Reaching perfection

Southernscotty · Jun 26, 2018

Man on Fire said:
What does that look like? Someone who has received Freedom from the Lord would display certain qualities and have certain fruit?

A backsliding Christian may not have been saved in the first place?

Yes christians produce fruits for the kingdom John 15. We do not know the heart only God does. But Romans 10:9-13 is to confess and believe and you will have eternal life, a believers job is just to believe. :]

friend of · Jun 26, 2018

@Senkaku

Senkaku said:
put it simply and bluntly; "be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect" and "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom

It sounds like a tall order but remember the true righteousness of Christ isn't expressed in the meticulous keeping or ordanaces (you search the scriptures because you think they hold eternal life) rather, it is about Christ himself dwelling in us. Meekness and other fruits of the Spirit are they which the Pharisees did not have as they were arrogant.

Southernscotty · Jun 26, 2018

friend of said:
@Senkaku

It sounds like a tall order but remember the true righteousness of Christ isn't expressed in the meticulous keeping or ordanaces (you search the scriptures because you think they hold eternal life) rather, it is about Christ himself dwelling in us. Meekness and other fruits of the Spirit are they which the Pharisees did not have as they were arrogant.

Yes and Amen :]

Senkaku · Jun 26, 2018

friend of said:
@Senkaku

It sounds like a tall order but remember the true righteousness of Christ isn't expressed in the meticulous keeping or ordanaces (you search the scriptures because you think they hold eternal life) rather, it is about Christ himself dwelling in us. Meekness and other fruits of the Spirit are they which the Pharisees did not have as they were arrogant.

well, thats why the grace of god is so..."easy", because the standard has been raised and we need it.

keep in mind the context though, when he referenced this it was according to their deeds as the crowds would have understood what he was saying. Jesus wasn't validating their religious hearts, but rather, their zeal to accomplish such intense obedience. so, unless your righteousness (zeal for doing whats right) surpasses that of the pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom. in this case, true, authentic zeal fueled by the love of God in your heart. this is also why he says "if you love me you'll keep my commandments" that is not saying because you do them that proves you love him. it is saying, in essence, if you fall head over heels in love with god, then you'll obey him without even trying. its like a married couple. you don't kiss your wife because you're married and you have to (at least, i hope not), you do it because you love her. If i have to tell you to love your wife then there is a problem...hope that helped clear up what i was trying to say.

Halbhh · Jun 26, 2018

Senkaku said:
well, thats why the grace of god is so..."easy", because the standard has been raised and we need it.

keep in mind the context though, when he referenced this it was according to their deeds as the crowds would have understood what he was saying. Jesus wasn't validating their religious hearts, but rather, their zeal to accomplish such intense obedience. so, unless your righteousness (zeal for doing whats right) surpasses that of the pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom. in this case, true, authentic zeal fueled by the love of God in your heart. this is also why he says "if you love me you'll keep my commandments" that is not saying because you do them that proves you love him. it is saying, in essence, if you fall head over heels in love with god, then you'll obey him without even trying. its like a married couple. you don't kiss your wife because you're married and you have to (at least, i hope not), you do it because you love her. If i have to tell you to love your wife then there is a problem...hope that helped clear up what i was trying to say.

And also those who don't love Him will not keep His commandments--

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."

This reminds us of how "by their fruits you will know them". And Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

But going just a little further we run into the sharp and very emphasized teaching He said to you and me in verses 21 through 27.

Consider: He is speaking as if there will be moments when you have to choose, between 2 paths. Of course, we all stumble at times, and can confess, and be cleansed and restored (1 John chapter 1). But there is the continued and repeated emphasis from our Teacher, our Redeemer, Christ Jesus, that we need (at times) to remember to choose His way, His path for us --

"But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Of course, He didn't say empty words to no purpose here, but is talking to believers, you and I, and telling us something so crucial, about what finally will allow us to endure, or be destroyed, in the end, by the storms of life, whether our faith will endure. As Paul wrote it in Romans chapter 8, we have to choose to walk in the spirit instead of in the flesh.

So while you are totally right it's the most natural response to Christ, our Savoir, to do as He said to do, to love, it's still at times of temptation that there are 2 choices, and at those moments, having 2 attractions, 2 things pulling at us, His way and the pull of the flesh, then suddenly we really do have to remember His words, or look to Him.

