Reaching perfection

To better understand the English word "perfect", we need to know that in the Greek the word denotes "complete" and not "without fault" as we understand the word "perfect". Therefore, I understand that is possible to be "complete" in Christ.

Valetic said:

I wouldn't quote me on this but I have the feeling that if such a state of being did exist in this day in time that you would just be whisked away to heaven the way Elijah or Philip were.

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Philip? I'm not familiar with that passage.

faroukfarouk said:

It's good to distinguish between justification - a judicial act received by faith - and sanctification, which has both its positional and conditional aspects. Blurring the two doctrines can lead to a lot of confusion.

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I agree--that is why I was careful to make my post about sanctification--because many people do confuse the two. We are judged "not guilty" through our acceptance of the free gift provided by our Savior. But we are continuously sanctified throughout the rest of our lives by the work of the Holy Spirit within us. We gain complete sanctification when we step through the veil.

LadyCrosstalk said:

I agree--that is why I was careful to make my post about sanctification--because many people do confuse the two. We are judged "not guilty" through our acceptance of the free gift provided by our Savior. But we are continuously sanctified throughout the rest of our lives by the work of the Holy Spirit within us. We gain complete sanctification when we step through the veil.

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Yes, I agree indeed. Peter also says :'Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ'; for the believer, this relates doctrinally more to ongoing sanctification than it does to the already settled justification by faith.

faroukfarouk said:

Yes, I agree indeed. Peter also says :'Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ'; for the believer, this relates doctrinally more to ongoing sanctification than it does to the already settled justification by faith.

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Complete sanctification at death is probably also what the Apostle Paul meant when he said, "but when the perfect comes..." (1 Corinthians 13:10).

LadyCrosstalk said:

Complete sanctification at death is probably also what the Apostle Paul meant when he said, "but when the perfect comes..." (1 Corinthians 13:10).

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Some commentaries also interpret the phrase as referring to the completion of the canon of Scripture.

enigmadi said:

Philip? I'm not familiar with that passage.

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Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

I'm sorry Philip was translated to another location not taken up to Heaven. I thought someone else was though...

Edit: It was Enoch and Elijah.

faroukfarouk said:

Some commentaries also interpret the phrase as referring to the completion of the canon of Scripture.

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I would respectfully disagree with them--it is pretty clear that, in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul was speaking of the "sanctification of love and truth" provided by the Holy Spirit, throughout the life of a saint. I suppose the scholars came to believe that there was no more need for prophecy, tongues and knowledge when the canon of Scripture was completed. But, one reason why the churches in the Western nations are weak is that the voice of prophecy has been stilled. As long as the Church, the Bride of Christ, is on the earth, we will need prophecy, which, as we know, is "to give a clear witness for Jesus Christ". (Revelation 19:10) Because unbelieving "scholars" have mucked around with the meaning of Scripture, there is confusion. What we need is "believing scholarship" which Charles Haddon Spurgeon declared as a need for the Church in his time. God doesn't care how many theology degrees anyone has. If they don't know and love Him, the Scriptures are closed to them. Only the Holy Spirit "leads to all truth" among God's children--and Paul tells us in Romans 8:9, that unless we have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, we are not even Christians--that is, believers. The primary question which all believers must answer for themselves is, "Have I received the Holy Spirit?" See also 2 Corinthians 13:5. Paul appeared to be quite anxious to ascertain that a "believer" had received the Holy Spirit.

LadyCrosstalk said:

I would respectfully disagree with them--it is pretty clear that, in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul was speaking of the "sanctification of love and truth" provided by the Holy Spirit, throughout the life of a saint. I suppose the scholars came to believe that there was no more need for prophecy, tongues and knowledge when the canon of Scripture was completed. But, one reason why the churches in the Western nations are weak is that the voice of prophecy has been stilled. As long as the Church, the Bride of Christ, is on the earth, we will need prophecy, which, as we know, is "to give a clear witness for Jesus Christ". (Revelation 19:10) Because unbelieving "scholars" have mucked around with the meaning of Scripture, there is confusion. What we need is "believing scholarship" which Charles Haddon Spurgeon declared as a need for the Church in his time. God doesn't care how many theology degrees anyone has. If they don't know and love Him, the Scriptures are closed to them. Only the Holy Spirit "leads to all truth" among God's children--and Paul tells us in Romans 8:9, that unless we have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, we are not even Christians--that is, believers. The primary question which all believers must answer for themselves is, "Have I received the Holy Spirit?" See also 2 Corinthians 13:5. Paul appeared to be quite anxious to ascertain that a believer had received the Holy Spirit.

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Well I think we come from different local church backgrounds.

I do love C H Spurgeon's writings.

Southernscotty said:

No friend, I heard loud and clear. He stated that there is a place of complete and finished sanctification here on earth. Where there is no longer any sin.

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Nazarene Church?
Methodist?

These 2, and others, have a faulty doctrine of "entire sanctification" within their "stated core beliefs".

Fortunately we have a NT that tells us, the born again, who are seated in heavenly placed, "in Christ", that Jesus Himself IS OUR redemption, sanctification, Justification.

God accepts us, based on Christ Alone, = and His redeeming blood that He shed SO THAT God will accept us.

God does not, and never will, accept any person, based on their LIFESTYLE.

If you are not born again, then you can present your body a living sacrifice, and you can mortify your members until KINGDOM COME< and you are just as unsaved as the worst hell bound sinner who ever lived or will ever live.

