the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
Yep, good thanks.
Good to hear. I hope where ever you are, you are having fun!
Maybe we will chat again in the future hey.
Upvote
0
Wherein I catch a profession YEC in a lie 2.0
- Thread starter HitchSlap
- Start date
- Status
Good to hear. I hope where ever you are, you are having fun!
Maybe we will chat again in the future hey.
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
Oh, Hey @the iconoclast !Hey hey
Been I while. Please excuse my absence, it has been a busy last couple of months.
I was attempting to reply to this post months ago.
Wow what a long post congrats again. I was willing to reply to that, however I will admit the post is way too long for my attention span and time.
Good to see you back!No problem on the post, I'll divee it up into more palatable pieces we can address, one topic at a time.
Sure, this sounds good. I'll let you address that point so we can discuss it. Thanks!This highlighted question seems to be a reoccurrng point you would like to make. How bout we start again here?
Cheers and thank you for your patience friend.
Upvote
0
the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
Hey bugs my dear friend.
Now this statement involves Christianity and what it claims.
How do we know that muslims, jews and atheists will be born never knowing the Christian God. How do you know that they will not be saved and never hear from God?
Cheers
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
Well, I know for a fact that I didn't hear about Jesus until well into high school. I didn't know about Jesus allegedly being God incarnate until I started researching epistemology a few years ago and how we come about our beliefs when I found out about grown Adults in first world countries believing the hilarious notion that the earth was only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.Hey bugs my dear friend.
Now this statement involves Christianity and what it claims.
How do we know that muslims, jews and atheists will be born never knowing the Christian God. How do you know that they will not be saved and never hear from God?
Cheers
There was an entire continent of Australia with Aborigines here for more than 40,000 years who had no idea of Jesus - they have a fascinating compilation of dreamtime stories about their creation and other aspects of how the universe and everything in it came about, none of which relates even remotely to any of the abrahamic religions. There are tribes in the Amazon who not only haven't heard of Jesus, but don't even have a word for God, or Spirit. They assume the references that have been explained to them are simply the "memory" of passed away relatives - literally the closest and only thing they have to the supernatural ideas we have. They don't believe in ghosts or demons, etc. These tribes have tens of thousands of years of existence in these areas and at a minimum have just as many years without even exposure to the concept of the supernatural let alone an understanding of such a thing.
Upvote
0
the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
Hey there bugs
I would be more than delighted to help you understand more about Christianity.
This belief that earth is only a few thousand years old is a relatively new belief, and has no basis or merit in scripture. The 6,000 creation idea was arrived at by James Ussher - a 17th century Irish Archbishop.
He counted up estimates of the ages of Abraham’s family listed in the OT and calculated that the creation began (on the Julian calendar) on Saturday, October 22, 4004 BC, at 6 pm.
Even IF Ussher’s calculation are correct it would only tell us when Abraham lived, not when the earth was created.
Whether the earth is 6 seconds old, 10mins too early or billions of years old, we christians believe one thing, God created.
The method or logistics have no relevance to salvation from a Christian pov. Many christians believe many things re creation and how it was done. Some believe evolution is a process used by God - the guiding force behind. Some believe He hand-made, sculptured, painted, sung and danced the universe into creation.
I spoke once with a man who viewed God like a video game creator. One man liken Him to the Great Scientist. One man I conversed with described creation as like 'I dream of genie'. Snap of the finger, blink of an eye.
What matters is Who is Jesus and what will you/i/we do about it.
Upvote
0
the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
I think I can safely assume your question relates to 'What Will happen to the People Who Have Never Heard of Jesus Christ?'
Will all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ be sent to hell?
You and I, and everyone else will be judged and we will be judged FAIRLY.
Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed sin under the law. Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law.
The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts. All will stand before God and give their account.
Please note this scripture from Paul.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
Those who have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and have refused to believe have rejected Him, and, as such, will fall under the condemnation of God, because they have rejected His provision for our disobedience.
It seems there will be a stricter judgment for those who have REJECTED the gospel of Jesus Christ than those who have never heard.
Those who perpetrate evil, even without the knowledge of the gospel, will likewise be condemned, since they have violated their God-given conscience. In the same way, those who play the "religion game" of going to church on Sunday, but living apart from a relationship with God, will be judged according to the light they had and how far they obeyed God.
We are judged on the basis of what we know and how we act upon it.
Those who know the gospel, study it, and teach it will be under stricter judgment, since they have the ability of guide others, or lead them astray.
Jesus, in the parable of the Master and the slaves (Luke 12:41-48) talked about the difference in judgment between those who know the will of God vs. those who do not know:
"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. (Luke 12:47-48)
Christians will be judged as well.
What is salvation?
The term “salvation” is especially used to refer to the great deliverance from the penalty of sin, which is eternal death (Romans 6:23).
I'll leave it here as I do not want to make an 'epic' post.
There is so much more to discuss here. Please do not hesitate to ask any questions.
Please!!!
Cheers and God bless you and your family.
My friend.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
I agree. How do we find out who Jesus was and what I do about it next? Also, I guess I have to ask the same thing in turn about Allah and his final prophet Muhammed too. In fact, I'll have to do the same exercise for Brahman, Shiva, Thor, Wotan, Ra, and every other God that at least has religious adherents today too, right?Hey there bugs
I would be more than delighted to help you understand more about Christianity.
This belief that earth is only a few thousand years old is a relatively new belief, and has no basis or merit in scripture. The 6,000 creation idea was arrived at by James Ussher - a 17th century Irish Archbishop.
He counted up estimates of the ages of Abraham’s family listed in the OT and calculated that the creation began (on the Julian calendar) on Saturday, October 22, 4004 BC, at 6 pm.
Even IF Ussher’s calculation are correct it would only tell us when Abraham lived, not when the earth was created.
Whether the earth is 6 seconds old, 10mins too early or billions of years old, we christians believe one thing, God created.
The method or logistics have no relevance to salvation from a Christian pov. Many christians believe many things re creation and how it was done. Some believe evolution is a process used by God - the guiding force behind. Some believe He hand-made, sculptured, painted, sung and danced the universe into creation.
I spoke once with a man who viewed God like a video game creator. One man liken Him to the Great Scientist. One man I conversed with described creation as like 'I dream of genie'. Snap of the finger, blink of an eye.
What matters is Who is Jesus and what will you/i/we do about it.
Same with all the other Gods I mentioned and their respective Hells, Hades, Sheol, Purgatory, or whatever, even the very earliest incarnation of banished eternity of punishment & torture, the ancient Egyptian Hell.