Of course, one can pray the prayer He gave you and me to pray in Matthew 6 -- that we not be led into temptation, but that we be delivered from evil. This prayer aids so much. While I find that looking to Christ helps me immensely to love all my neighbors and to forgive, still it aids us much to be helped against temptations. These words of His to us in the gospels are invaluable for our daily lives.

Devin P · Jun 26, 2018

Southernscotty said:
I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

I can definitely agree with your side, in that we cannot become perfect, otherwise there'd have been no point for Jesus to die. There is a point in time that we will be perfect, walking on the earth though, but not in this life, and not in this body. This body is corruptible. What was being mentioned here, was when we are resurrected. We will be given new bodies, and in these bodies we will physically walk on earth, reigning with Jesus for His 1000 year reign before He hands the kingdom over to His Father.

1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We cannot attain perfection in this life. We can walk perfectly, as in we don't place ourselves before others and are kind and just and loving towards all who are in our lives, as Abraham did. In walking perfectly before others, we don't wrong them, and always keep our word, being faithful and fair to all, according to God's law, and according to His commands.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

Southernscotty said:
I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

I do however believe pretty much just as you do, that we are saved through faith, apart from works. I do however also believe, that once we're saved, that we then go on to walk in the love of our Father, loving Him by walking in obedience to Him and His commands.

As Romans 7 and 8 shows us, Paul desired to keep God's law, but due to his flesh, he was unable to keep it perfectly, but would stumble, and that Jesus was what bridged this gap. That though he strives for perfect obedience, and thereby a perfect love of the Father, his flesh prevents this, and that Jesus bridges this gap for him, as I believe He does for us as well.

aiki · Jun 26, 2018

Southernscotty said:
Yes; but then again you are speaking in the spiritual sense. I agree with all this spiritually, But I am speaking of flesh and our walk in the physical world as others see us and us "physically" reaching perfection in our skin :]

??? Not sure what distinction you are making here, exactly. What is true of me spiritually ultimately shapes - or should shape - how I live every day. Paul wasn't speaking in a merely spiritual way when he wrote, "What shall we say, then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" Clearly, he thought the things he wrote of in Romans 6 had a direct bearing on how the Roman believers actually lived "in the physical world" as they sought to "reach perfection in their skin." Really, Romans 6 is about as practical a chapter as you will find in the Bible!

Danielwright2311 · Jun 26, 2018

I have been seeing a lot of , "You have to be perfect" in just about every web site I go to and to be honest its getting frustrating.

The truth is salvation is a gift and bought and paid for by Jesus.

Yes we must be converted into a new being, but this does not mean we will not be tempted and drawn into sin.

And if so its forgiven as the thief on the cross was forgiven just by belief alone.

Its one thing to sin because we want to, its a totally different thing to be tempted into sin.

Thats what forgiveness is, to forgive sins, even Jesus said he has the power to forgive sins.

I'm not telling any one here to sin, never would.

But what I am saying is we are able to make mistakes and be forgiven for it.

And to be honest if we are leed by evil spirts to sin and we fell guilt for it then we repent and pray for forgives then we are forgiven.

How do I know this? Jesus said so.

Also Jesus has the power to change you so you dont sin, or make it easer for you not to sin, all you have to do is ask him.

Mark A. Wylie · Jun 27, 2018

Among those seeming to fall weak to different decisions made that we do not in fulfilling God's plan for us, sure we can be perfect in Christ but will be tested by those whose paths did not involve such decisions. The Lord said celibacy was good, but also said none good but God. It is God that asked an undivided heart of me all these years as the Lord shared that we are not our own. We leave our parents to cleave to our wife, we leave for Chist's sake, we make our home with God, and the animals have no place to lay there head. Did the Lord just not declare so many things other than celibacy to be good, or God's plan?

meconstant3402 · Jun 27, 2018

Perfection is a long way away from us, here in the USA. I see it practically, as positing faith in Christ and carrying it out in your life. Particularly in the commandments, which He says we will follow IF we love HIM. Love God with all your heart and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. And the poor turned out to be those beaten, sick, imprisoned. As He said later, those who fed and clothed and sheltered and visited did so to HIM. So perfection is not way high up, but low, a little child helpless and miserable, loving her. Tenderness towards someone vilely used who is hated for no reason.

faroukfarouk · Jun 27, 2018

Southernscotty said:
I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

The doctrine of so called sinless perfection isn't Biblical! Instead, it's the work of Christ for the believer that is perfect!

