If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

Anto9us

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2Ti 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
2Ti 4:11
Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
2Ti 4:12
And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus.

Unlike Hymenaeus and Alexander in my earlier post -- these co-workers of Paul in 2 Timothy 4:10-12 shared in Paul's work - only Demas is castigated for falling away - the others are just mentioned as to their whereabouts
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Key word: unbelieving. See my post above.#58
I think you got mixed up.

When did gentiles , un-natural branches, enemies of Yahweh, get grafted in ? ( hint: NOT while they were living in unbelief, NOT while they were NOT trusting Yahweh )
 
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Staywithme

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Hope this found you well?
The precise reason why our heavenly Father gave out His only Son was (
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,John:3:15). The word " whosoever" clearly show how beautiful God's kingdom is ruled by love and through this love He had given room for all His creatures to worship Him with unconditional love, paying a willingly reverence without being skeptical through this☝️you will see how the salvation is free and unconstrained.
But the main reason why it can't be free to leave the moment you are on board beacuse God will do everything and anything not to see you ( perishing) but rather having eternal life..Amen.
 
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Anto9us

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I reject BOTH of the "Got Answers" interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 as being eisogesis and tap-dancing, a stretch to try to preserve an OSAS doctrine at all costs - that's what eisogesis IS - start with a pre-conceived theological position (OSAS in this case) and MAKE scripture fit it; even if, as in Got Answers' attempt -- they take two diametrically opposed sets of presuppositions and try to make them BOTH preach OSAS.

Not gonna buy it.

REAL PEOPLE in the NEW TESTAMENT did indeed 'fall away' -- Judas, Ananias and Saphira, Demas -- the "never were saved to begin with" card doesn't hold water for anybody but Judas.

Hebrews 6:6 is NOT 'hypothetical' - there are people this ACTUALLY HAPPENNED TO - WILD OLIVE BRANCHES BEING broken off MEANS THEY WERE ATTACHED TO THE TREE AT ONE TIME, RIGHT?

Why would it be warned that wild olive branches could be lopped off IF IT COULDN'T HAPPEN?
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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They knew as much about Christianity as my pet goldfish....they were never in the Body of Christ.....that’s what matters......people do not choose Christianity like they would a brand of soap....” anybody can come, but no one comes lest the Spirit call him”...... they were fooled, God does the choosing......

Scripture doesn't back the view up that everyone who falls away from faith really just 'didn't know' much about Jesus or was never in the body of Christ. I go through many such scriptures in depth in post #39, so I will not repeat it all, but here are some highlights that directly refute your theory:

Heb 6:1-6:

Heb 6:5-8 warns of the case of Christians who had seen the light (II Cor 4:6), ate of the heavenly gift (John 6:33), shared in the Holy Spirit (I Cor 12:13, II Peter 1:4, Eph 3:6, Heb 3:14, Col 1:12, Phil 1:7, Eph 4:4, etc), tasted the goodness of the word of God (Psalm 38:4) shared in spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:4), and repented (Acts 2:38), but then fell away.

Clearly, some who have who partook in the Holy Spirit (literally, changed after sharing - something only Christians who have received the Spirit and resultant new life can do) have fallen away. There is no hypothetical about this falling away - the Greek is clear that they did fall away. If these people were not once Christians in the body of Christ, then none of us could rightly be called Christians!

See also:
[Question: What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?
See Answer: What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?]

I Tim 4:1:

"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

It's hard to get more explicit than something the Spirit explicitly says! Depart here in the Greek does mean to withdraw or leave from something you were once a part of. 'The faith' here is defined in the verses just before - that Jesus was seen by the world and believed in - so the interpretation that this verse must just mean a shallow profession of outward faith is a far harder meaning to pull from the text as there is no context to support it.

See also:
[ What does it mean in 1 Tim 4:1 that 'some will depart from faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits?']

Luke 8:13
"Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

This explanation of the parable of the sower, in Jesus' words, means that some people *can* believe (have faith) for a while but later fall away! There is nothing in the passage to restrict this to fake believing or mere head knowledge. They welcomed the word with ready reception and trusted in Christ. However, they did not stay rooted in Christ. They didn't abide in Christ so as to continually suck up nutrients from the root - so when hardship came they abandoned the faith and returned to the world.