...or Allah, or Vishnu, or Zeus, etc. How do we confirm what God (if any) are the correct God to pray to?
Well, we're still way ahead of ourselves here - we still haven't verified we have the right Religion yet. How do I know I have the right God to pray to? How do we tell this scripture is divinely inspired and is to be taken over, say for example, the Hindus? or the Jews, or even the Muslims, let alone all the previous religions of Egypt, Rome, Greece and the myriad of deities that have ever been worshipped throughout history before records existed...
well, it isn't a case of rejecting Jesus Christ - it's a matter of ensuring that we have the right God in the first place. What would the real creator of the universe think if I just started praying to the first (or most convincing) God proposition to pass my way, rather than the Actual creator? I'd be doing something that's arguably worse than not praying and just living a good life with my fellow humans in the first place, right?
Well, here's the rub. From what I know of your religion, it doesn't agree with the alleged "God-given conscience" I have. For example, I don't agree with slavery. I also don't believe in genocide. I don't believe that forcing a woman to marry her rapist is the right thing to do. Nor do I believe dashing newborns against the rocks to be right in the least. I don't believe daughters should be stoned to death on the doorstep of her father if she isn't a virgin on her wedding night and likewise, unruly kids don't deserve to be stoned to death at the edge of town either. I haven't even gone to homosexuals and a litany of other laws that the bible list I can't agree with in good conscience - rest assured though, this is a long list. This is the first indicator that the traits of this God don't match the claims made by the Scripture, so would the all-powerful, all knowing creator of this universe deliberately scuttle our understanding of his nature, or is it that the texts aren't divinely inspired? Then of course, you'd know the flow on effects of a religious text that isn't divinely inspired, even if the God is true.
Ultimately, we still need a way to determine its authenticity before blindly accepting it to be true.
providing it's the right religious text for the right God, of course...
But is Sin a thing? I guess it still comes back to us still having to verify we have the right text for the right religion for the right God. How do we do that in a way that separates us from all the other religions that have ever been practiced?
And you too!I'll leave it here as I do not want to make an 'epic' post.
There is so much more to discuss here. Please do not hesitate to ask any questions.
Please!!!
Cheers and God bless you and your family.
My friend.
Only in so much as I have the ability to bless you in a God's name (which I suspect is about the same as your ability is... )Questions as posed above.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
Hey hey bugs.
My friend iam glad you asked.
How do you find out anything? You seek and you find, someone tells you or you experience it for yourself.
How do i find out who you are? I go back through and read/find what is written about you or what you write about your self or try to get to you for personal contact, and or embrace.
Ask questions as you are doing now and keep asking.
A start is the Gospels or Gospel commentries. You find out about Jesus, what He said and what His claims are.
The best place to start is praying to Him - start a relationship. Prayer is communication. Start talking to Him. Tell Him anything. Yell at Him - if that is what you want.
To find God one must look. Looking is a doing action. I do not know why but God has chosen this method, only He knows. Like any relationship - girlfriend, friends, family - you only get out if it what you put in.
Ask me more!!!
What next?
Make a decision.
Go for it my friend.
Find out what they all say and come to a conclusion. Keep me updated. Ps
What is stopping you? Why do you not do this?
Please excuse me friend. What has the above statement got to do with my statement below.
Connie - "I think I can safely assume your question relates to 'What Will happen to the People Who Have Never Heard of Jesus Christ?'
Will all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ be sent to hell?"
You are a progressive free thinker are you not? Why don't you give it a shot. Pray to as many Gods as you possibly think of and come to a conclusion?
Ps I would recommend paying a respectful and reasonable amount of time on each to make a reasonable judgement.
What proof do you require? What form of verification would satisfy Bugeyedcreepy?
Why do you not reject Jesus Christ as Son of God - the Creator? What possibility could there be that stops you from being absolutely certain not to reject?
In this situation do you eventually repent, ask God for forgiveness and start worshipping Him?
Argue away my friend. Why is it worse?
Well let's increase your knowledge friend.
Homework:
Where does scripture agree with slavery?
Please supply your scriptural references.
Neither do I. We have something in common!!! Yah!!!!
Neither do I. 2 things in common
Neither do i. My friend that is quite graphic!. Where have you Been?
Neither do I. We have some things in common.
Let's go together. Give me your arguememt for why homosexuality is not immoral?
Why speculate. Give me a hightlight from this exhaustive list?
What was that first indicator and how does this thing indicate the state or level of the traits of God that dont match scripture?
Can you give me an instance?
What are these flow on effects you speak of?
Give it a shot. Put your money where your mouth is my dear.
Prove it for yourself. Get the sources and compare.
No. Sin is not an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.
Sin is a an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
This question is slightly repeative but the answer is the experience.
The practical contact with and observation of facts or events or an event or occurrence which leaves an impression on someone.
The result.
Thank You for the blessing. It is most kind and respectful of you. Your courteous manner is refreshing.
Cheers my dear
Upvote
0
Jackson Cooper
Well-Known Member
- Sep 18, 2017
- 609
- 182
- Country
- Afghanistan
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Single
It's a real shame how Paulogia is convinced that Western YEC evangelicals are the pillars of hardcore Christianity. Whenever Paul refers to YEC, he calls them Christians, so I suspect he doesn't view Biologos nor the significant number of Eastern Orthodox evolution-believers in high regard.
Upvote
0
- Jun 18, 2006
- 3,851,021
- 51,492
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
This is all well and good, I've looked into this as I've looked into a number of religions, they all present their own claims that have an equal amount of return on investment, whether it be reading the relevant holy texts, or praying to the divine being(s) they relate to. So far, none have presented anything in the way of inspiration or evidence in their favour.How do you find out anything? You seek and you find, someone tells you or you experience it for yourself.
How do i find out who you are? I go back through and read/find what is written about you or what you write about your self or try to get to you for personal contact, and or embrace.
Ask questions as you are doing now and keep asking.
A start is the Gospels or Gospel commentries. You find out about Jesus, what He said and what His claims are.
The best place to start is praying to Him - start a relationship. Prayer is communication. Start talking to Him. Tell Him anything. Yell at Him - if that is what you want.
To find God one must look. Looking is a doing action. I do not know why but God has chosen this method, only He knows. Like any relationship - girlfriend, friends, family - you only get out if it what you put in.
I've done this already, more than once - so nothing is stopping me.Go for it my friend.
What is stopping you? Why do you not do this?
It has to deal with the equal claims for all the other religions with an equal realm for banishing those whom have passed away to be judged.
