of salvation. 1 John 3:21. It then takes a lot of work to go against your new nature and return as a dog to his own vomit. The false doctrines have it backwards. It is not salvation by works, because obeying our new nature is easy. But it takes real work to go against our new nature and return to perdition. It no longer comes naturally.

Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Don't be surprised if you see this in my new book, as He just gave me this understanding while I began to respond.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 1, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I always believed there was a difference in timing between justification and sanctification. But I kept coming across scriptures that put a giant hole in that denominational definition. So, I repented. Now I'm going to go with the written word of God, over what our mind can't handle. "God is not a man that He should lie." When we can't understand something hard to grasp, our mind will make something up anyway. We never want to wait, we would rather accept the lie we make up, than take God at His Word when we don't understand it fully at the time. It is like, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." So why wait on God for the best, when our carnal mind will always come up with something on the spot. But that habit has lead to thousands of falsities in doctrines to this very day. Honor to God as we refuse to jump the gun, allows God to give us the wisdom and understanding we waited for. This is why David meditated on God's words day and night. Psalms 77:6. And God called Him the apple of His eye.

Justification and sanctification are both accomplished together. And suddenly. One looks back, and the other looks forward, but both from the same moment in time. It is the moment we surrender to the cleansing power of Jesus and His Lordship, and He in turn gives us the Holy Spirit to move forward, making us dead to committing present and future sins of lawlessness, even to the point of taking away our sin nature - we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if we have the Spirit of God, and if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Our justification comes by faith alone. We don't have to be holy already before coming to Christ. Jesus said, He isn't coming for the righteous (in their own mind), but for sinners (as no one is righteous without Christ, so they lie to themselves. 1 John 1:8). And He cleanses us from all sin and unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9. (BTW, 1 John 1:8 is not a stand alone verse. It must be understood in context with verse 9 to become a Christian. Otherwise, the rest of Scripture is seen through the lens of that false teaching - that we are always sinners. Those standing on 1 John 1:8 will never understand 1 John 3:5-9 They don't understand the power of the blood of Jesus) We go from death to life. And guess what? We are no longer sinners, but saints, children of God, with His seed in us (sanctification). He died while we were YET sinners, meaning our being a sinner is in the past, and not an ongoing dilemma. Romans 6 tells us our sinful self was nailed to that cross with Christ, and we are no longer SINNERS. We are free from Adam's curse - the inheritance of the sin nature.

Romans 6:5-7
"For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

And that is where sanctification comes in immediately.

verse 8, "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more.

Just as we shared in His crucifixion (justification) where our past sins were nailed to the cross (2 Peter 1:9), we also share in His resurrection (sanctification).

When talking about the Christian and sanctification, sanctification is always past tense. It is a done deal. We are sealed. We are "set apart." But, look at the man who sins willfully AFTER having been sanctified. Here is a well known verse, but did you ever notice the tense of sanctification? It is past tense.

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now the dilemma of OSAS. Well, you can see by this verse you can certainly use willpower and rebel against God. My question is, who would want to when we are now free from sin, and righteousness is now the norm and comes naturally to our new nature. Living in that norm assures us of salvation. 1 John 3:21. It then takes a lot of work to go against your new nature and return as a dog to his own vomit. The false doctrines have it backwards. It is not salvation by works, because obeying our new nature is easy. But it takes real work to go against our new nature and return to perdition. It no longer comes naturally.

Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Don't be surprised if you see this in my new book, as He just gave me this understanding while I began to respond.

It is justification that is in the past tense. Just as Jesus was crucified and resurrected at definite points in human history, so we received Christ and were immediately justified at a point in history as well. But for us that is past history, and our justification will never be recinded. It is a done deal.

But sanctification is a moment by moment development through our lives. Just as there was a moment when we received Christ, there is a series of moments as I type this comment. If we are growing in grace, today's moments should be better than yesterday's. Each moment, we are trusting in the work of the Holy Spirit within us to continue us, moment by moment along the path of righteousness and sanctification until the moment we pass from life into the presence of Christ.

Because we can never be perfect, there will be moments when we encounter temptation,but temptation is not sin. It is only when we succumb to the temptation and fall into sin that we actually sin. But as Jesus said in His moments in the garden of Gethsemone, "Not my will but yours be done", in the moment of our temptation, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can say, "Not my will but yours be done", in relation the temptation. That activates the Holy Spirit within us to give the way of escape so we can bear the temptation without falling into sin. The better we are able to do that, the better we grow and develop in our sanctification until that moment when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye to have the same glorified body as Jesus has right now.