II Pet 2:20-22

"For if, having escaped the corruption of the world by truly knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have truly known the way of righteousness, than to have truly known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

The Greek word epignosis refers here to the relational/experiential knowledge Christians have with Christ, not mere book knowledge. It is unambiguous that they once had faith. Furthermore, mere head knowledge or distorted knowledge of Christ would not be enough to escape the corruption of the world - one would need faith and the indwelling Spirit for that.



"anybody can come, but no one comes lest the Spirit call him" is not in scripture, so I am not sure why you put that phrase in quotes. Perhaps you meant, "No one can come unless the Father draw Him?" (Jn 6:44) This is true, but we see in Jn 12:32 that Jesus draws all men by His death. That is how the Father draws, through Christ, as it is His will that anyone who looks to the revealed Son and believes be raised up on the last day (Jn 6:40.)

On your last comment, scripture never claims that God chooses some people to *have faith.* Rather, God chooses that *those with faith be part of His people* (Eph 1:1-14 and other passages.)

[What does it really mean by "God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy"?
How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?
Are we predestined to know Christ?]
 
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Anto9us

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This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9).

Did Stephen only Taste death MOMENTARILY?
How about Jesus? 3 days is MOMENTARILY?
IN the Bible - TASTE DEATH means you DIE - not have some 'near death experience'...

To try to equate “tasted the heavenly gift” in Hebrews 6 to Jesus tasting death in Hebrews 2 is apples and oranges.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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"If GOD broke off the unbelieving natural branches, what makes you think he won't break off the unbelieving unnatural branches?"
1:
keyword = broke off

Meaning - USED TO BE PART OF THE TREE, but not any more
In the parables of the wheat and the tares, and sheep and goats. Lord Jesus points out that unbelievers will be together with believers, but Lord Jesus does not want us try to separate them, but He will separate at the proper time. These are in our church services but they are not saved.
2Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
 
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Anto9us

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2Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If our "calling and election" was as SURE as OSAS-believers say it is - why would we need to be DILIGENT to MAKE IT sure ?

"In the parables of the wheat and the tares, and sheep and goats."
Two completely different parables, neither of which deals with OSAS vs OSnAS
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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If our "calling and election" was as SURE as OSAS-believers say it is - why would we need to be DILIGENT to MAKE IT sure ?
.
Make sure you are saved. Make sure you are sealed. This is so hard to explain. But Jesus said to Nicodemus you must be born again. You must be born of the Holy Spirit. People make fun of us when we say you must be baptized in the Holy Ghost.But until you are, you have not been born of the Holy Spirit. It is when you know that you know that you know He is living in you.
Two completely different parables, neither of which deals with OSAS vs OSnAS

Maybe in your mind. But they do show true and false.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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If you think about it, if is a free gift from God in which if one confesses with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord, and they turn from their sins, they will be saved, according to Romans 10:9-11, why cant them loosing Salvation also be an option if they choose to openly denounce their faith and God and they no longer feel the need to follow God and die unrepentant in their sins.

Think how many atheists you see on line religious forums or social media, states how they used to be devout Christians, until they opened their eyes and either saw the bible as nonsense or the idea of a God itself to be false as well with all that goes on in the world and they denounce their faith and do as they please and many die in that state. Would we say, that atheist is going to Heaven because they spouted a few words when they were 13yrs old in church, despite his future free will choice as an adult to walk away from God.

Saan, on the one hand, all of us have the responsibility to trust in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection and to turn away from our sinful rebellion against God. That's why the good news must be offered to all. On the other hand, a believer's inner turning from self-centered sinfulness to a God-centered life is all God's free work. The reason is, according to Paul in Ephesians 2:1-10, that we are spiritually stillborn to God when we enter this world. We can't make ourselves alive physically, neither can we create the new birth.

Thus, with the first part of your question about our free choice, ultimately we are born slaves to Satan and dead to God, who must make us alive to him. When he does that miracle in true believers, it's permanent, regardless of the remnants of our self-centeredness that are left. As a result, the second part of your question cannot happen either. It's all God's free gift by grace through his free gift of faith with his creation of our good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). I hope this answer helps your curiosity.

Salvation is all to God's credit, not at all to ours. I don't believe in judging whether people are Christians by outward appearances and actions, because only God knows their heart-conditions.
 