I have done this and my conclusion is that I have yet to be presented with a God(s) proposition that has merit. I've also concluded that if there is a God and that God cares about me, then that God will present me with a proposition that I wouldn't be able to ignore knowing that I've made great efforts already to discover one on my own and haven't found it despite those efforts.You are a progressive free thinker are you not? Why don't you give it a shot. Pray to as many Gods as you possibly think of and come to a conclusion?
Ps I would recommend paying a respectful and reasonable amount of time on each to make a reasonable judgement.
Well, personal revelation would be good, even if nobody else could verify it, that'd be a start. It may not be conclusive, but it would be a start
Perhaps a holy text that doesn't lend itself to confusion, let alone tens of thousands of denominations that all believe slightly different things from those very same texts.
Perhaps even a literal place somewhere in "creation" where we can all go and see, touch and even talk to a divine being that the texts refer to. This last one would of course be perfect, because it'd be independently verifiable.
Because I could be wrong about that - just as i could be wrong about Allah and his final prophet, Mohammed, Thor, Zeus, Brahma, etc.
Which God would I repent and ask for forgiveness from? How would I know when I have the right God? Should I just pick one from a lucky dip, or draw from a hat?
Depending on the God, by praying to the wrong God, I could be condemning myself to a violent death (for example, Bible Gateway passage: 2 Kings 10:18-28 - New King James Version ) - then Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 7 - King James Version is another good example of the Jewish God smiting other non-believers. Let's look to Islam and non-believers of Allah and his prophet Mohammed - from The death of disbelievers - My Religion Islam :
"Question: What treatment do disbelievers receive at the moment of death?
ANSWER
When a disbeliever is dying, the curtain is drawn back from his eyes, and Paradise is shown to him. An angel says to him,
“O disbeliever! You were on a wrong path, and you used to disapprove of the Islamic religion. You will not be able to enter Paradise because you are devoid of faith. Only those who have faith in the principles Muhammad ‘alaihis-salâm brought from Allahu ta’âlâ will enter Paradise.”
He sees the blessings in Paradise. The houris of Paradise, too, say, “The Believers will be saved from Allahu ta’âlâ’s torment.”
ANSWER
When a disbeliever is dying, the curtain is drawn back from his eyes, and Paradise is shown to him. An angel says to him,
“O disbeliever! You were on a wrong path, and you used to disapprove of the Islamic religion. You will not be able to enter Paradise because you are devoid of faith. Only those who have faith in the principles Muhammad ‘alaihis-salâm brought from Allahu ta’âlâ will enter Paradise.”
He sees the blessings in Paradise. The houris of Paradise, too, say, “The Believers will be saved from Allahu ta’âlâ’s torment.”
Zeus on the other hand is the only God who has the power to overcome Fate of the three sisters responsible for each and everyone's destiny as spun at birth:
In this respect, praying to Zeus would give us the best chance for prosperity, good health and long life, and perhaps even salvage from Hades at death.
This is where the Bible tells you where to get your slaves and how you get to keep them forever:
Then Exodus 21 expands on the owning of Slaves
Then the Bible instructs Slaves on how to conduct themselves for their masters:
Great! the Bible disagrees with you though, in no particular order:
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 2:30-35 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 3:2-7 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 7:2-6 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 7:16 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 3:2-7 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 7:2-6 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 7:16 - King James Version
Great! the Bible disagrees with you though.
Slightly off, but along the same lines of biblically decreed laws and conditions involving rape:
Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 31:15-18 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 22:23-27 - King James Version
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 22:23-27 - King James Version
Well, I've been to the Bible, and it disagrees with you.
Great! the Bible disagrees with you again though.Neither do I. We have some things in common.
because it's Natural. Homosexuality is known to occur naturally in all mammals at about 5% to 10% (we are mammals).
the above is enough for now - let's address those first. To me, those given already are reason enough to indicate the Bible might not be divinely inspired.
firstly 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" - yet the bible (that has been put together after this was written composited from a number of other scripture from unknown authors) is claiming Six day creation, Slavery, Genocide, Homosexuality being an abomination even though it's known to be natural, killing infants and even sporting a blood-magic cure for leprosy we know doesn't actually work.
then Matthew 5:17-19 which is where Jesus specifically upholds all the old testament laws "Til heaven and earth pass" - yet I don't know of any Christians that uphold all of the old testament laws, let alone a God that's here to keep them in check.
I've already touched on some of them - homosexuality being natural, the universe being 13.8 billion years old and the order of creation being different from what we now know to be true to state some.
that the Bible isn't divinely inspired and is at least filtered through fallible human beings would mean that many of the things written in it may not be accurate and can be influenced by said fallible humans to serve their personal worldly desires and goals rather than the creator of the Universe - that point would be one of caution if we want to honour the actual creator and not the will of those claiming to speak on the Creator's behalf.What are these flow on effects you speak of?
Give it a shot. Put your money where your mouth is my dear.
This is where we need to somehow get verification that what is written, is written on the Creator's behalf. I'm not sure it can be done and so far, nobody can show me a satisfactory way of doing that.
This is what I've already done, and I'm not getting any answers apart from "Try Harder" and "Try More".Prove it for yourself. Get the sources and compare.
...providing there is one, as discussed.
Right. But in my case, I'm not couched in one specific belief system over any other and I've had both good and bad experiences that even if divinely caused, can't be correlated to any particular religion. That said, even if I was only examining one religion at a time when I had what might be considered a divine experience, it still doesn't mean that particular religion is the cause of it - point is that every adherent of every religion could claim (and often has claimed) that their experience and/or good fortune confirms their religious beliefs - many of which are mutually exclusive (i.e. cannot be true at the same time), so we have a problem that puts us back at square one - that is, how do we determine which religion is true without referring to their respective Texts?
Upvote
0
the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
Hey hey bugs my delicious friend.
Science has the most reliable explanations as far as you are concerned.
The scientific method is a systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
A hypothesis is a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
To prove a hypothesis , a set of principles or procedures is needed according to which something is done; an organized scheme or method.
This method must be thorough and in accordance with the thing or subject (.eg to prove how far you can throw you must perform the action of throwing, to prove it I exist you must perform the action of seeking.
Please be honest. Have you done a systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypothesis of God or gods?
Have you been to church or witnessed Christian events multiple amounts of time? Have you spoke to Christians at many churches? Have you opened your heart to God and asked Him inside to test if it could happen? Have you performed any experiments using the Christian formula for a length of time? Have you tested whether there is a God? Have you sat there and read the word of God, cross checked it and went out of your way to understand it from a Christian POV? Have you ever tried to have relationship with God, where you earnestly seek Him with all your heart for an extended period of time? Have you ever had faith in something?
