Todays State of Israel Is Not Final Return

Copperhead · Jun 26, 2018

Well, I am sticking with the idea that the modern state of Israel is fulfillment of prophecy. Ezekiel 4 combined with Leviticus 26 and taken in light of Ezekiel 36-37. Especially how the regathering of the nation again initially in unbelief, which seems to be the case right now. YHWH is one who delights in making and keeping His promises. If he cannot keep the one to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then everyone's salvation is at risk also. The modern state of Israel is confirmation of promises kept. It may not be to others, but it is my insurance policy that YHWH will keep his promise of salvation to me.

Combine that with the insanity of the world in how everyone worldwide is so upset over a sliver of land no bigger than the U.S. State of New Jersey. The angst of so many, believers and unbelievers, toward modern Israel speaks volumes.

BABerean2 · Jun 26, 2018

Copperhead said:
YHWH is one who delights in making and keeping His promises. If he cannot keep the one to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then everyone's salvation is at risk also. The modern state of Israel is confirmation of promises kept. It may not be to others, but it is my insurance policy that YHWH will keep his promise of salvation to me.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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kcmonseysr · Jun 26, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You are promoting some form of "Dual Covenant" Theology.
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No he's not.

BABerean2 · Jun 26, 2018

kcmonseysr said:
No he's not.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

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Davy · Jun 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
This is an anti-Semitic post that is void of truth. You need to stop reading things like "Breaking Israel News" and other outlets like it because they are nothing more than their version of the Weekly World News or National Inquirer. You're right about them having the materials ready to go to build the Temple... but there is no sanctioned Sanhedrin. There are a group of rabbis who call themselves that but neither the Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox, or State recognize them as such. Your comments about the lost sheep are close to truth... however, Jesus said he had not been sent but to the lost sheep and he also sent his disciples specifically to the lost sheep. So the "weight" of his message was to them. Finally... the Jews of today do NOT view this nation state called Israel as the Kingdom. Most Jews are secular, first of all, and second of all, any practicing Jew who takes his faith seriously will tell you that they await the messiah to usher in the kingdom. What you are quoting, or at least inferring, is what other CHRISTIANS write that they say the Jews believe. In other words, you're repeating error that comes from Christians not Jews.

I am sure you don't intend to do that, but that is what you are doing. Next time, just go to a Jewish synagogue and ask them what they believe. Much easier and cuts out the middle man who is almost always wrong anyway.

My post is in NO WAY anti-Semitic. You are only trying to use that as a political tool.

I have had enough discussions already with orthodox Jews and even Messianic Jews, who both believe Israel's restoration is happening today, as they 'promote' the idea that all twelve tribes of Israel are returning, which is not true.

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
In it's fullness... there is an awakening before the return though I don't believe the full restoration of the entire house of Israel happens until messiah comes.

Which is basically what my OP stated. So why did you try and dump on me in your prior post?

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

SeventyOne said:
Why is there the insertion of the requirement that the Jews have to know their individual tribal affiliation? The only one who needs to know is the one who gathered them together again. I'm certain He knows.

It's because God's Word points to it.

Hos 2:10-13
10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.
13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.
KJV

That above is about God scattering the ten tribes of Israel ("house of Israel" after the 1 Kings 11 split). To lose knowledge of Israel's feasts, new moons, and sabbaths is to lose knowledge of their heritage. In verse 13, God is pointing to them going fully into Baal worship, which was one of things He scattered them for. They became as Gentiles, which was why they were lost as part of Israel.

Hos 1:6-7
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
KJV

In the above, God showed that He would NOT do the same to the "house of Judah" as He did to the ten tribes ("house of Israel"). And that was true, the house of Judah (Jews) remained in the holy land when God scattered the ten tribes, as written. The Jews would go into captivity to Babylon later, but still God would not let them have an end like He did with the ten tribes. Thus the Jews have kept their heritage of the feast days, new moons, and sabbaths, throughout their history, and that is one of biggest reasons how they know they are Jews, even today.

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
I kind of find your post a little troubling. I generally enjoy your views even if I don't always agree with them. But on this one... I am sorry, I just find it lacking. First of all, how do you define "leading Jews?" And to suggest that most are atheist reminds me of the comedian Steven Wright who said, "67.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot." Are you not aware of recent polls that show that 83% of all Israeli Jews are religious to "some degree?" Even their "leading Jew" ( Benjamin Netanyahu ) you don't have exactly an Orthodox guy, but you certainly have a religious God-fearing Jew in him. And you understand that save for their Independence Day, the only other national holidays are Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot... all biblical feasts. These are their NATIONAL ATHEIST holidays? Also... the idea that the coming Kingdom will look more like the Eastern Orthodox OR the Messianic Jews is almost humorous as despite your shared belief that Yeshua is messiah, you couldn't be more different in practice and tradition. Finally, to think that the coming Kingdom can only look like your current view of Scripture or the Messianic Jews current view of Scripture means God is A. confined to either of your CURRENT views and B. means no end time truth exists outside of your two sects? That is a grand statement and one, obviously, I reject.