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John tower

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If you think about it, if is a free gift from God in which if one confesses with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord, and they turn from their sins, they will be saved, according to Romans 10:9-11, why cant them loosing Salvation also be an option if they choose to openly denounce their faith and God and they no longer feel the need to follow God and die unrepentant in their sins.

Think how many atheists you see on line religious forums or social media, states how they used to be devout Christians, until they opened their eyes and either saw the bible as nonsense or the idea of a God itself to be false as well with all that goes on in the world and they denounce their faith and do as they please and many die in that state. Would we say, that atheist is going to Heaven because they spouted a few words when they were 13yrs old in church, despite his future free will choice as an adult to walk away from God.
John 15(16)
 
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Anto9us

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2Pe 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

That is who Peter is addressing in this chapter that goes on to say 'give diligence to make your calling and election sure' -- he is not addressing SEEKERS, OR those JUST CURIOUS about Christ -- he is talking about ALREADY SAVED PEOPLE!
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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I am going to give you Got Questions answer here as I like it.
Question: "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

Answer:
Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

The GotQuestions answer starts with a bias - that the passage 'can't mean' that a former believer can reject faith and hence lose salvation. That bias becomes very apparent in the hoops it jumps through to ignore the actual Greek text and force it's own interpretations onto it.

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

[/QUOTE]

This interpretation is unsustainable and does severe damage to the actual text, context, and parallel scriptures. While some (not all) Greek terms in the passage can have a range of meanings, context limits these. And when some explicit terms which can only accurately describe Christians are used, with no contextual reason given to restrict other terms, then it makes no sense to restrict some terms to non-Christians and then just ignore the explicit ones.

Briefly, with parallel scriptures given to show that taken together these terms must refer to former Christians: These Christians had seen the light (II Cor 4:6), ate of the heavenly gift (John 6:33), were made partakers in the Holy Spirit (I Cor 12:13, II Peter 1:4, Eph 3:6, Heb 3:14, Col 1:12, Phil 1:7, Eph 4:4, etc), tasted the goodness of the word of God (Psalm 38:4) shared in spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:4), and repented (Acts 2:38), but then fell away.

If only the phrase 'seen the light' was used, then maybe it could be argued that only non-Christians were meant. However, the explicit term 'were made partakers of the Holy Spirit' was used - which circumvents any attempt to make this apply to non-Christians. Literally, the Greek term métoxos means to share in with change afterward, that is change due to sharing. The term right before is genēthentas - showing that they were given a new birth and transitioned from one state to another! Are unbelievers made partakers of the Holy Spirit, transitioning to a new life and changing due to the indwelling Spirit? Of course not!

Another explicit term the passage uses is 'having fallen away.' This is the Greek parapiptó, which explicitly refers to falling away from something you were a close participant in - not something you were merely close to joining.

From help word studies:

"3895 parapíptō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 4098 /píptō, "to fall") – properly, fall away, after being close-beside; to defect (abandon).
3895 /parapíptō ("fallen from a close position") refers to a close-follower of Christ who becomes a defector. It suggests this person (at least at one time) was a believer (note the para). 3895 (parapíptō) is only used in Heb 6:6."

Taken all together in context, with parallel scripture, and with the two explicit Greek terms used which cannot apply to unbelievers, it is clear the passage is describing people who were once Christians.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

This interpretation is even more absurd than the last. Why? Because it makes up a word that isn't in the Greek, and isn't even implied in the Greek! There is no "if" in Heb 6:6 or attached at the end of 5. If you are reading an English translation that inserts an 'if' into the verse, know that it is an addition by translators and not found in any ancient Greek manuscript.

Go check for yourself: Hebrews 6:6 Greek Text Analysis

The manuscripts have the phrase "Kai parapesontas" - this translates "And having fallen away" or "And then having fallen away." There is nothing hypothetical about it, nor anyway to pull a hypothetical from it. Quite the opposite - the grammar is incredibly explicit that these people *did* fall away even as they had once shared in the Spirit.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6confirms that doctrine.

Both of the interpretations GotQuestions presents due support the Calvinist theory of eternal security - but as I went through, they violate the scripture in order to prop up that man-made theory. Here, though, he finally gives some support verses that refer to eternal life - but do these support verses actually show that someone cannot lose faith? Let's briefly examine them:

John 10:27-29: No proof here. This shows that Jesus *actively* gives eternal life to His sheep who *actively* follow Him. The Father *actively gives* these sheep to Jesus. Eternal life is an ongoing state conditional on their continual hearing him and accompanying Him. This doesn't prove a once and done eternal life wherein they can never stop following Him. The Greek verbs are very important here: hear, know, give, accompany, they are present active indicatives.