My dear you like mentioning Zeus. Have you ever tried to appease him when a storm hits your house? Have you ever appealed to him not to morph into a swan and force himself onto you? Have you actively owned a statue of Zeus, set up a shrine and made offerings to him?
Well my friend what statement or assertion that expresses a judgement or opinion do you need from God - that you could not ignore?
What are these equal claims?
Some examples of salvation in other religions.
Islam say submit to Allah and accept mohommad as the prophet of Allah.
Bhuddism says to blow out the candle, be rid of desire and action, which leads to suffering.
Hinduism suggests karma for good reincarnation.
Zeus suggests appease him and he won't morph into a swan and become less of a gentleman.
Christianity spreads the good news that Jesus died for our sins so we may be reconciled to God.
Repentance is a 'thing' in Christianity my dear. It would be the Christian God!
The Holy spirit will lead you once you have accepted Jesus with all your heart and commit yourself to Him. Accepting Him as your saviour - a covenant.
The Holy Spirit is like an intuition in your heart. It feels like immense joy and the feeling of backflips and somersaults when in worship. It can feel like a pressure on the heart that something is wrong. It tells you things but not like a voice in your head. I can only describe it as an intuition. You feel it once and you remember it for ever.
Sounds creative. A religious lucky dip. Go for it
. I would recommend exemplifing the scientific method. Be honest and thorough. Try this.
If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved. For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)
Go into a private space. Confess this verse with faith. Close your eyes start praising God a bit or you can tell Him everything that is on your mind. Direct your thoughts to Him. Open up your heart and do it more than once.
Get the personal revelation you seek. Start a relationship with God. Try it on for size. It will be your little secret!
What parts confuse you? Maybe I can be some assistance.
Check this out. I typed Google and denominations population
Catholic Church – 1.285 billion.
Protestantism – 920 million.
Eastern Orthodox Church – 270 million.
Oriental Orthodoxy – 86 million.
Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism – 35 million.
Independent Catholicism – 18 million.
Minor branches – 1 million.
This huge number of denominations is relatively new. The subject on denominations is quite interesting and more complex. We can discuss?
I have no problem with denominations. The majority worship the same Christ. Just do things slightly differently or put emphasis on something.
I'm Pentecostal. I choose to be this denomination because I'm familiar with it and agree with it. I go to a Methodist church right now. My brother goes to a Baptist. I'd attend a Baptist church any day of the week - if I felt like a break from my usual church.
Some Christians declare they are non denominational.
You can see a literal place of creation everytime you are awake. This whole earth was not random and you are not an insignificant spec on a beach. You are someone who is unique and special.
You matter.
What exactly could you be wrong about Jesus not being the Son of God?
What is this slim possibility Jesus could be the Son of God?
Well here's some good news you are under a new covenant with God. You can repent!
Is Islam your former religion? My dear was that friend of yours you?
This verse seems to only condemns you if you are about to die. Still plenty of time to apply the scientific method to religions.
Anyways dont worry. Islam is false and full of inaccuracies. Wanna know ask?
Please excuse me my exquisite gem of a friend. I think you are cool! What has this got to do with,
"Depending on the God, by praying to the wrong God, I could be condemning myself to a violent death "
My illustrious friend, If he is all that why did the Greeks abandon him and their gods?
Does regulation equate to an endorsement?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
Which law are those people under. The law of Moses or the law of Grace?
Which law am I under?
Am I as a Christian bound by this law deu 2:30-35?
What has deu 3:2-7, 7:1-6 and deu 7:16 have to do with marrying your rapist?
Where is dashing newborns against the rocks sighted in deu 22:23-27?
Where does numbers 31:15-18 endorse rape?
Deuteronomy 22
But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
The day of Jerusalem" is the day of her fall, when Edom took part with her enemies, and rejoiced at her destruction.
This is in context to the verse psalm 137. They are lamenting over Jerusalem.
Have you considered that this psalm is not recommending you to be happy but is describing someone who is happy when he brings on thee the worst calamities of war. This type of person will not go unpunished.
Am I under the law of moses?
Pleas excuse me my dear. You should know me well enough to know I do not accept a logical fallacy (.eg an appeal to nature)
Could you please provide your reference for this 5-10% in ALL mammals?
Evolution includes positive mutations from reproduction.
How does homosexual sex provide a benefit for the gene pool and aid in variation?
All good. Just addressed them. Can not wait for this exhaustive list you speak of!
The Bible was written over a span of 1500 years, by 40 writers. The Bible is factual news account of real events, places, people, and dialogue.
It is a collection of sacred texts or scriptures that Jews and Christians consider to be a product of divine inspiration and a record of the relationship between God and humans.
The Christian Old Testament overlaps with the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Septuagint; the Hebrew Bible is known in Judaism as the Tanakh. The New Testament is a collection of writings by early Christians, believed to be mostly Jewish disciples of Christ, written in first-century Koine Greek
It is divided into 2 sections. The old covenant with God - the OT. Life before law of Moses (.eg adam and abrahamic) and life under the law of moses.
The new covenant with God - the NT. The law of Grace.
The Bible contains covenants. Adam had one. Abraham had one. Moses had one. David had one. Jesus is the final covenant and an offer for reconciliation to all.
The OT dealt with the Jews. The NT deals with us all.
What you think???
Hold up. Whoaa. Dont forget the 7th day of rest. Have you considered that these 7 days of creation may not have been consecutive?
Slavery seems to be a human condition that other humans apply to each other and even still to this day. The Bible regulates slavery but does not endorse it. Freedom from slavery is a huge 'thing' in Christianity.
The Hebrew Bible may contain many passages outlining approaches to, and descriptions of, violent activities, centering on the ancient nation of Israel and their involvement with Gentile nations. They also provide civil guidelines on the subject of violent activity as it pertains to individuals within the nation, distinguishing individualistic from nationalistic actions.
Let's imagine that these people you refer to re genocide were a wicked people, involved in child sacrifice, abdominal actions and would kill you, your family and all your people. What would you do?
How do you think the ISIS situation should have been handled?
An appeal to nature is an argument or rhetorical tactic in which it is proposed that "a thing is good because it is 'natural'.
Ok I'll bite. Are pregnancies natural?
Allready addressed this one.
Could you supply a reference?
Jesus was under the law moses. Until His death Him and His disciples were. Jesus' death and resurrection was the new covenant.
