Why worship Mary?

Dont want no part of this. Wont be joining Catholicism or Protestantism. No one would listen to my protesting anyway, so i wipe my feet and walk away.

Kenny'sID said:

Also, and I will direct this at no on in particular as it's only to make a point, and not to goad, but I see no one has explained how it is OK to bow to Mary when the Bible is very specific on the issue.

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I'm going to give you one of the least sublime reason's it's ok.

Before Christ the fallen angels were not understood for what they were to the Israelites or the surrounding nations. The fallen spirits were not distinguished from gods and even the God of Abraham was understood to be a God of a particular locality. The idolatry of the OT was a deception grounded in the concept of nations and gods restricted by localities. This god is the god of this land and people and another god is this land and people. They had particular powers according to their roles in the mythology of the people. These are fallen angels posing as gods using their preternatural powers that God created them with to work signs for belief and worship.

Psalm 96:5
For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens.


The powers of nature were personified and conceived as images of other kinds of creatures and the images were carved to give the god location in a temple or a house or anyplace the rituals were performed in the name of the god.The fallen angels used their preternatural powers to make the worshipers believe the God truly was located in the image. The demons used the peoples fear of the powers of nature to incite worship and the visible signs were the graven image so the god of the land could show it's location in the land.This is how the fallen angels deceived people into worshiping them in the OT. That deception was known and forbidden but the nature of the god's were not well known and that it was deception of evil spirits was unknown among other the nations.

The Incarnation of God brought to man a personal relationship with the spiritual realm. Humanity was lifted up in Christ and the deception of the fallen angels that was hidden to the Jews was exposed and made powerless relative to Christ's Church. That former deception is no longer effective on Christians and would be eventually ineffective to deceive any nation in time. Protestants accusations of idolatry that no longer works only serves the demons as it is a powerful obstacle to Christian unity. The demons have much more sublime deceptions for us these days. The idols in our hearts that replace God are their domain now for receiving worship. These days the power of fertility is an idol widely worshiped and growing in the forms of contraception, abortion, gay marriage and gender fluidity among others.The meaning of the human body is a distortion in the minds of most these days.

The Catholic church has lived this history and understands the nature of deception of evil spirits. She also understands the difference between acts of worship due to God and acts of petition and veneration given to Our Blessed Mother and to other members of the Body of Christ who have triumphed over evil in this world. She is well equipped to recognize idolatry and condemn it long before it becomes a problem. It's a shame that the separated brethren aren't willing to access the riches that belong to the community that gathered around Jesus since the beginning. That community is Holy and Triumphant a bride already made spotless in heaven waiting for the rest of the brethren who carry the testimony of Jesus to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

Sola Scriptura and prejudice against the Church prevents Protestant Christians from proceeding with the Holy Spirit in time and history and so their feet are stuck in the muddy ground of the past as a consequence. Clinging to faith that is contingent on error prevents growth in the Truth and the knowledge that the error perceived doesn't exist.

W2L said:

Dont want no part of this. Wont be joining Catholicism or Protestantism. No one would listen to my protesting anyway, so i wipe my feet and walk away.

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So a one man sect with your own doctrine?
That's the alternative. Luther deplored it.
" as many doctrines as heads" he said.
And if you reject all others... the question is by what authority?

At the heart of all this is authority ( e.g. to decide what scripture means )

Mountainmike said:

So a one man sect with your own doctrine?
That's the alternative. Luther deplored it.
" as many doctrines as heads" he said.
And if you reject all others... the question is by what authority?

At the heart of all this is authority ( e.g. to decide what scripture means )

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Im not concerned with what Luther says. I follow the Lord and His apostles. Their words lead me to simplicity.

W2L said:

Im not concerned with what Luther says. I follow the Lord and His apostles. Their words lead me to simplicity.

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You should be concerned.

Because whatever Luther's own view of doctrine is irrelevant - he rightly observed that individuals trying to interpret scripture on their own, come to wholly different interpretations of it, indeed as many doctrines as heads.

So since they all believe in different things, and many of those issues are salvation reaplater we can conclude by simple logic at most only one can be right, the rest are wrong.

So by what authority do you think you are right? And therefore others wrong? And the answer cannot be scripture or spirit, since all others will claim the same.

That single question is what separates Christians.
By what authority?

Eloy Craft said:

The idolatry of the OT was a deception grounded in the concept of nations and gods restricted by localities.

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Let me stop you right there...are you saying the second commandment holds no water now?

That's one long and I'm afraid twisty/stretchy post, still, trying to give it benefit of the doubt, and I'm working on it, but need to take it a little at a time.

Mountainmike said:

So by what authority do you think you are right?

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Mountainmike said:

That single question is what separates Christians.
By what authority?

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Two questions:

What authority ignores the second commandment and says it is ok to bow down to graven images?

Also, why would anyone consider such a person/group, an authority at all if they go against clear scripture?

Lets close this thread since the premise poisoned the well at the start. I hope we can discuss our differences in a respectful manner without accusing the other side of idolatry. Let's have a discussion and not a debate so each side understands what is being said and not build strawman to burn. Then debate what the each side is actually saying. Not sure that is possible but it's a dream.

God Bless

After Sunday Church service, me and my wife invited a husband and wife friends of ours to breakfast. We argued back and forth in our discussion, as to why people call upon the name of Mary or even Saints in times of need.