Romans 8:35, 38-39; No proof here. These verses only talk about the inability of outside powers, beings, and hardships from taking away our salvation. It says nothing to whether or not we can reject faith, and subsequently renounce salvation ourselves.

Philippians 1:6; No proof here. This just says that Paul is confident that Jesus will continue the work He began in us and continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus - true for anyone remaining in Christ/in the vine who grows in Christ (II Pet 1:3-11) and bears fruit. This good work in us begins after we place our faith in Christ, not before, so this verse cannot be referring to Jesus completing our faith. And in context, it's about Jesus being faithful to work in us - not a teaching that we will automatically remain faithful to Him.

1 Peter 1:4-5: No proof here. This verse says that we (believers) have a future inheritance reserved for us, a salvation that will be revealed in the last days. This future salvation is conditional, however - it is only those who are protected by the power of God through faith. So far from demanding that God's power keep us in the faith, this shows that God's power protects us through our faith. Obviously if we cease having faith, we are no longer protected by that power and cannot claim the reserved inheritance or promised salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6: No proof here. This passage, as we just went through, unambiguously shows that some people were once Christians with the Holy Spirit, but then fell away.
 
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That is who Peter is addressing in this chapter that goes on to say 'give diligence to make your calling and election sure' -- he is not addressing SEEKERS, OR those JUST CURIOUS about Christ -- he is talking about ALREADY SAVED PEOPLE!
He is addressing the Roman congregation.As I have said before unbelievers hang out in our congregations.That is why he said what he said.The believers heard him, likewise the unbelievers heard him. So if any were there that were not sure, they had the opportunity to receive the Holy Spirit into themselves. People say it happens automatically. Well scripture shows that there are people who have gotten baptized and confessed Christ but have not received the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 
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aiki

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Scripture doesn't support that, however. First, the 'seal of the Holy Spirit' is not a seal that enforces us to remain in Christ. It's a legal term. The seal marks God's authority and guarantee that He will keep the future promises of the covenant at the judgement - it's not a rope that forces us to stay in the covenant. (For example, the seal on Jesus' tomb didn't physically increase the security of the tomb. Rather, it was the mark of Roman authority that anyone tampering with the tomb/body would be subject to death.)

"And in Him (in Christ) you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, having heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we (those in Christ) acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13-14

The seal doesn't make us be in Christ, nor does it make us remain in Christ. It's a guarantee that those in Christ will inherit the future promises such as new spiritual bodies, a place in God's kingdom, etc.) This passage itself and others on the seal of the Spirit shed no light on whether those who start in Christ can reject Christ later.

The Holy Spirit does more than merely "seal" us, of course. He also "washes" us and regenerates us spiritually (Titus 3:5). He is the Source of the believer's spiritual life (Romans 8: 10-11), the means of the believer's second birth. He it is who transforms the believer, making the believer a "new creature in Christ" in whom "old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17) As I said, being a believer isn't merely about obtaining some new spiritual possession (eternal life, membership in God's kingdom, forgiveness of sin, etc.) but about an exchange - one's old self-centered life for a new life centered upon Christ - and a resulting fundamental alteration in who one is. This spiritual metamorphosis is not accomplished by the will of men but by the will and power of God. And what He has done, no man can undo.

Second, scripture does not show that either being redeemed or receiving new life in Christ means that that person cannot reject Christ and return to slavery to sin and the world.

Yes, actually, it does:

John 10:28-29
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.


Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

And so on. You see, our salvation is not us-contingent, but Christ-contingent. He is our salvation; we are not.

Heb 6:1-6:

Heb 6:5-8 warns them of the case of Christians who had seen the light (II Cor 4:6), ate of the heavenly gift (John 6:33), shared in the Holy Spirit (I Cor 12:13, II Peter 1:4, Eph 3:6, Heb 3:14, Col 1:12, Phil 1:7, Eph 4:4, etc), tasted the goodness of the word of God (Psalm 38:4) shared in spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:4), and repented (Acts 2:38), but then fell away.