1stcenturylady · Jul 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
It is justification that is in the past tense.

I agree. It is justification of all sins from the past. You may disagree. And I see it linked with the crucifixion. You've added the resurrection to justification as well. I don't. Santification is being set apart for holiness. And is at the same time period as our crucifixion of the flesh. It is the starting point. We've been set apart (past tense).

Oscarr said:
But sanctification is a moment by moment development through our lives. Just as there was a moment when we received Christ, there is a series of moments as I type this comment. If we are growing in grace, today's moments should be better than yesterday's. Each moment, we are trusting in the work of the Holy Spirit within us to continue us, moment by moment along the path of righteousness and sanctification until the moment we pass from life into the presence of Christ.

What you are describing is Glorification which is the ongoing work. Romans 8:16-17 and 28-30. (Wow, thank you Lord! He just gave me that as the word, "glorified," was spoken to me. I had to do a word search to find the scriptures related to the rhema.)

Praise God! Another chapter for my book. Oscar, He answered my prayer from today, as I took communion and asked to be made a sponge that soaked up what God means in His Word. I wouldn't know anything, if He didn't speak to me and teach me.

Oscarr said:
Because we can never be perfect,

Careful. Jesus wouldn't tell us do be perfect, if He couldn't accomplish that in us in our walk on earth.

Oscarr said:
there will be moments when we encounter temptation,but temptation is not sin.

We are on the same page on that one

continued on next page...

1stcenturylady · Jul 1, 2018

continued...

Oscarr said:
It is only when we succumb to the temptation and fall into sin that we actually sin. But as Jesus said in His moments in the garden of Gethsemone, "Not my will but yours be done", in the moment of our temptation, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can say, "Not my will but yours be done", in relation the temptation. That activates the Holy Spirit within us to give the way of escape so we can bear the temptation without falling into sin.

Again, on the same page.

Oscarr said:
The better we are able to do that, the better we grow and develop in our sanctification until that moment when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye to have the same glorified body as Jesus has right now.

Glorification, not sanctification! Praise God! I love it when by His Spirit he teaches me something new. I'm honored that you are the first to receive it.

Just think on these things.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jul 1, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
continued...

Again, on the same page.

Glorification, not sanctification! Praise God! I love it when by His Spirit he teaches me something new. I'm honored that you are the first to receive it.

Just think on these things.

Francis Schaeffer is a very good source for a good, solid, realistic view of our Personal-Infinite God and what He has done in history. I am reading his book on True Spirituality at present and it is very instructive and eye-opening.

1stcenturylady · Jul 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
The point is that our release from condemnation is not related to our performance as Christians. That is upon the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection and it is obtained by faith only.

Where the Reformed position is absolutely wrong and also dangerous, IMO, is that once we have been cleansed of all our past sin, and the sin nature has been replaced by the power of Jesus' blood and we are now children of God who cannot sin willfully, (my belief), they believe the defeated doctrine of we are still in the flesh, and will always keep struggling, most quoting Romans 7:14-23 that is actually about those still under the law BEFORE Christ. But where it is dangerous is the hyper Reformationists who believe our past, present and future sins are already cleansed automatically while we keep committing them. :doh:

God forbid that we commit them at all now that He has given us His Spirit to walk in, and taken away the desire to willfully sin.

Just so you know, I do not believe in a works of the law based religion.

You said: "Some legalistic folk who insist on performance based Christianity as a condition for salvation, confuse justification with sanctification. These folk unwittingly, through ignorance, put those who believe their teaching under a curse and stop them short of being truly born again, keeping them still dead in their sins by rejecting the finished work of Christ in favour of trying to keep the Law in order to be justified."

I believe in acting on the instincts of our completely new nature, obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit, which replaced the law, and is not a work of the law, but of the Spirit.

1stcenturylady · Jul 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
Francis Schaeffer is a very good source for a good, solid, realistic view of our Personal-Infinite God and what He has done in history. I am reading his book on True Spirituality at present and it is very instructive and eye-opening.

I'm reading the book, I think you recommended, on the 2000 years of the Charismatic...somethingorother. Can't remember the exact title, and don't want to go pick it up off my bed. It is on the Charismatic outpouring since the 1st century.

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