I don't treat orthodox Jews as atheists myself, but until they receive Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah, The Christ, then they are not saved. So even with a devout orthodox Jew who believes in The Father, I'm still not going to say they can be saved without Jesus Christ, or any idea approaching that. So my OP was never an attack on the Jews as a people. But as a warning to the Church, because we as Christians are NOT to be yoked with the unbelieving (2 Cor.6:14

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Davy · Jun 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
So we have gone from an atheist nation to not atheist but not God's chosen? As for the latter, you need to read prophecy more. The new covenant is made with the House of Judah >>AND<< the House of Israel. Two groups of people and the House of Judah is the Jews. The ones in the nations who are not Jewish but belong to God, like you and me... are the other group... or at least PART OF the other group. To say Judah is not God's people is to declare God's own words invalid.

Actually, you might want to rethink that point about others needing to read prophecy more. The New Covenant is ONLY for those in Christ Jesus. It is to both 'believing' Israel of the seed and to believing Gentiles. There's only a small group of Jewish believers on Jesus in the state of Israel today. The majority of Jews in Israel today don't believe on Jesus Christ.

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Unbelieving Jews... if an Orthodox Jew follows the commandments of the one God (out of love) and lives for the day Messiah comes and ushers in a time of peace and restoration... you are seriously calling him an unbeliever? Why? Because he lacks YOUR current understanding? That is a bit prideful, isn't it? You are using YOUR understanding (your CURRENT understanding) as the standard by which you judge others who call on the same God you do?

Are you saying an unbelieving Jew can be saved WITHOUT belief on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ???

If so, then why are you here on a CHRISTIAN forum?

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
But it is a question I have considered for a very long time. Go read Zech. 12:10 and weigh it into your understanding.

That is for the day of the Lord timing, on the day of Jesus' return. It has yet to happen. See what Paul taught in Romans 11 when the fullness of the Gentiles is up, that is when God will remove the blindness He put upon Israel in part (Jews), and then the unbelieving Jews will no longer be deceived and will come to Jesus. Because they have yet... as a majority, to come to Jesus, it shows that Zech.12:10 Scripture is still yet to be fulfilled.

SeventyOne · Jun 26, 2018

Davy said:
It's because God's Word points to it.

Hos 2:10-13
10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.
13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.
KJV

That above is about God scattering the ten tribes of Israel ("house of Israel" after the 1 Kings 11 split). To lose knowledge of Israel's feasts, new moons, and sabbaths is to lose knowledge of their heritage. In verse 13, God is pointing to them going fully into Baal worship, which was one of things He scattered them for. They became as Gentiles, which was why they were lost as part of Israel.

Hos 1:6-7
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
KJV

In the above, God showed that He would NOT do the same to the "house of Judah" as He did to the ten tribes ("house of Israel"). And that was true, the house of Judah (Jews) remained in the holy land when God scattered the ten tribes, as written. The Jews would go into captivity to Babylon later, but still God would not let them have an end like He did with the ten tribes. Thus the Jews have kept their heritage of the feast days, new moons, and sabbaths, throughout their history, and that is one of biggest reasons how they know they are Jews, even today.

Thanks for the response, but that doesn't actually answer my question.

jamespyles · Jun 26, 2018

I didn't read all of the posts and basically skimmed the thread. I don't comment here often because disagreeing with other believers tarnishes my sense of fellowship and interferes with my relationship with my Creator.

However, I've written extensively about how the Church (Big "C") has misunderstood what the New Covenant is and how it is to be applied. My response to all of this is too lengthy to fit in a discussion board post, so I'll just leave some links here. I'll tell you right now that the vast, vast majority of you will disagree.

Briefly Revisiting Gentiles and the New Covenant

When Jesus Returns, Will We Go To Church?

When is Church Not Church?

Each essay is fairly lengthy, so I imagine not many will read through all of them.

TribulationSigns · Jun 26, 2018

Douggg said:
The stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph put together.... is like the reuniting in Genesis. But in the end times, it is talking about being one nation again, not separated into two kingdoms.

I never said about separated into two kingdoms. I am talking about one holy nation, one Kingdom, One Olive Tree in Christ, making up of both Jews and Gentiles. Not the reunification of the physical nation in the Middle East for ethnic Jews according to their "tribes."

That's what it is talking about. It is not talking about the church uniting with Israel - to become "spiritual Israel". God had reunited the twelve tribes in the past. And He in the end times, He does it again.

You misunderstood. I did not teach about the Gentile church being united with national Israel. Not at all. I am talking about the joining of Elects from the Old Testament congregation (Judah) and New Testament Congregation (Joesph) into ONE Covenant stick under one king as one holy nation which the story in Genesis is merely type of.

jgr · Jun 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
God is the author of all true facts. But lying mankind is the author of much of what is claimed to be scientific fact. And God warned us against relying upon what is falsely called knowledge.

I've cited the Jewish community, and the information that it has published regarding its own genetics.