Well, here you are imposing upon the passage an already existing presupposition: One can lose one's salvation. But the passage does not have to be read through such a lens.

Hebrews 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Enlightened to what degree? Can unbelievers be enlightened to the truth of the Gospel? Of course. They can understand very well the claims of the Gospel and even accept them - intellectually - as true. (I have an unsaved friend who is exactly this way.) Are they necessarily spiritually-regenerated by the superficial, mind-level enlightenment they possess? No. (See James 2:19) And as the writer of Hebrews explains, this is a problem.

What do we make of the term "tasted"? Does it communicate a wholehearted acceptance of the Gospel? Not hardly! Typically, "tasted" carries the idea of having "sampled" something. Can a person "sample" the heavenly gift (aka Christ in the Person of the Holy Spirit) without being saved? Sure. Every time an unbeliever is audience to the work of the Spirit among God's people or in the life of a lost person, he "tastes" the goodness of God and His power to change lives. But this tasting does not equate to salvation any more than tasting a pizza means you ate the whole thing.

What does it mean to be a "partaker" of the Holy Spirit?

from (metecho); participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate :- fellow, partaker, partner. (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.)

Must "partaker" be read as "spiritually-regenerated"? Well, neither "enlightened" nor "tasted" require such a construction of meaning. It seems quite possible to me that a lost person could partake in the Spirit, that is, share in His work and experience His power (though only in a second-hand way), simply by participating in the life of the Church, as many unsaved "tares" do. Does partnering with the Spirit in this secondary sort of way mean a person is saved? No. It seems to me, then, that the reader of this verse is not forced - except by a saved-and-lost presupposition - to understand that the verse is speaking of a saved person.

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Here are two things "tares" in the Church do on regular basis. They taste of God's word and experience His power at work in and through His Church without being saved.

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Does this verse demand the view that the "falling away" is from salvation? No. An unsaved "tare" may "fall away" from their proximity to the saving truth of the Gospel and participation in the life of the Church, and from a life that is, at least in its outward appearance, adhering to the teachings and example of Christ. Doing so puts the lost person well and truly beyond the pale. Having totally forsaken all association with the things of Christ and his Bride, such a person is fatally inoculated against repentance that leads to salvation.

John 15:1-8 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every
branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you
are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw
them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


What is the main thrust of this passage? Fruitfulness as a consequence of abiding in Christ.

“Every branch that bears not fruit He takes away...”

“Every branch that bears fruit He prunes it that it may bring forth more fruit.”

“The branch cannot bear fruit of itself...”

“He who abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit...”

“...bear much fruit.”

Why is the unfruitful branch “taken away” and “cast into the fire”? Is the branch being judged and punished? No. Consider the following Scripture concerning the unfruitful vine:

Ezekiel 15:1-5 (NKJV)
1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2 "Son of man, how is the wood of the vine
better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can
men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on?
4 Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for
any work?
5 Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it. How much less will it be useful for
any work when the fire has devoured it, and it is burned?

John 15:1-6 is concerned with the means to spiritual fruitfulness, not with teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine. The branches cast into the fire picture the utter spiritual uselessness of unfruitful branches, not of salvation lost. A vine is only useful when it is fruitful. Likewise, a believer who is not abiding in Christ cannot be spiritually fruitful and is, consequently, useless. That is the teaching of this passage.
 
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aiki

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1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.


If I depart from my house, is it no longer my house? Obviously not. Since no man's salvation is dependent upon his resolve, or effort, or will, his departing from the faith does not make him un-born spiritually. See the Parable of the Prodigal Son. His departure from his father never dissolved his relationship to his father. However far he went from his father and however awfully he lived, he was always his father's son.

Luke 8:13
"Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

This explanation of the parable of the sower, in Jesus' words, means that some people *can* believe (have faith) for a while but later fall away! There is nothing in the passage to restrict this to fake believing or mere head knowledge.

Look at how the joyful hearer is described: the seed had not rooted in him. How this equates to "he was saved" is beyond me. Not all belief saves. Again, see James 2:19. The joyful hearer illustrates that a positive emotional response to the Gospel does not necessarily mean one is born again.

