Where was salvation and justification for sin before Jesus?

Duvduv

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You would think that this question would be explicitly addressed at least in one gospel and a letter or two of "Paul" but it isn't. No official Christian doctrine/dogma exists to explain how mankind obtained salvation and atonement before the first century when Christian doctrine says that Jesus existed. If salvation and atonement were attained without the sacrifice of one member of the so-called triune God, then logically God's eternal nature means it can be attained that way even after the first century.
 

amariselle

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You would think that this question would be explicitly addressed at least in one gospel and a letter or two of "Paul" but it isn't. No official Christian doctrine/dogma exists to explain how mankind obtained salvation and atonement before the first century when Christian doctrine says that Jesus existed. If salvation and atonement were attained without the sacrifice of one member of the so-called triune God, then logically God's eternal nature means it can be attained that way even after the first century.

Salvation has always been by faith in "the promise" (the Gospel) which was preached to Abraham. Jesus is "the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the earth." There is no other Name by which we are saved and no one comes to the Father but by Him. The Scriptures point to Christ. In times past, (in the OT) they looked forward to the promise, just as we now look forward to Christ's return. All who are saved are saved by Christ.
 
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Southernscotty

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You would think that this question would be explicitly addressed at least in one gospel and a letter or two of "Paul" but it isn't. No official Christian doctrine/dogma exists to explain how mankind obtained salvation and atonement before the first century when Christian doctrine says that Jesus existed. If salvation and atonement were attained without the sacrifice of one member of the so-called triune God, then logically God's eternal nature means it can be attained that way even after the first century.
Yes. It is still in Christ. God is Omnipotent. It is all by Grace friend.
 
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Duvduv

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How can Jesus be considered the lamb when he was not sacrificed and burnt on an altar? On the contrary, Christianity claims he was hung up on a cross or pole and then put into a cave and resurrected after 3 days. This has nothing to do with a sacrifice. Proving a concept is true cannot be accomplished by saying a concept is true. This is circular reasoning.
 
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Duvduv

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Yes. It is still in Christ. God is Omnipotent. It is all by Grace friend.
SoutherScotty, you are avoiding an answer to my question about salvation and atonement before there was a Jesus in the first century.
 
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Southernscotty

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SoutherScotty, you are avoiding an answer to my question about salvation and atonement before there was a Jesus in the first century.
No friend I did answer you. Jesus is the fulfilment of the law and everything. He is the final sacrifice the One perfect atonement for mankind that everyone that believes to have salvation.
It all points to the cross and the shed blood of the perfect Lamb of God. The only perfect One ever on earth.
 
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Duvduv

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No friend I did answer you. Jesus is the fulfilment of the law and everything. He is the final sacrifice the One perfect atonement for mankind that everyone that believes to have salvation.
It all points to the cross and the shed blood of the perfect Lamb of God. The only perfect One ever on earth.
Then please explain how this was accomplished for salvation and atonement for mankind since the original sin of Adam BEFORE the 1st century??
 
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Duvduv

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The Gospel of John mentions something about "the Word becoming Flesh." But if that was Jesus, then what was he doing in hiding before the 1st century CE?? He had had no "sacrifice" through crucifixion and resurrection before then, so there is something missing in the whole picture.
 
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JIMINZ

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You would think that this question would be explicitly addressed at least in one gospel and a letter or two of "Paul" but it isn't. No official Christian doctrine/dogma exists to explain how mankind obtained salvation and atonement before the first century when Christian doctrine says that Jesus existed. If salvation and atonement were attained without the sacrifice of one member of the so-called triune God, then logically God's eternal nature means it can be attained that way even after the first century.

.
Understand first.
Salvation as we (Christians) understand, and profess it to be, was not available, even to the Jews, before Jesus (The Messiah) to the Jews.

Heb. 9:13,14
13) For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:3,4
3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Gal. 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God:
for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 
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Southernscotty

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Hey friend I am back and this is the best answer I have found from Got Questions
Question: "How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?"