Halbhh · Jun 27, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
I have been seeing a lot of , "You have to be perfect" in just about every web site I go to and to be honest its getting frustrating.

The truth is salvation is a gift and bought and paid for by Jesus.

Whoa, please tell me where these web sites are, so that we can go there and bring them the Good News!

Here the wonderful Ephesians 2:8-10 has been quoted in these discussions perhaps 40-200 times in the last 3 months I bet, but other sites may have this more rarely?

Even just to simply quote (without arguing!) is a real aid for many not aware:

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Halbhh · Jun 27, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
I have been seeing a lot of , "You have to be perfect" in just about every web site I go to and to be honest its getting frustrating.

The truth is salvation is a gift and bought and paid for by Jesus.

Yes we must be converted into a new being, but this does not mean we will not be tempted and drawn into sin.

And if so its forgiven as the thief on the cross was forgiven just by belief alone.

Its one thing to sin because we want to, its a totally different thing to be tempted into sin.

Thats what forgiveness is, to forgive sins, even Jesus said he has the power to forgive sins.

I'm not telling any one here to sin, never would.

But what I am saying is we are able to make mistakes and be forgiven for it.

And to be honest if we are leed by evil spirts to sin and we fell guilt for it then we repent and pray for forgives then we are forgiven.

How do I know this? Jesus said so.

Also Jesus has the power to change you so you dont sin, or make it easer for you not to sin, all you have to do is ask him.

Also, you should be extremely encouraged if you read through this thread, about this question, as it's abundantly clear we are saying just what you yourself just stated.

And, helpfully, very good expansions and extensions too, which any could benefit from, who is humble enough to learn.

2consider · Jun 27, 2018

Southernscotty said:
I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

LadyCrosstalk · Jun 27, 2018

Southernscotty said:
I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

While I think that the Holy Spirit is continuously busy with His work in us, our sanctification will not be complete til we pass through the veil into the holy place that the Messiah opened to us. This world is profane and we are contaminated (defiled) by it--our "feet get dirty" even though we have been washed by the Blood of Jesus our Savior. We are far from perfect (remember, even an evil thought contaminates our hearts--some have been startled to see that "foolishness" is judged as being a defilement). See Mark 7:20-23 for Jesus' list of sins that come from deep within us and are often far from obvious on the outside--but they still defile us. Many, many saints have longed to be free from this world of sin and ushered into the presence of our Lord in His heavenly home--a place that "breathes holiness," in the words of the incomparable preacher, Leonard Ravenhill.

Southernscotty · Jun 27, 2018

I think that we are all pretty much on the same page here. We all agree the pure perfection is from and of Jesus Christ :clap:

enigmadi · Jun 27, 2018

Southernscotty said:
I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

enigmadi · Jun 27, 2018

Southernscotty said:
I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

faroukfarouk · Jun 27, 2018

@Heavenhome :

I am reminded of the lines by Anne Griffiths:

"O may these hallowed pages be
My ever, dear delight!
And still new beauties may I see,
And still increasing light!"

If, on the other hand, we have already arrived and already know-it-all, one could almost say, what would be the point of the Scriptures? and reading them prayerfully every day?

faroukfarouk · Jun 27, 2018

LadyCrosstalk said:
While I think that the Holy Spirit is continuously busy with His work in us, our sanctification will not be complete til we pass through the veil into the holy place that the Messiah opened to us. This world is profane and we are contaminated (defiled) by it--our "feet get dirty" even though we have been washed by the Blood of Jesus our Savior. We are far from perfect (remember, even an evil thought contaminates our hearts--some have been startled to see that "foolishness" is judged as being a defilement). See Mark 7:20-23 for Jesus' list of sins that are sins that come from deep within us and are often far from obvious on the outside--but they still defile us. Many, many saints have longed to be free from this world of sin and ushered into the presence of our Lord in His heavenly home--a place that "breathes holiness," in the words of the incomparable preacher, Leonard Ravenhill.

It's good to distinguish between justification - a judicial act received by faith - and sanctification, which has both its positional and conditional aspects. Blurring the two doctrines can lead to a lot of confusion.

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