II Pet 2:20-22
"For if, having escaped the corruption of the world by truly knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have truly known the way of righteousness, than to have truly known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

We see here former Christians - people who had escaped the corruption of the world! This first escape was only possible because they had true knowledge of Christ (not mere head knowledge) - the Greek word epignosis refers here to the relational/experiential knowledge Christians have with Christ, not mere book knowledge. They didn't just 'know about' Jesus and practice a few morals - they had a relationship with Christ which helped them escape the lusts of the flesh. But the, they returned to the corruption of the world! This latter state was worse than their former state of unbelief! After being washed and sanctified by the blood of Christ, they returned to washing in the mid of sin.

Nope.

This is a favorite passage among SAL folk for promoting the idea that a saved person may lose their salvation. But, again, they are typically imposing a pre-supposed doctrinal view on what is written. Their thinking goes: How does one escape the pollution of the World but by being saved? Of course, the passage does not ever use the word “salvation,” or “regenerated,” or “saved,” or “converted,” or the phrase “born-again,” - terminology common to discussion of salvation in other places in the New Testament - but instead describes only those who have gained a knowledge (Gk. - recognize, acknowledge, “know upon some mark”) of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This is strongly suggestive, not of a truly converted person, but of one who has only an intellectual apprehension of the nature and salvific work of Christ.

What, then, did Peter mean by “escaped the pollutions of the World”? Well, he wrote in chapter 2 specifically of false teachers and it is these false teachers to whom he was referring when he wrote of those who had escaped the pollutions of the World by a knowledge of the Saviour only to be entangled in them again. Nothing in Peter's description of false teachers in chapter 2 of his second letter suggests he thought they were genuinely born-again. Their “escape from the pollutions of the world” was not internal, spiritual and genuine, but external and false. Their associations with the Church would necessarily require some outward separation from the World; they could not rise as teachers within the Church otherwise. They are in this respect like those Paul described as “having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.” (2 Ti. 3:5) Outwardly they appear to have forsaken the World and its pollutions but inwardly they are in bondage to sin, “having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.” (2 Pe. 2:14)
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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We believe what scripture says about them

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Scripture is harmonious. I've listed many passages already, and others have too, in this thread which clearly and unambiguously show that people can, and some have, start in faith but then fall away. (Post #39, Post #66, etc.)

If I Jn 2:19 proved that people could not start in faith but later fall away, then scripture would contradict itself.

However, it doesn't say that. When examining a text, it's important not to 'read beyond' it implications or doctrine which it doesn't teach.

I Jn 2:18-28 "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming."

Far from saying that failure to remain in the faith is impossible, the passage exhorts believers several times to "remain in Him" and "continue in Him." In fact, it goes so far as to show that our remaining in the Father and Son is conditional on our faith (the gospel message remaining in us.)

So what does it mean that they didn't belong, and if they had belonged they would have remained? Well, who is the 'us' in the passage? The body of Christ, the church! How do we become part of the body of Christ? By faith! The passage says they were not truly part of the body of Christ when they left, otherwise they would have remained. Physical fellowship in the church doesn't signal spiritual fellowship. If they had truly had faith and the spirit, they would have maintained their physical/visible fellowship in the church. But they left the church, showing they weren't spiritually part of the body of Christ. That doesn't say/mean that they could have never once been a part of the spiritual body of Christ through faith in the past! Rather, it means that those who left physical fellowship had already departed spiritually, and conversely that those who are spiritually part of the body of Christ will continue fellowship with the saints (Heb 10:25)
 
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Anto9us

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He is addressing exactly who he says he is addressing:
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
that is NOT 'unbelievers' -- that is those who HAVE OBTAINED (past tense) LIKE PRECIOUS FAITH WITH US

Handmaid, you seem to dwell on two things --
1. that there are UNBELIEVERS mixed in with believers everywhere - that may well be true; but Peter was specifically addressing believers
2. that there are baptized people (in water) that have not received the Holy Spirit - for sure that no doubt happens; it does not 'happen automatically', I agree.
For me, being immersed and being baptized in the Holy Ghost was about a year apart.
But there were some in the New Testament who got the Ghost FIRST - and then Peter said "Can any now refuse water baptism to them, seeing as how the Holy Ghost has fallen on them like it did on us at the beginning?"
And some had "only John's baptism" and needed to get the Ghost later

But these things are not really relevant to OSAS vs OSnAS, in fact, tasting of the powers of the world to come could be taken as already having the Holy Spirit -- yet still caution is against falling away.
 
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