Here is how you understand Salvation :

Romans : 3:21- 28

Romans 4: 5

Titus 3:5

Southernscotty said:

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

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I have always wondered why being perfect or sinless is a goal for anyone. Is the root of this a kind of pride? My suspecion is this, anyone who reaches a state of sinlessness or perfection will not being thinking of their state of their sanctification AT ALL. Their focus will hardly be on themselves and certainly not how great/perfect/sinless they are. The closer one comes to God, to being like Jesus, the less on thinks of oneself. That is what I would expect of someone who is perfect. They won't know it and won't be thinking about it. Why? Because this is a point of spiritual pride, the worst kind of pride.

As a Methodist, I understand sanctification not as absolute sinless perfection (which John Wesley did not believe in either), but perfection in one's love for God and others which is at the heart of sanctification. This is not based on works, but based on grace through faith. Those of the Reformed and Lutheran traditions reject this view, but it is found in the writings of the early church fathers and in Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Christian perfection - Wikipedia

Philippians 3:12 tells just the opposite to the pastor's conclusion because of the context, which is crucial to interpreting any verse. Paul says plainly that he's not perfect yet. Well, if the apostle who suffered greatly in establishing many churches wasn't perfect yet, I'm not going to claim it. In fact, I believe that if we get to the place where we feel we are perfect, we may be guilty of the sin of pride.

I once met a young woman who thought that she was perfect. I asked her, "Do you ever get impatient about life?" She evaded my question. When we think that we have arrived spiritually, God often allows circumstances to humble us, as with Paul's thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:1-10).

The context of Philippians 3:12 shows that we are in a race toward perfection that ends with the resurrection of our bodies at the last day, "I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead" (3:10, 11--NIV). You see that these verses before your pastor's text teach the opposite of his interpretation of the following verse. Always read the whole chapter and sometimes the whole book of any verse to determine its meaning.

Perfectionism often deals with outward actions more than inner emotions and thoughts. But we can ask such people if they love all their enemies (Matt. 5:43-48) and if they are joyful, prayerful, and thankful all the time (1 Thess. 5:16-18), teachings of Jesus and Paul that are our goals.

Perfection is our goal, but these bodies with our sinful natures prevent us from attaining it in this life.

Reviewing some other comments, I believe we might be confusing declared right standing before the Judge of the universe with actual righteousness, which is our responsibility to strive for with the power of Jesus' victory on the cross. God our Judge says that we are perfect in his sight because of Jesus' perfection (justified) when we believe in him. However, as our heavenly Father, he helps us gain more and more of Jesus' perfection during our life as we race toward our resurrection perfection when Jesus returns, not completed until then (Philippians 3:10-14).

Southernscotty said:

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

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I believe it to be possible to be made in the way of Christ by God The Father through Christ. However, I have not attained it. First you must be born again. Many claim to be but are not. The day is coming when all shall know The Father from the least to the greatest.

Danielwright2311 said:

I have been seeing a lot of , "You have to be perfect" in just about every web site I go to and to be honest its getting frustrating.

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Well, we believers have a high calling upon us. We ought not set the bar too low, as is often the case, just because others set it too high. We cannot be actually perfect in our living this side of the grave but we can be more holy and righteous than most believers seem to think they can be.

Danielwright2311 said:

The truth is salvation is a gift and bought and paid for by Jesus.

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Amen! And so we ought not to treat what he did lightly by taking advantage of his sacrifice by sinful living. The price of our sin must be paid; and it was paid - in full - by Christ. He died a horrible, agonizing death on the cross so that we might be reconciled to God. How terrible a thing it is, then, when a believer becomes careless about their sin and God's forgiveness of it.

Danielwright2311 said:

Yes we must be converted into a new being, but this does not mean we will not be tempted and drawn into sin.

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Every truly saved person is a new creation in Christ. While this doesn't mean a born-again believer will be sin-free, it does mean that sin can be come the exception rather than the rule in a believer's life.

Danielwright2311 said:

Its one thing to sin because we want to, its a totally different thing to be tempted into sin.

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No one sins against their will. Not usually, anyway. The apostle James explains:

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Danielwright2311 said:

But what I am saying is we are able to make mistakes and be forgiven for it.

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And for every sin we commit, God demanded an awful penalty to be exacted from His own Son.

Danielwright2311 said:

Also Jesus has the power to change you so you dont sin, or make it easer for you not to sin, all you have to do is ask him.

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If a person is born-again, they don't have to ask Jesus for the power not to sin but for the faith to believe that what Paul says in Romans 6:1-18 is true. It is only when a believer starts to "reckon it so" that they have been "crucified with Christ" and so freed from the power of sin that they will no longer be a slave to sin.

Southernscotty said:

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

Click to expand...

"Progress not perfection" is a biblical idea. The closest we can come to perfection in this fallen world in our fallen flesh is to have faith that the Lord will bring us all the way through to perfection and for us to persevere in trying to make progress.

Here is what I have been taught:
God is in the process of perfecting our souls. We are still immature children who must battle the unresurrected flesh which still desires to sin. But this physical body will die and we do best by regarding it as dead already (I call it the “zombie”) and keeping it under control (via that “fruit of the Spirit” called self-control).
Through the process of spiritual growth and maturation, we (our now immortal souls) learn to resist temptation and to “walk in the Spirit” and “live by the Word of God.” True believers will always persevere to the end. Half-hearted believers will not.