Answer:
Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection? What did they believe? Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins? Late in His ministry, “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21-22). What was the reaction of His disciples to this message? “Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’” Peter and the other disciples did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem. They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.

Today, we have more revelation than the people living before the resurrection of Christ; we know the full picture. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1-2). Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God. Today, for us, the content of our faith is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
 
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You would think that this question would be explicitly addressed at least in one gospel and a letter or two of "Paul" but it isn't. No official Christian doctrine/dogma exists to explain how mankind obtained salvation and atonement before the first century when Christian doctrine says that Jesus existed. If salvation and atonement were attained without the sacrifice of one member of the so-called triune God, then logically God's eternal nature means it can be attained that way even after the first century.

I would speculate that it was addressed by Paul et al, but that the comments on the matter were later redacted by the church during the heresy purge.
 
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Duvduv

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Unfortunately all the comparisons of Jesus to sacrifices are incorrect. Here are all the reasons:
1) A sacrifice is only good for the current period of people involved. It doesn't work backwards or forwards. Thus a Yom Kippur sacrifice only atones for the people who are around at that time.
2) No one ever claimed that mankind had an atonement by any particular sacrifice before Jesus was alleged to have lived in the first century. This is not discussed as doctrine anywhere in the NT. Thus whatever could be done by the omnipotent God before can be done after. There is no reason for the atonement of sacrifice. Thousands of years of mankind somehow got along without it even though they were sinners since Adam.
3) Jesus was not a sacrificial lamb in the NT. He was put on a cross and then placed in a tomb only to be resurrected after three days. This has nothing to do with any sacrificed that is slaughtered and burned up on the altar.
4) The importance of Jesus only applies because he gave atonement as one part of the triune God. Although according to the Gospel of John he was the "word made flesh," no one before the advent of the doctrine of the trinity knew about this or could have even benefited from it. According to John Jesus must have been in hiding until the first century and mankind got along just fine without an atonement, resurrection, justification and salvation.
 
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JIMINZ

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Unfortunately all the comparisons of Jesus to sacrifices are incorrect. Here are all the reasons:
1) A sacrifice is only good for the current period of people involved. It doesn't work backwards or forwards. Thus a Yom Kippur sacrifice only atones for the people who are around at that time.
2) No one ever claimed that mankind had an atonement by any particular sacrifice before Jesus was alleged to have lived in the first century. This is not discussed as doctrine anywhere in the NT. Thus whatever could be done by the omnipotent God before can be done after. There is no reason for the atonement of sacrifice. Thousands of years of mankind somehow got along without it even though they were sinners since Adam.
3) Jesus was not a sacrificial lamb in the NT. He was put on a cross and then placed in a tomb only to be resurrected after three days. This has nothing to do with any sacrificed that is slaughtered and burned up on the altar.
4) The importance of Jesus only applies because he gave atonement as one part of the triune God. Although according to the Gospel of John he was the "word made flesh," no one before the advent of the doctrine of the trinity knew about this or could have even benefited from it. According to John Jesus must have been in hiding until the first century and mankind got along just fine without an atonement, resurrection, justification and salvation.

.
Speaking out of your ignorance, you have managed to come up with some pretty unconvincing arguments.
 
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Undead

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It's apparent to me that you misunderstand dispensations.
Here goes guy--check it out:

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Before Jesus died on the cross, there was a place called hades that was a temporary heaven/hell with a huge gulf in the middle that divided it so that one could not cross to the other side -- either way. So no-- no one went to heaven. Even when we hear about the Chariot swinging low to pick up Elijah, or Enoch who was taken up--these went to the "heaven" side of hades. We also know there are different levels of heaven from other parts in Scripture. So Abraham followed the OT Law and Commandments and it was accounted as righteousness--but he did not go to heaven, because no man comes to the Father, except through the Son--so Abraham went to the heavenly side of hades (which was comprised of two parts)