Can you supply another reason besides a logical fallacy?
I'm curious. How do you know the universe is 13.8 billions old?
Consider this. 1,000,000,000,000 = 1 trillion. That sentence - depending on screen resolution - is 1 inch long. The circumferance of the world is 40,075 km.
Even if I wrote a line of zeros for 1000s of kms that still would not accurately get close to infinity. Space is infinite is it not?
When we looks at odds in the trillions we are looking at extremely unlikely odds. When we look at odds 10 to power of one million we are looking at closer to impossible odds.
How do you explain a random formation of the universe, using odds that are close to impossible and in a frame work of 13 billion years?
What order of creation is different from what?
This line of thought delves in the subject of integrity.
You may be applying your view that all men serve their worldly desires before all else. Is this not a form judging?
Do you serve your worldly desires before the safety of your family?
Do you serve your worldly desires before your principles?
Why stop with the Bible? How about all human history? How do we know all the facts humans have spoken are not for personal gain and are error?
With this line of thought. How can I or anyone else trust you?
We have a verse for caution!
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
When you read scripture, why do you feel that these people are out to stitch you up? What are the cons about being a Christian? What would being a Christian stop you from doing?
See answer as discussed.
Wow. This begs the question. What was this big divine experience you had?
As always this has been fun. Looks like things are about to get 'epic' from you. Reminder I'm not one for epic posts. Too much for me.
Just because you silence someone does not mean you have converted him.
How about you choose one subject at a time. Some of your questions require way more attention than what I can give with these long posts.
I know. I know. I just answered this post of yours and it got too 'epic'. I dont want you to feel your post got less attention than it deserves. I assume you put your work in and that is quite admiral.
I've still got more ammo and will continue but with so much to say we could slow things down. Let's reason together!
Cheers you absolute diamond.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
In all honesty, it doesn't matter if a deity condemns people to a hell that didn't believe and were never exposed to the doctrine or not, it creates a problem either way.
If the deity condemns such people, then obviously, the deity isn't exactly being fair and people definitely couldn't claim that it is particularly benign.
If the deity doesn't condemn these people, that means that the best way to ensure salvation is to never spread the religion, because it circumvents the need for belief entirely. In fact, it would mean that missionaries only ensure that MORE people go to hell.
If the deity condemns such people, then obviously, the deity isn't exactly being fair and people definitely couldn't claim that it is particularly benign.
If the deity doesn't condemn these people, that means that the best way to ensure salvation is to never spread the religion, because it circumvents the need for belief entirely. In fact, it would mean that missionaries only ensure that MORE people go to hell.
Upvote
0
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
Yes, and No. Yes, to the best of my abilities, I have sought to seek and understand whatever deity their might be irrespective of any particular religion's interpretation, and No, I'm unaware of a way to test the supernatural using the Scientific Method. Do you know of a way?Hey hey bugs my delicious friend.
Science has the most reliable explanations as far as you are concerned.
The scientific method is a systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
A hypothesis is a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
To prove a hypothesis , a set of principles or procedures is needed according to which something is done; an organized scheme or method.
This method must be thorough and in accordance with the thing or subject (.eg to prove how far you can throw you must perform the action of throwing, to prove it I exist you must perform the action of seeking.
Please be honest. Have you done a systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypothesis of God or gods?
Yes, I have both relatives, friends in a number of churches and have even had relationships with believers of various denominations too. I have asked God to know me and have read the Bible and tried a number of methods it suggests for knowing/communicating with God, and yes, I have indeed sought him with all my heart and had faith in many things in my lifetime. (critical thinking has only been a recent thing for me in this search for understanding)
Not Zeus, no. I have met a Nordic Heathen who did for their version of Zeus though (that'd be Odin, just for the record), that was a very interesting discussion and the nordic religion, though a minority, is very much alive and practiced even today. This, if the line of hereditary back through the Roman and Greek Gods is true as was indicated in our conversations, would mean they too have a longer lasting religion than any of the Abrahamic religions in practice.
I'm not sure - but if God is real and is as described in your holy text, then he knows exactly what it would take to be clear to me in a way I cannot ignore.Well my friend what statement or assertion that expresses a judgement or opinion do you need from God - that you could not ignore?
Now with my understanding of Science, its methods and critical thinking, I am better positioned now than ever to assess any experiences I might be subject to along these lines.
Not sure of that last claim of killing innocent people for vicarious redemption, or scapegoating (if it even happened that way to begin with) is 'good news', that seems like an evil thing for anyone to allow, let alone a God who has the ample power to stop it.
Anyway, to clarify, pretty much all of them share equal claims of near death experiences, equal claims of goodness and retribution, equal or better claims of holy texts, equal claims of miracles, healings and encounters with angels/prophets, equal claims of changed lives, etc.
Other religions have their own version of 'Repentance' too I would imagine. The point is, why repent (or otherwise make appropriations) to this God over all the others?
You don't seem to understand how reality works (I don't mean to offend, this isn't my intention but I need to make this point), you keep starting out from a position of Belief in your particular religious deity as if it were an established fact when it just isn't. Essentially what you are telling me to do is "Accept it as true first, then look for personal and unsubstantiated/unverifiable experiences to confirm what has already been assumed as true". This isn't how the Scientific method works. This is literally Confirmation Bias and is a huge 'No-No" in critical thinking.
I can do this for any religion and have the same confirmation bias cement my belief in another religion and deity - the sheer fact that a majority of the world's religious believers all believe in other Gods that aren't yours is fact alone. There are many, many stories almost identical to the witnessing of Christian experiences, healings and changed lives that are because of other religions and Gods. This happens all the time and I've given you numerous examples in our previous conversations for which you've literally ignored, other than to say in passing once that they're probably mistaken Your god for theirs - in actual fact their religions have often been long in place before your religion in any form had even come about, so if anything, it might very well be you mistaking their God and religion for yours.
How does one use the scientific method to examine the supernatural? Could you give an example?Sounds creative. A religious lucky dip. Go for it
Apart from having prayed in faith many times when I was younger, does this act you want me to try require belief beforehand as above? i.e. does it matter if I don't believe what I'm confessing and who I'm confessing to as being real?Try this.
If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved. For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)
Go into a private space. Confess this verse with faith. Close your eyes start praising God a bit or you can tell Him everything that is on your mind. Direct your thoughts to Him. Open up your heart and do it more than once.
Get the personal revelation you seek. Start a relationship with God. Try it on for size. It will be your little secret!
