Is God just choosing one over the another?????????
- Thread starter Mountainmanbob
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Can I ask you what you did to deserve the love of God?
Are you good now?
We're you good prior to being saved?
By whose standards? Yours?
All i read in your posts is that you deserve something and there is someone saying you don't..
So, I'd like to hear your justification for your being particularly deserving of God's love..
Because as for me? I deserved to be sent straight to hell.. that's what I deserved. I didn't even deserve a hint of salvation, let alone the fruition of it being extended to me.
Jews? Do you see anything that is especially deserving of God's special attention, love and care?
No. They seem pretty normal to me, as undeserving as anyone else..
This is the point, we cant be good enough to deserve anything. What is extended therefore is a gift..
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Let's not forget the point Paul is driving for. Paul's driving to a point somewhat different from the point that Calvinists use his words.
Paul is not trying to prove that God can condemn anyone He wants--the Jews already knew that, and they already believed that Gentiles were the "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." That's not what Paul was trying to prove, because that's what the Jews already believed.
Paul was trying to prove that God could also save whoever He wanted to save, even from the "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." The Jews did not believe that God would save gentiles.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
"Yahweh does whatever He Pleases. "
No one else holds the words of eternal life. (thus, the disciples who did not forsake Jesus did not go anywhere else - they remained with Jesus knowing that no one else had the words of eternal life).
Yahweh says in His Word what happens to most multitudes on earth in most all the religious groups and out of all the religious groups. It is not pleasant at all, no, not at all.
It is Yahweh's Good Pleasure, as Jesus Says Clearly and Plainly, to REVEAL (revelation) Salvation to little children, as He Pleases, and to HIDE SALVATION from the educated ones, as He Pleases.
No one else holds the words of eternal life. (thus, the disciples who did not forsake Jesus did not go anywhere else - they remained with Jesus knowing that no one else had the words of eternal life).
Yahweh says in His Word what happens to most multitudes on earth in most all the religious groups and out of all the religious groups. It is not pleasant at all, no, not at all.
It is Yahweh's Good Pleasure, as Jesus Says Clearly and Plainly, to REVEAL (revelation) Salvation to little children, as He Pleases, and to HIDE SALVATION from the educated ones, as He Pleases.
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Your distorting the text by saying God saves vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, which is contrasted with vessels of mercy who God prepared beforehand for glory. IF they are vessels of wrath, then they recieve wrath. Paul goes on to say God calls both jew and gentile, but not all jews and all gentiles.
The ones He is merciful towards, are those He calls. I wonder, do you believe God call all jews and all gentiles? God makes both types of persons from the same lump, He makes them the way they are.
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Your view tries to nullify scripture here. The decision is God's alone. God has chosen to not save all, some He has made for dishonor as vessels of His wrath.
You can not be both a vessel of wrath and also a vessel of mercy, you are one or the other.
Reread the parable of the wheat and tares. Tares do not turn into wheat, wheat does not turn into tares, each one is defined by their nature as to how God made them to be. If God did not change us by making us born again, we would all have been as vessels of wrath. The ones God does not change, do not change.
What the JEWS believed or believe is irrelevant to this. Paul is not trying to show anything, Paul tells us exactly how things are and why they are as they are. But I don't expect you to be agreeable.
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A tare is planted by Satan in God's field.
A wheat plant is planted by the Son in God's field. The Son does not plant tares as wheat, the Son creates us as new creatures in Christ, so all things are become NEW, the old is gone, the new has come, so they are not tares although formerly you might have thought of them as tares just looking at their outer appearance. But they were not children of wrath, they just looked like the children of wrath.
'just as the others' but we were not them. the others never are the wheat, they are always the tares, God wont be doing anything for them, they He did not foreknow as his family.
Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
The tares that Satan plants, the Son does not turn into wheat.
Satan can not turn wheat into tares.
If the Son has planted you as wheat then you remain that way. Jesus told His workers to let both tare and wheat grow together till harvest, then separate them, tares to be burned, wheat to be gathered.
If you say there was nothing special about those God foreknew as His, then you do not believe scripture. Scripture says those who will believe in Christ were specially chosen in verse 9 before time began.
2 Timothy 1:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
A wheat plant is planted by the Son in God's field. The Son does not plant tares as wheat, the Son creates us as new creatures in Christ, so all things are become NEW, the old is gone, the new has come, so they are not tares although formerly you might have thought of them as tares just looking at their outer appearance. But they were not children of wrath, they just looked like the children of wrath.
'just as the others' but we were not them. the others never are the wheat, they are always the tares, God wont be doing anything for them, they He did not foreknow as his family.
Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
The tares that Satan plants, the Son does not turn into wheat.
Satan can not turn wheat into tares.
If the Son has planted you as wheat then you remain that way. Jesus told His workers to let both tare and wheat grow together till harvest, then separate them, tares to be burned, wheat to be gathered.
If you say there was nothing special about those God foreknew as His, then you do not believe scripture. Scripture says those who will believe in Christ were specially chosen in verse 9 before time began.
2 Timothy 1:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
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- Sep 22, 2015
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2 Timothy 1 (NASB)
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner,
but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus (KNOWN) from all eternity,
10 but now has been REVEALED by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,
who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed;
for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him (BELIEF) until that day. (OF SALVATION)
13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me (GOSPEL), in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure (SALVATION) which has been entrusted to you.
God foreknows who will answer His CALL/DRAWING.
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner,
but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus (KNOWN) from all eternity,
10 but now has been REVEALED by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,
who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed;
for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him (BELIEF) until that day. (OF SALVATION)
13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me (GOSPEL), in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure (SALVATION) which has been entrusted to you.
God foreknows who will answer His CALL/DRAWING.
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Dorothy Mae
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Where do you get the idea God has a number he’s trying to achieve?
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Dorothy Mae
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How can grace be given to us before we were born? The grace was given to Christ if anyone and when we respond to God of our own free will, grace is then imparted to us through him. We are not chosen by name before time began.
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Chose for purpose, not salvation.
God chose Jacob for the lineage of the Messiah.
- whom, according to the flesh, Christ came
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the covenants, the promises; 5 whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5
God did not "hate" Esau in the sense that we use today.
Hate in the Hebrew thought means to love less.
To prefer the one over the other.
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters,yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26
God does not want us to "hate" our father or mother, but rather Jesus is saying to prefer Him and His calling over your parents and even your own life.
JLB
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Paul wasn't talking to modern man about the potter and the vessel. He was talking to persons that knew the O.T. and knew what he was talking about.
Romans 9 to 11 are not chapters about salvation, but about how God is going to let the Gentiles be grafted in because the Jews refused the Messiah.
You could study up on this.
My throat is dry.
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Dorothy Mae
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I was created by Him. I responded to His love. So we have a love relationship. It's sad that calvinists can't accept that God loves His creation. The church is even called the Lord's BRIDE. It's like a real marriage and love rapport.
Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God whokeeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations.
Psalm 136:26
Give thanks to the God of heaven, for his steadfast love endures forever.
1 John 4:7-8
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, becauseGod is love.
I go by God's standards, not Calvin's.
I go by what the bible tells me, not by what the Institutes tell me.
As to my posts, I do believe you're reading them wrongly.
As I've already stated, it's rather sad that you don't understand how much God loves His creation. You could learn about it if you abandon the institutes and start reading your bible, especially the N.T. Jesus was incarnated special for YOU, so that YOU could know God and know how much He loves YOU.
Mr. Calvin has you convinced that God is good only because He sends SOME to heaven. Think on that sometime when you have the inclination. A loving God does not send people to hell for no reason other than that He wants to.
As to the Jews, yes, they're special. God says so because He chose THEM to reveal Himself to the world. He made the covenants with THEM and not with the Gentiles. I feel priviledged to be grafted in to the VINE.
I feel priviledged to have been given the opportunity to be saved by Almighty God who is sovereign and loving and merciful.
I trust Him and know I can count on Him because I know He is a loving God and will dwell with all who desire it.
John 3:16
Revelation 3:20
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No. I'd like the answer from the other poster.
But yours is really good.
How about:
There's a train a comin'
All you have to do is climb aboard...
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Dorothy Mae
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Your question as phrased made me think of the song.No. I'd like the answer from the other poster.
But yours is really good.
How about:
There's a train a comin'
All you have to do is climb aboard...
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- Sep 22, 2015
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Oh, when the saints go marching in
I want to be in that number
When the saints go marching in
Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of (God) the (Holy) Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
I want to be in that number
When the saints go marching in
Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of (God) the (Holy) Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
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- Jun 25, 2018
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God's goodness
Point out where in the Bible it says that God owes you anything, and I'll start reading from that point.
Because something earned is not given its owed. So if you have the formula to put God under obligation then that's the part of the Bible I should start reading at.
The idea that everyone should abandon the Old Testament is a more modern invention and an entirely different topic of conversation which i will not address here other than to say if the Old Testament was good enough for Jesus then it should be good enough for Christians today as well.
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Jesus the God-Man fulfilled the OT with the NT in which He and the "New Covenant" are the central figures.
Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the (OT MOSAIC) Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the (OT MOSAIC) Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
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