Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

SonOfZion said:

Chinchilla said

Plus if Jesus comes back with His saints He must have taken them up first right.

No, the saints that He returns with, are those that have already Died


1 Thessalonians 5:14
For if we believe that YESHUA died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in YESHUA will Elohim bring with Him.

15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Adonai, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Adonai shall not go before them which are asleep.


And to think that others upvoted this clear misunderstanding of what is so easy to refute.


Revelation 1:7
Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:43
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Adonai cometh as a thief in the night.


YESHUA's Second Coming is as a thief is upon those who are not watching, those that watch, escape and will be alive and remain on A Future YOM TERUAH when He shall return.

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How do you know the Day of his comming that it will be on Yom Teruah since Jesus said nobody knows when ? Matthew 24:36

Chinchilla said:

How do you know the Day of his comming that it will be on Yom Teruah since Jesus said nobody knows when ? Matthew 24:36

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Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only. Matthew 24:35-36

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My Words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:31-32

How is it? that there are still so many that attempt to use these verses to mean anything other than what YESHUA said - The day and hour that heaven and earth will pass away, not known - Which occurs at the end of the Day of YHWH, The 1000 year reign of the King of kings on the earth.

His Coming as a thief is upon those who are not watching, Haven't a clue what they should be watching out for

SonOfZion said:

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only. Matthew 24:35-36

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My Words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:31-32

How is it? that there are still so many that attempt to use these verses to mean anything other than what YESHUA said - The day and hour that heaven and earth will pass away, not known - Which occurs at the end of the Day of YHWH, The 1000 year reign of the King of kings on the earth.

His Coming as a thief is upon those who are not watching, Haven't a clue what they should be watching out for

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You just contradicted yourself saying that it occurs at end of 1000 regin , that would mean you know the day again .

BABerean2 said:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(If you want to "understand" this verse, read John 10:22.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

You might notice that the exact same words are found in the second verse of each Gospel, clearly showing that they are parallel accounts.

Matthew's Gospel was written to a Jewish audience which celebrated Hanukkah each year and would fully "understand" the events of 167 BC. See John 10:22.

Luke's Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience who may not "understand" the fact that Antiochus Epiphanes attacked the city, killing thousands of Jews, and stopped the temple sacrifices during 167 BC. The city would also be attacked and the temple sacrifices would be stopped again during 70 AD. See Luke 19:41-44.

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BaB2, if you were to cite the Antiochus desecration of the temple as the template for what the abomination of desolation will be in the end times, by the beast and false prophet - placing the image of the beast in the temple - then fine. But not for what the Romans did in 70 AD.

SonOfZion said:

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only. Matthew 24:35-36

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My Words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:31-32

How is it? that there are still so many that attempt to use these verses to mean anything other than what YESHUA said - The day and hour that heaven and earth will pass away, not known - Which occurs at the end of the Day of YHWH, The 1000 year reign of the King of kings on the earth.

His Coming as a thief is upon those who are not watching, Haven't a clue what they should be watching out for

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Jesus was emphasizing that his words are more solid than the existence of heaven and earth - regarding the things he was saying. We should hold his words in that regard.

Coming as a thief in the night is a saying, used several times, to indicate the events will be unexpected by most, suddenly. So as, they will be caught unprepared. But the companion message is Christians should be aware of the circumstances. Not in darkness.

The rapture is one event. The beginning of the Day of the Lord, another event.
The peeling back of the stars to reveal Jesus before the throne of God, another event.

Chinchilla said:

You just contradicted yourself saying that it occurs at end of 1000 regin , that would mean you know the day again .

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No, no contradiction

Just more obfuscation on your part as to what these verses say

YESHUA said it not me, I choose to believe Him

He said that the Day Heaven and Earth pass away can not be known


Will those reigning with Him in the millennium know the day that this will occur - Not sure if they will or not (will not matter) but the wicked won't for sure, those that satan deceives after the thousand years are expired when he is let loose for a season, deceive the nations again. Revelation 20:7

Thousand years expire, satan is let out, deceives for a season. How long is that?


Do you think that YESHUA knows now the day and hour that heaven and earth will pass away?


He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Peter was grieved because He said unto him the third time, Lovest thou Me? And he said unto Him, Adonai, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. YESHUA saith unto him, Feed My sheep. John 21:17

Start video at 1:04:25 for the rapture part .

SonOfZion said:

No, no contradiction

Just more obfuscation on your part as to what these verses say

YESHUA said it not me, I choose to believe Him

He said that the Day Heaven and Earth pass away can not be known


Will those reigning with Him in the millennium know the day that this will occur - Not sure if they will or not (will not matter) but the wicked won't for sure, those that satan deceives after the thousand years are expired when he is let loose for a season, deceive the nations again. Revelation 20:7

Thousand years expire, satan is let out, deceives for a season. How long is that?


Do you think that YESHUA knows now the day and hour that heaven and earth will pass away?


He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Peter was grieved because He said unto him the third time, Lovest thou Me? And he said unto Him, Adonai, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. YESHUA saith unto him, Feed My sheep. John 21:17

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No you said it happens after 1000 years regin , that means after 1000 * 360 days so after 36000 days which means you know the day contradicting Scriptures .