Why condemn the eating of crustaceans and the wearing of mixed fabric, but not Slavery, why the Canaanites, Midianites and Amalakites had to die right down to the infants and livestock, why God said to kill all the men and boys and all the women who have known a man by laying with him, but all the virgin girls (who just witnessed these monsters killing their entire family and community), keep for yourselves to take as wives (sex slaves, they had no choice), why God wanted to kill all the first borns of Egypt, why why Christians don't heed Jesus' word when he said that even the least of the laws are to be observed (Matthew 5:17-19), yet Christians don't observe them?
Why is there more than one denomination? Shouldn't there just be ONE religion in favour of your God? If it is such an obvious fact that this is the right God, why so many ways and differing beliefs between them while they all claim 100% certainty and/or knowledge?
If this is the one true universal truth, then why do each of the denominations interpret their scripture differently to the others? There is something wrong for this to be possible without the God of this scripture correcting it.
I'm not sure it has to be a creation and it isn't just natural forces operating on matter over billions of years, but If it is a literal creation I see every time I wake, Why would it be Your God's creation and not another God's creation? How can you be certain?You can see a literal place of creation everytime you are awake. This whole earth was not random and you are not an insignificant spec on a beach. You are someone who is unique and special.
You matter.
I simply don't know for certain. That is all. I have no more reason to believe this though than any of the other religions I've ever assessed, and there are quite a few.
But that is only the case if your God is the One True God, and there's no way to know this among all the holy texts and religions available.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
No. I have two friends and a work colleague who are islamic that I've had discussions with.
I don't worry anymore. Also, Islam says Christianity is false and full of inaccuracies. If you want to know, seek an Imam and ask. I have. Now, you both make the same claims of each other so who do I believe and why?
Some Gods will spend an eternity torturing me in their form of hell if I don't recognise them as the true creator of this universe, YHWH, Zeus and Allahu come to mind. Notable other undesirable afterlives include Osiris of the Ancient Egyptians and the Mesopotamian afterlife narratives. Given that YHWH and Allahu aside, all other religions predate the abrahamic religions, it would be prudent to investigate them more fully given they've been around longer and therefore were around with greater support to the time of creation (i.e. they were first, and likely because if there was a God, that God would've been fresh in humanity's mind)
The nature of humanity and civilisations is as such. Just as Judaism, Christianity and Islam were minority faiths back in times of the Egyptian, Greek and Roman Gods for a very long time, and Christianity is now waning and Islam and those of no belief are increasing today.
Yes. Is Murder regulated? Is homosexuality regulated? Is eating shellfish regulated? Is wearing mixed fabric regulated? No, the Bible explicitly outlaws them, no further discussion. At no place is Slavery condemned in the same way as these other "sins" are.
Where can the law of Grace be read for clarity, and where does the bible rescind the law of Moses?
I don't know, but as far as I was aware, there is only God's Law - 613 Laws as were written, are there more?
Where can the law of Grace be read for clarity, and where does the bible rescind the law of Moses?
Why are they included in the Bible if they don't apply anymore?
Nothing, I didn't say it did. That's your God ordering and/or condoning genocide, not rape. Rape is the next section - I feel you've misaligned your replies...
Did you not read this? After slaughtering all of her family and community around her (Numbers 31:15-17), Numbers 31:18 then says "But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. " - What do you think the soldiers keeping all the virgin girls for themselves while murdering everyone else they love is going to lead to, a happy loving equal-rights relationship in holy matrimony? Just for a moment, put yourself in a position of a young girl where a waring nation invades your city, ransacks it, murders everyone around you, notably your father and mother, grandparents, any uncles and aunties that aren't virgins and your brothers and everyone else who isn't a virgin - is it your position that these invaders have your best interests at heart and you look forward to being taken by one to be married to and possibly added to his other wives who probably themselves came as war plunder from other conquered cities?
and that's because her screams of rape would likely go unheard, and that's only for married women (i.e. already the property of another man) being raped in the country,- different story if she was in the City being raped though...because she should've screamed louder, otherwise she wanted it and therefore has committed adultery - and of course, men raping virgins *anywhere* just pay a fine to their current owners (i.e. fathers) and get/have to keep the victim.
This is the verse where dashing newborns against the rocks is sighted. It is a "blessed" event too, no less.
Perhaps you could redress each of those paragraphs correctly since you seem to have misaligned the response to the wrong sections for the most part and somehow completely missed the correlation - so let me repeat:
On Slavery
On Genocide
On Rape
On dashing babies against the rocks and being blessed to do so
On stoning non-virgin daughters and unruly children at the edge of town or father's footsteps
Neither do I. We have some things in common.
If, as you say, the old laws didn't apply, then what of the ten commandments, they don't apply either? Why/why not? Also, what foundation is it that you claim when you stand your ground on homosexuality being a "sin" if these laws of Moses no longer apply? How do you determine what does and does not apply in the New Testament?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
No, Evolution includes random mutations from various causes including reproduction, which is then filtered via natural selection - on benefits, I'll include some statements below combined with the percentile quotes as requested:
there are a few references at hand (though I can't find the specific study I saw these figures) and they include online references such as:
Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia which states:
"Homosexual behavior in animals is sexual behavior among non-human species that is interpreted as homosexual or bisexual. This may include same-sex sexual activity, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting among same-sex animal pairs.[1][2][3][4] Research indicates that various forms of this are found in every major geographic region and every major animal group. The sexual behavior of non-human animals takes many different forms, even within the same species, though homosexual behavior is best known from social species."
it continues:
"One species in which exclusive homosexual orientation occurs, however, is that of domesticated sheep (Ovis aries).[9][10] "About 10% of rams (males), refuse to mate with ewes (females) but do readily mate with other rams."[10]"
it continues:
"No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."
List of mammals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia which states:
"For these mammals, there is documented evidence of homosexual behavior of one or more of the following kinds: sexual behavior, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting."
"Homosexual behavior in animals is sexual behavior among non-human species that is interpreted as homosexual or bisexual. This may include same-sex sexual activity, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting among same-sex animal pairs.[1][2][3][4] Research indicates that various forms of this are found in every major geographic region and every major animal group. The sexual behavior of non-human animals takes many different forms, even within the same species, though homosexual behavior is best known from social species."
it continues:
"One species in which exclusive homosexual orientation occurs, however, is that of domesticated sheep (Ovis aries).[9][10] "About 10% of rams (males), refuse to mate with ewes (females) but do readily mate with other rams."[10]"
it continues:
"No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."