After much dialogue between me and our guests, we all mutually came to the conclusion that calling upon Mary or the Saints, was actually an appeal to the Lord Jesus directly, in the hope that he can dispense his grace upon us, as he did to Mary and the Saints, so that we too can better serve his Greater Will.

We also came to agreement that Mary and the Saints in themselves, had no Commision of Power within the realm of the living to dispense aid to the believers in Christ Jesus.

We cited scripture to assertain this fact, that once a Saint or Mary for that matter had biologically died to be with the Lord, then their commission (watch) over the flock of Christ, had ended and their power to bind on earth that will be bound in heaven, and whatever they loosened on earth that will be loosened in heaven had also come to a closure, because they are no longer in the world.

Apostle Paul quiet eloquentally highlights that his services to the flock as a Saint would end after he is no longer in the body.

Here are the versus as a testimony to why Mary and the Saints no longer have the power to bind on earth that will be bound on heaven.......

21For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better. 22But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. 23I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.

25Knowing this, I am convinced that I will remain alive so I can continue to help all of you grow and experience the joy of your faith. 26And when I come to you again, you will have even more reason to take pride in Christ Jesus because of what he is doing through me. (Phillippians 1:21-26)

For those brothers and sisters who venerate Mary or the Saints, it is perfectly fine to do so, so long as you understand that you are appealing to Jesus and not to Mary and the Saints directly.

Kenny'sID said:

Let me stop you right there...are you saying the second commandment holds no water now?

That's one long and I'm afraid twisty/stretchy post, still, trying to give it benefit of the doubt, and I'm working on it, but need to take it a little at a time.

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The short of it is that diabolical deception has had to take on a more sublime form since their defeat on the cross. Christ's followers are not easily deceived. Idolatry is very much a sin widely committed but not because we are being tricked to worship them as gods. People were committing idolatry by worshiping the powers of nature thinking they were worshiping gods, now people are committing idolatry because they are worshiping the powers of nature thinking it is their salvation. Both are deceptions to cause people to replace God with an idol. In the OT the idol was in the heart and made visible in a graven image. Today the idols are not made visible but the same demons are deceiving people to worship the same powers.

Eloy Craft said:

The short of it is that diabolical deception has had to take on a more sublime form since their defeat on the cross. Christ's followers are not easily deceived. Idolatry is very much a sin widely committed but not because we are being tricked to worship them as gods. People were committing idolatry by worshiping the powers of nature thinking they were worshiping gods, now people are committing idolatry because they are worshiping the powers of nature thinking it is their salvation. Both are deceptions to cause people to replace God with an idol. In the OT the idol was in the heart and made visible in a graven image. Today the idols are not made visible but the same demons are deceiving people to worship the same powers.

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That is something that one notices about Paganism, universally. They all worship aspects of nature as seperate gods and goddesses. Rain, sun, snow, oceans, greenery. This is perhaps why Jonah pointed out to the sailors making sacrifices to their gods, "I am a Hebrew, and I worship the God of Heaven, who made the earth and the sea". And intuitively, instinctively, these men knew who and what he was talking about. Pretty cool.

Have also noticed that Catholic missionaries, in translating God into local languages, generally instead of trying to use the name of the nearest-equivalent deity will often translate or create a new title, which often literally means "King / Chief / Lord of / in Heaven". Nearest equivalent gods can often have multiple wives, consorts, ride elephants, demand prisoners of war as sacrificial victims, or be known to eat the sun.

Gracia Singh said:

That is something that one notices about Paganism, universally. They all worship aspects of nature as seperate gods and goddesses. Rain, sun, snow, oceans, greenery. This is perhaps why Jonah pointed out to the sailors making sacrifices to their gods, "I am a Hebrew, and I worship the God of Heaven, who made the earth and the sea". And intuitively, instinctively, these men knew who and what he was talking about. Pretty cool.

Have also noticed that Catholic missionaries, in translating God into local languages, generally instead of trying to use the name of the nearest-equivalent deity will often translate or create a new title, which often literally means "King / Chief / Lord of / in Heaven". Nearest equivalent gods can often have multiple wives, consorts, ride elephants, demand prisoners of war as sacrificial victims, or be known to eat the sun.

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It's like their search for the highest power or greatest power is really a search for God. I think the power of fertility was mistaken for the creative power of God and IMO that mistaken identity was made first by Eve. That false reality colored the maternal environment of Cain and his line begins the ancient matriarchy that opposes God.

They sure didn't waste much time getting Jonah off their boat. I see your point. The sailors had no issue with Jonah's God having the power to control the sea.

Hmmm. If the local deity doesn't have enough inherent truth to point to Christ the missionaries put some in themselves. I guess as long as the converts don't mind. Myth usually has a measure of truth and that can be pointed to it's true object. Paul attempted to do that at the shrine of the unknown God. It didn't initiate a mass conversion but there were people converted. There is one who is canonized....can't remember his name. Well, may the Lord Bless you in every way.

I have many Catholic friends and none worship Mary. I guess it looks that way but they dont.

I suggest you read Revelation 12:1 and decide who is the woman being referred to.

jxmoyo said:

I suggest you read Revelation 12:1 and decide who is the woman being referred to.

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That's Mary body and soul in heaven.