On top of that Satan is loosen from his prison for a little season after 1000 year regin so that in Matthew is not happening on 360 000'th day but somewhere after these days and we don't know when because we don't know how long is the little season .

Revelation 20

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Satan will still have some time after the 1000 year regin , you can't say that heaven and earth pass away on 360 000th day because it's not true .

Chinchilla said:

No you said it happens after 1000 years regin , that means after 1000 * 360 days so after 36000 days which means you know the day contradicting Scriptures .

On top of that Satan is loosen from his prison for a little season after 1000 year regin so that in Matthew is not happening on 360 000'th day but somewhere after these days and we don't know when because we don't know how long is the little season .

Revelation 20

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Satan will still have some time after the 1000 year regin , you can't say that heaven and earth pass away on 360 000th day because it's not true .

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Semantics, I just said the same thing that you repeated - Good Job Max, very smart of you

1000 years, season? the end.

Where did you now say anything differently than was said.

Because earlier only the 1000 years was mentioned and not the season following

What have you refuted?

Nothing


The question Here is not whether you can know the day and hour of heaven and earth passing away, but the Second Coming that is being considered.

no one knows how long the season will last, thus no one knows when heaven and earth will pass away

SonOfZion said:

Semantics, I just said the same thing that you repeated - Good Job Max, very smart of you

1000 years, season? the end.

Where did you now say anything differently than was said.

Because earlier only the 1000 years was mentioned and not the season following

What have you refuted?

Nothing

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Same as you did not refute my mystery argument .

Chinchilla said:

Same as you did not refute my mystery argument .

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As it is still a mystery to me, what is your argument - would you mind repeating it, I didn't watch the video, is your mystery argument there?

If this is your mystery argument, It wasn't a mystery to the Thessalonians!

And Elohim said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons (Moedim), and for days, and years: Genesis 1:14

Moedim - YHWH's Appointed Times - Seasons

LXX Greek Septuagint - Genesis 1:14 Seasons (kairos)

But of the times and the seasons (kairos) , brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1 Thessalonians 5:1

He appointed the moon for seasons (Moedim): the sun knoweth his going down. Psalms 104:19

Seems the Thessalonians had been taught about YHWH's appointed Times (Moedim/Kairos), and they knew what was meant by different Hebrew idioms.
along with knowing the Greek language.

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Revelation 3:3

The Living In Jerusalem Isaiah 4:3 at the Hour of His Second Coming shall be Saying as He returns: " Baruch haba b'Shem YHWH " Matthew 23:39 ~ Adonai YESHUA Mashiach (And those having been accounted worthy to escape the hour of trial in the place prepared for them, unless they were purged in the wilderness. Exodus 19:4 ~ Revelation 12:14 On Eagles' wings Ezekiel 20:33-49

He will return on one of His Appointed Times, there are Seven of them. Leviticus 23:1-2 .....These are my set Feasts/מֹועֲדָֽי Moeday (Appointments)

Spring Time Feasts (Filled to the full in His first Coming)

1) Passover - Keep this Day in Remembrance of Him. Luke 22:19, 1 Corinthians 11:24-25

2) Unleavened Bread - "Let us keep the feast" 1 Corinthians 5:8

3) FirstFruits - Day One counting the Omer. Acts of the Apostles 20:7 Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων - ***

4) Shavuot - Pentecost. Acts of the Apostles 2:1

Fall Time Feasts

5) YOM TERUAH - Day of Shouting (Only appointed time that the day can not be set in advance)

6) Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement/Judgement - sheep and goat nations

7) Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles (Season of our Joy) YESHUA was born on day one of Sukkot, circumcised on the eighth day, literally ~ Shemini Atzeret, a separate day from Sukkot but connected to YAH's Appointed Time.


Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, YHWH of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 2:3
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, to the house of the Elohim of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the TORAH, and The Word of YHWH from Jerusalem.

If you were in the Thessalonian Congregation, or followed His Appointed times, you would have already known these things.

Acts of the Apostles 20:7 Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων - ***

Luke 24:1 τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων " The(now) upon first of the Sabbath

First-fruits (The Day YESHUA Rose from the Grave) - Also It is Day 1 of the Counting of the Omer/The Feast of Weeks, A Holy Convocation

Ev - In - Conjunction de - upon - Preposition - ho - the - Mia - First - Sabbaton

In upon the First of the Sabbath Acts of the Apostles 20:7 - Feast of weeks, First Sabbath. Leviticus 23:9 - Leviticus 23:15

Acts of the Apostles 20:16 Wherein Paul hoped to be in Jerusalem by Pentecost. Leviticus 23:16 Count Seven Sabbaths - + 1 Day Leviticus 23:21 Forever

The First Sabbath of the Counting of the Omer, The Feast of Weeks Acts 20:7

Which Ends at Pentecost, and Paul desires to be in Jerusalem for it Acts 20:16

Douggg said:

BaB2, if you were cite the Antiochus desecration of the temple as the template for what the abomination of desolation will be in the end times, by the beast and false prophet - placing the image of the beast in the temple - then fine. But not for what the Romans did in 70 AD.