List of mammals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia which states:
"For these mammals, there is documented evidence of homosexual behavior of one or more of the following kinds: sexual behavior, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting."
Regarding your benefits of homosexuality question, Do Animals Exhibit Homosexuality? states:
"Biologists Nathan W. Bailey and Marlene Zuk from the University of California, Riverside have investigated the evolutionary consequences and implications of same-sex behavior, and their findings demonstrate benefits to what seems to be an evolutionary paradox. For example, their studies of the Laysan albatross show that female-female pairing can increase fitness by taking advantage of the excess of females and shortage of males in the population and provide superior care for offspring. Moreover, same-sex pairing in many species actually alleviates the likelihood of divorce and curtails the pressure on the opposite sex by allowing members to exhibit more flexibility to form partnerships, which in turn strengthens social bonds and reduces competition. Thus, not only do animals exhibit homosexuality, but the existence of this behavior is quite prevalent and may also confer certain evolutionary advantages."
Is 10% of the population really gay?
1,500 animal species practice homosexuality
www.lcc.ctc.edu/faculty/mstrayer/psyc111-n/documents/Articles/Animal%20Love.doc which states:
"But if homosexuality occurs among animals, does that necessarily mean that it is natural for humans, too? And that raises a familiar question: if homosexuality is not a choice, but a result of natural forces that cannot be controlled, can it be immoral?" - then continues:
"Among birds, for instance, studies show that 10 to 15 percent of female western gulls in some populations in the wild are homosexual. Females perform courtship rituals, like tossing their heads at each other or offering small gifts of food to each other, and they establish nests together."
Is 10% of the population really gay?
1,500 animal species practice homosexuality
www.lcc.ctc.edu/faculty/mstrayer/psyc111-n/documents/Articles/Animal%20Love.doc which states:
"But if homosexuality occurs among animals, does that necessarily mean that it is natural for humans, too? And that raises a familiar question: if homosexuality is not a choice, but a result of natural forces that cannot be controlled, can it be immoral?" - then continues:
"Among birds, for instance, studies show that 10 to 15 percent of female western gulls in some populations in the wild are homosexual. Females perform courtship rituals, like tossing their heads at each other or offering small gifts of food to each other, and they establish nests together."
The studies that show these figures and research are referenced on these pages - there's far too much to include here, but let me know if you have any other questions.
Moving on, at no stage did I say homosexual 'sex' provides a benefit, or for that matter, even that homosexuals provide a benefit either - it's simply a fact I pointed out. Homosexuals exist is a fact in the same way that Asians existing is a fact. a homosexual unity might not produce children, but it does however provide an evolutionary advantage as indicated by research and mentioned above. Let's not call it "natural" since you'd rather consider it a fallacy and I'd rather you get past that and address the issue. People, as well as mammals, animals, etc. are born homosexual at around 5% to 10%. They don't have to have sex to be considered homosexual, in fact penetration doesn't always occur between some human same sex loving couples. For them, it is literally two people who love one another and have accepted each other as life partners.
As you made made mention, there's already volumous content in our conversations - I won't forget to expand this list but let's address what I've already listed before moving on.
I think there is no evidence of this "law of grace" that you keep invoking, I again point you to Matthew 5:17-19 where Jesus specifically says everything still applies until heaven and earth pass and all is fulfilled. Earth is still here, it has not passed and according to your theology, Jesus still has to return & raise the dead, etc. And before it gets mentioned & hopefully save some time, Jesus literally refers to the old covenant and speaks of earth passing, not any actions or prophecies, or his passing, etc. Just that "Till heaven and earth pass". Only then could the laws be set aside because only then, according to him, could "all be fulfilled".
There's quite a number of interpretations and as I said before, Christians believe a very diverse and creative spectrum of interpretations of this, pretty much all of them are mutually exclusive to every other Christian's interpretation. even Christians don't have a clear and consistent grasp of this - how on earth would I have a chance? Put simply, a vast majority of interpretations are factually incorrect with what we know about reality and the amount of mental gymnastics required to twist it to fit is simply untenable and certainly no better than any other religious creation narrative, for which you'd no doubt be the first to scoff at when being presented with it.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
I'll tell you how we're not handling it - We don't conquer each village, murder all the men, women and boys to wipe out ISIS, then divee up the virgin girls as plunder to become unwilling wives for the soldiers.
What we would do though, as we did for Germany post WWII, would be to embark on a social, political and structural reform & rebuild of the country and its people. Those who insist on continuing their destructive and antisocial agendas get to do prison time like any other entrenched criminal in society. This is why the UN exists, and why the UN Charter is a HUGE Improvement over the barbaric practices of the tribes of israel back in the day. Too bad we as humans have it sorted way better than your God could - admittedly it isn't perfect, but our humanity today is acres above the old testament vengeful God. If you did any of what the old testament God encouraged, you'd find yourself fronting a war crimes tribunal that'd likely be the end of you and your legacy.
Yes, pregnancies are natural. To move ahead to help the conversation along, Gay couples adopt abandoned/orphaned children, provide foster care for other children otherwise in need of it, and women couples can (and often do) invitro fertilization or achieve pregnancies with male friends naturally.
Not sure you have - why murder the innocent first borns of Egypt to punish the parents of humans and animals alike? What is the point of this? Couldn't a God come up with a better solution than this mess? Especially since we humans know better now, and this act is clearly immoral and unwarranted for an all-powerful creator of the universe - and surely, such an omnipotent being would know this would be seen in such a light one day?
Leviticus 14:2-32
Well, how could that be since "heaven and earth" (well, earth at least) have yet to pass and "all" is yet to "be fulfilled" (i.e. doesn't Jesus still have prophecies to fulfil?), so those two things are not done, Earth still to pass and all to be fulfilled.
You keep pointing to this as a catch-all when I believe you're mistaken. Would it be a fallacy to say that black people are natural and this doesn't make them lesser humans, or sinners worthy of an eternity in hell?
Likewise, I make the claim that homosexual people are natural and this doesn't make them lesser humans, or sinners worthy of an eternity in hell.
Either both statements are appeal to nature fallacies, or both are statements of fact.
Because we can see as far back as 13.4 billion years into this universe's past to the surface of last scattering, something we were able to predict given everything else we've learnt about the universe. The "big Bang" model of the cosmos is the best explanation we currently have for this universe and this model predicts that beginning approximately 13.8 billion years ago.
I'm not sure - are you asserting that? because what we do know is that spacetime (i.e. three dimensions and time) is an intrinsic part of this universe, so it doesn't necessarily follow that there's three dimensions and time outside of it.