No one had ascended to the actual heaven where the throneroom of God is, except the Son of man who is in heaven (this is yet another place Jesus was telling us that He was also the Father)
But when He died on the cross, He descended to Hades and preached the gospel to the saints of old--Moses, Noah and Abraham, etc.. and they looked up on the Messiah whom they had awaited for so long, and when He ascended He led captives in His wake (are you familiar with that Scripture?) (Psalm 68:18 and Ephesians 4:7-10)
----------------
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
-------------------

these now have ascended to heaven from the "heaven" side of hades, being first justified by the Law, now being made born-again by the Law of grace through faith in Jesus' death and substitution for their sins-- in this way the Scripture was fulfilled that says "No man comes to the Father except through the Son" How else could these people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have gone to the Father before the death of the Son? But Jesus came to set the prisoners free-- what else could this be referring to except that which I just described to you--do we read anywhere in the NT where Jesus went to a jail and set the captives free? No, this was talking about hades--particularly the "heavenly" side of hades.

Do some more studying on hades, and the gulf that divided it-- and Jesus leading captives in His wake when He ascended-- I cannot give you all the easy answers.. some you have to study on your own.
That's hopefully settled now.
 
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Undead

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I don't know if this helps your questions or not, but there is this:

"
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus that is found in Luke 16:19-31 gives us the record of a remarkable conversation that took place in Hades between the Rich Man and Abraham. Obviously, these two men could not have had this conversation at all if Sheol/Hades is only a place where dead bodies are buried. First, there could be no communication between lifeless, decaying corpses and second, Abraham’s body, which was buried in the cave of Machpelah over 1800 years earlier, had long since decayed. Also, the rich man’s body, regardless of whether it had decayed or not, would not have been buried in the burial cave of Abraham. From the context, it is obvious that these men were in the place of departed souls rather than a burial place.

There are some that contend that this is a parable that never actually took place and deny that it could have ever taken place. To these, who usually hold to a position of soul-sleep or the eradication of the soul at death, we answer; the Lord said that it did take place. Besides, as we have already pointed out, a parable by definition is a “true to life” story. To have meaning, it must be a story that could have actually taken place whether it ever did or not.

DEATH AND SHEOL
Death and Sheol/Hades are linked together at least thirty-three times in the Scriptures. In these, we see a general distinction between the “outward man,” which is the body and the “inward man,” which is the soul (cf. II Cor. 4:16). In this sense, death, or the grave, claims the physical part of man, the body, while Sheol/Hades claims the separated, spiritual part of man, the soul. This is exactly the meaning of Psalm 16:10: “For Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell (Sheol); neither will Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.” In his Pentecostal address, Peter left no room for doubt that this was a prophetic pronouncement concerning the time between the Lord Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross and His resurrection. First, he quoted Psalm 16:8-11 (Acts 2:25-28) and then made direct application of verse 10 to Christ (Acts 2:31). Not only was the Lord Jesus’ soul not left in Sheol/Hades, but neither was His body left to rot in the grave. That Peter used Hades, the place of Sheol, in this quotation shows that they are identical in meaning.

Of course, the Lord Jesus Christ is exceptional because He had the power not only to lay down His life on our behalf, but also to take it up again (Jn. 10:17,18). This is not so of any other man, as the Psalmist points out when he asks, rhetorically, “What man is he that liveth and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave (Sheol)?” (Ps. 89:48). Because of the curse of sin, all of mankind faces the reality of physical death. None can evade it by their own power, nor can any man or woman escape from Sheol/Hades on their own. We know that since the Cross the souls of those who die “in Christ” do not go to Sheol/Hades, but to heaven. However, this is through the merit of Jesus Christ and His power, not their own. For those “in Christ,” death has no sting and Sheol/Hades has no victory because their body and soul will be united in a resurrection unto life (see I Cor. 15:19,20,51-57). This is as certain as the fact of Jesus Christ’s resurrection. This is not so for those who die without Christ for they face a resurrection unto judgment, which is referred to as the “second death” (Rev. 20:13,14; 21:8)."

Source:
https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/hell-sheol-hades-paradise-and-the-grave/

^There is a whole bunch of other info on this page--you should click the link and check it out
 
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