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Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

We find the exact same words about fleeing from Judea to the mountains in both Gospel accounts above.

Therefore, we know Jesus was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 24:15.
You will "understand" His reference to the abomination of desolation, if you read John 10:22.

This is confirmed by Luke 19:41-44.

Almost all Bible scholars agree that part of Luke 21:24 is speaking about 70 AD.
Even John Nelson Darby admitted this fact.

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BABerean2 said:

Almost all Bible scholars agree that part of Luke 21:24 is speaking about 70 AD.
Even John Nelson Darby admitted this fact.

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24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The part in blue began with the 70 ad destruction of the temple, described in Luke 21:20-21, and has lasted 2000 years. With the gentiles controlling Jerusalem during that time.

The times of the gentiles controlling Jerusalem ended in 1967. We are in that generation when all of Israel shall be saved that Paul was speaking about.

Jesus in Matthew 24:15 and forward is talking about the end times, and again the course of action for the Jews in Judea is to flee to the wilderness. For they will not be Christians at that time, as we see today, and will not escape those times.

Differently, the message to us and the course of action for anyone who is a Christian is in Luke 24:34-36. Jerusalem is the fig tree. And ours is the fig tree generation.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

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In 1thessalonians5, them saying peace and safety - shall not escape the Day of the Lord's beginnings.

Differently, the message in Luke 21:34-36 is to escape that day.

Davy said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because the Luke 21 chapter is covering many of the 'same' events that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are. The difference is how Luke 21 is giving just a little bit different information about the end.

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Hi Davy. I don't really like agreeing to disagree. I will present the FACTS, then you can agree to disagree with the facts.

Here's what Luke 21 says.
Luke 21
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Here is what Matt 24 says.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Here's the facts: Luke lists off things that will happen such as wars and rumors of wars....nations rising against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, famines etc and then says.........BUT BEFORE ALL THESE (things happen this is going to happen). Matthew lists the exact things happening with wars and rumors of wars etc, etc and then it says THEN (after these things this is going to happen)

The gospel of Luke refers to the things that happened in 70AD. The gospel of Matthew refers to things that have not yet happened.

It's pretty cut and dried, you either agree with the facts or you disagree. There is no interpretation needed, just read what it says.

Choose Wisely said:

Here's the facts: Luke lists off things that will happen such as wars and rumors of wars....nations rising against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, famines etc and then says.........BUT BEFORE ALL THESE (things happen this is going to happen). Matthew lists the exact things happening with wars and rumors of wars etc, etc and then it says THEN (after these things this is going to happen)

The gospel of Luke refers to the things that happened in 70AD. The gospel of Matthew refers to things that have not yet happened.

It's pretty cut and dried, you either agree with the facts or you disagree. There is no interpretation needed, just read what it says.

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Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Anyone who can read is able to clearly see that they are parallel accounts.

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Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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Davy said:

Amazing! Even the sign of Jesus' 2nd coming IN THE CLOUDS is given in BOTH Luke 21 and Matthew 24! Makes sense, because Jesus' disciples from the start asked Him what the signs of the end of this world would be.

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This is about The End of This Present World System dominated by Satan's influence since the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden...

When Jesus Will Come [IN THE CLOUDS] that will be to establish His Kingdom On The Earth
Revelation 20 is all about that.

Revelation 20

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.

Davy said:

But it is... the truth of God's Word. You have simply not recognized it, so no doubt it seems like a foreign idea to you with no link to 1 Thess.4, but it is the same events Paul described. I laid the Scripture out but you didn't read it all:

GATHERING OF THE ASLEEP SAINTS FROM HEAVEN:
Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

GATHERING OF THE ALIVE SAINTS ON EARTH:
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

That is perfectly in line with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

And I can guarantee you, Jesus is not going to gather only part of His Church without gathering His elect at the same time, which also IS... His Church, the Apostles even being part of the main foundation of it!

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Anyone can link scriptures - as if they were meant to be linked together:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

These verses seem to tell us what to do. But the truth is, they were never meant to be put together.

You only IMAGINE the gathering in Matthew 24 is linked to 1 Thes. 4. the truth is, they CANNOT be linked as the same event because of the timing. You cannot pull 1 thes. 4:16 & 17 out of their context. The context continues in chapter 5 where Paul tells us WHEN.

It is impossible for the rapture to be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath, and also happen after the days of great tribulation: simply impossible.

Therefore your theory is NOT perfectly in line with what Paul wrote - or what John wrote.

OF COURSE Matthew 24 is truth! Of course Luke 21 is truth. And of course 1 thes. 4 & 5 are truth. But they are not speaking of the same event. When Paul got the revelation of the rapture, it was a mystery until then. He was the ONLY apostle to receive that revelation.

Just hang on for a short while: Jesus will soon come for His own. Then you will know. He will come before the Day of the Lord and as the trigger for the start of the Day. And He will come before the 70th week.

Did you not notice that the great crowd too large to number is in Rev 7, NOT IN Rev. 16?

James2018 said:

Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach ?
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You asked a question, answered the question
and categorized everyone who disagrees
as having false doctrine.

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Ha ha! Nice observation!