You don't do much science, do you? We have one universe to examine. Of that one universe, 100% of them have life in it. How do you know that the fundamental forces could be any different? and even if they could be different and the odds are infinitesimally slim, would you expect to find yourself in another of the quantzillions of universes that *couldn't* support life? or would you instead find that life only manifests in the one universe that supports life - life which in turn finds out that the odds are strikingly obscene that this one universe exists with all these fine tuned parameters, not knowing about those other quantzillions of universes that failed?
From CH801: Order of events in Genesis :
The creation account in Genesis 1 lists ten major events in this order:
(1) a beginning;
(2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water;
(3) light;
(4) an expanse or atmosphere;
(5) large areas of dry land;
(6) land plants;
(7) sun, moon, and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning;
(8) sea monsters and flying creatures;
(9) wild and tame beasts and mammals;
(10) man. The odds of getting that order correct by chance are one in 3,628,800.
The real order is:
(1) a beginning;
(2) light;
(3) sun and stars;
(4) primitive earth, moon, and atmosphere;
(5) dry land;
(6) sea creatures;
(7) some land plants;
(8) land creatures and more plants and sea creatures;
(9) flying creatures (insects) and more plants and land and sea creatures;
(10) mammals, and more land and sea animals, insects, and plants;
(11) the first birds,
(12) fruiting plants (which is what Genesis talks about) and more land, sea, and flying creatures;
(13) man and more of the various animals and plants.
This doesn't have to be an integrity issue at all - people can be (and often are) mistaken.
No, I don't judge, because again, dishonesty is not the only reason something may not be accurate - it is also a fact that worldly desires do influence our writings and nobody knows how the authors of the bible came to write what they wrote - did God sit beside them and dictate directly, or did they feel inspiration from within as many pastors, preachers and believers of all religions (not just Christianity) do today? If you felt divinely inspired, would you be able to accurately write your experience for someone else to read with 100% accuracy? Try it next time you're divinely inspired.
My Family are within my worldly desires.
My principles are within my worldly desires.
History is repleat with rewritten histories, generally written by the conquerors. Diligence is required to unearth as much of that historical record as is possible, so we might be as accurate as we could be.
Trust should be apportioned to the claim and quality of the evidence provided. i.e. if you claim your name is Shannon, and you have a pet dog called Spot, I might be inclined to accept this without contest, because this is an ordinary, mundane claim - I know plenty of people would be named Shannon, and that people have pets and name their pets as such. This would be entirely different if you were to say "I have a personal immortal being that walks with me everywhere I go and guides my way unseen and unnoticed so I might enjoy an eternal paradise in afterlife with him when I die" - then I'd struggle to just accept this at face value, because this is an extraordinary claim given none of these things are known to be.
Jumping the Gun - the veracity of the Bible is not established, nor is the Deity promoted by it. To be rational, we have to check all of the religious texts with the same scepticism to see how they measure - and so far, they all carry the same weight - that is, little to none.
I don't think anyone is out to stitch me up - I just don't have a compelling reason over all the other religious propositions out there. Again, critical thinking means that a proposition should be considered firstly on the weight of the claim, then on the supporting evidence in favour of it. If the claim is ordinary, then little to no evidence is required. If the claim is extraordinary, then the evidence in support of it will need to be very well substantiated. To build my life around a Christian (or for that matter, any religious) proposition, I would of course require substantial compelling evidence for this claim. Such a claim is not a mundane and ordinary claim.
I doubt I've ever had one, but I do note that many Christians claim miracles happen to them every day, such as having found their car keys, or their excema clears up, or after a gruelling 6 month course of chemo and scientifically backed medical treatment, their cancer goes into remission, etc. In fact, one show I watched just this week where a lady was kidnapped, raped and tortured for two days straight, at which time she escaped all bruised, beaten and bloody, only to thank God for giving her the strength to break free from her restraints while the kidnapper was gone - where was God when this whole thing started and carried on for two days? Another instance I couldn't help but laugh at was the lady that was medically evacuated from Africa by a crack team of medical professionals, doctors and nurses to a dedicated treatment center where she underwent two months of intense treatment using pioneering vaccines and medicines, only to appear at a conference where she instantly thanked God for her recovery and didn't once mention the medical staff that had saved her from a morbidly painful death from ebola.... but I digress.
Pretty much all other religious followers attribute similar "Miracles" to their faiths and their God(s) in equal ratios. You can't all be right.
Hey, Thanks!
I'll try to concentrate on the initial claims of the Biblical examples of said indiscretions I wouldn't partake in (i.e. everything above the 5%-10% homosexuality discussion), would that be narrow enough for now? I imagine the discussion may also include Matthew 5:17-19 as well on whether the old covenant still applies or if your "grace" covenant (wherever that is) is the new unmentioned law?Cheers again!
Last edited:
Upvote
0
the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
That statement in now way seem confusing.
Hey hey bugs.
Wow you were quick. That must have taken you some time. I feel flattered to know you spent so much time addressing me. I'm glad we can continue and at the same time overwhelmed by your response.
As your bff dogmahunter would put it. That was epic!!!!
But you took the time to answer me so I would like to thank you for your reply. Looks like we shall continue on. I'm down and am not going away anytime too soon.
Friend we have been doing this since Aug last year. We are about to have our 1 year anniversary soon. Can you believe it!!! I feel that we can really call ourselves friends now. Man I wish we could meet!!!
You are a star. Please do not take this to mean offense but God bless you and your whole family through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Bugeyedcreepy
Well-Known Member
That statement in now way seem confusing.
Hey hey bugs.
Wow you were quick. That must have taken you some time. I feel flattered to know you spent so much time addressing me. I'm glad we can continue and at the same time overwhelmed by your response.
As your bff dogmahunter would put it. That was epic!!!!
But you took the time to answer me so I would like to thank you for your reply. Looks like we shall continue on. I'm down and am not going away anytime too soon.
Friend we have been doing this since Aug last year. We are about to have our 1 year anniversary soon. Can you believe it!!! I feel that we can really call ourselves friends now. Man I wish we could meet!!!
You are a star. Please do not take this to mean offense but God bless you and your whole family through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.
lol!Thanks Iconoclast,
Yeah, sorry for the epic replies - so much to say, so little space to say it... I try to keep it short, but it seems everything answered creates three more questions for me... -_-
Thanks for taking the time to discuss, I do appreciate it, are we really nearly a year in?? omgoodness! 0.o - it has been enlightening though...
...and sorry again for the Epic replies too...
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