I've also cited an independent description of the mathematics which confirm the genetic claim.

Who in these sources is lying, and what is the false information that they have published?

If the claim is that these sources are lying, but the genetic and mathematical evidence they produce contradicts the claim that they are lying; then what are the alternate sources of the lying?

SonOfZion · Jun 26, 2018

Isaiah 34:8
For it is the day of YHWH's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

9
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

Sixth Seal (Will last for One Year)

For the Great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 6:17

Psalms 91:
7
A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8
Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

Isaiah 35:10
And the ransomed of YAHUWAH shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Jeremiah 50:4
In those days, and in that time, saith YAHUWAH, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek YAHUWAH their Elohim.

5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to YAHUWAH in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.

20 In those days, and in that time, saith YAHUWAH, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. Ezekiel 37:26

__________________________________________________________________
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When YHWH shall build up Zion, He shall Appear in His Glory. Psalms 102:16

Looking for that blessed hope, and the Glorious Appearing of the great Elohim and our Saviour YESHUA Mashiach; Titus 2:13

In that day will I raise up The Tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: Amos 9:11

The four key attributes/characteristics/facets/features of Zion: Are for starters

1) One King - Hosea 1:11, John 10:16 ...

2) One Nation (12 Tribes) - Ezekiel 37:19, John 10:16 - Acts 1:6-7 ...

3) In the Land ~ Jeremiah 50:28, Ezekiel 34:14 ...

4) Bond of the Covenant ~ Ezekiel 20:37, Hebrews 10:16 ...

Since the Blessed Hope will not occur until this Happens - Why is this ignored in Christendom?

TribulationSigns · Jun 26, 2018

Douggg said:
Do you say it is wrong for Christians to pray the Lord's prayer?

Your rationale is wrong. The Kingdom of God, concerning Christians, is within Christians. Which we are to conform to being in the image of Jesus, Romans 8:29.

Differently, the Lord's prayer of thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven, refers to the nations of this world coming under the dominion of the Kingdom of God. The mystery of God of that happening is when the 7th trumpet sounds and God starts dismantling Satan's mystery Babylon the Great invisible empire from having dominion over the earth.

The world is currently at enmity with God.

The Kingdom of God has ALREADY came through the Church on earth. God has promised a kingdom, that He is Himself a Sovereign King, and that in His incarnation and in His saving work—His death, burial, and resurrection which Jesus has inaugurated a kingdom through the church, a kingdom that is not yet fully consummated until the fullness of the Gentiles be coming in, and so All Israel shall be saved. In other words, the building of Covenant Israel is finished. This mystery of God will be finished at the last trump when Christ will give THIS kingdom to His Father. A kingdom making up of all Elect from Old and New Testament. Not a physical stones, walls, and land!

Jack Terrence · Jun 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
The prophesied return of Israel is repeatedly stated to be a return of all Israel, not just of the Jews. Isaiah 66 makes it very clear that this return will take place after Messiah returns, not before.

It took place after the seventy years captivity.

“For thus says the Lord: After seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile. Jeremiah 29:10-14

Oops, you missed it.

jgr · Jun 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
God will do what God will do whether we know it and understand it or not.

Absolutely true.

And He will do what His Word demonstrates He has always done.

Deal with mankind on the basis of faith and obedience, and nothing else.

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

dqhall said:
Israeli archaeologists discovered Jerusalem expanded during the time the Assyrian army was marching into Israel from the north. They theorized the city was growing due to refugee arrivals from the north. These may have been from the 10 regions marked as tribal regions in the Bible. The Levites did not have a specific tribal area.

Haaretz, an Israeli news periodical, reported 17 Ultra-Orthodox Jews were detained for trying to sacrifice baby goats near the Temple Mount during Passover (4-12-2017). They have not been able to re-institute the daily Temple sacrifice. I am not aware of any nation currently practicing burnt offerings.

Israel arrests 17 far-right Jews allegedly attempting to sacrifice goats on Temple Mount for Passover

Temple Mount Faithful sacrifices lamb in pre-Passover ritual

Passover sacrifices in Jerusalem by orthodox Jews like the temple mount faithful have been going on for decades. 2017 was not the first time. My link shows even one of Jerusalem's Chief Rabbi Arye Stern supporting it.

1 Chronicles 11 reveals a remnant of the ten northern tribes migrated south and joined with Judah in the days of Jeroboam, because they refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship in the north. So even back then we know there was a remnant of the ten tribes that joined with Judah and became Jews. Luke 2 shows Anna of the tribe of Asher who prophesied of Jesus and saw Him. Yet she was a Jew because of living in Judea among the Jews. Even strangers living in Judea took the name Jew.

So I wouldn't be surprised that when the kings of Assyria began their attacks on the northern ten tribes, that some of them left the north then also, and joined with Judah in the south, and became Jews.

But that does not... mean all 12 tribes of Israel were together back then, nor now. 2 Kings 17 shows the majority of the ten northern tribes taken out of the holy land by the Assyrians. The small remnants of northern tribes that left and joined with Judah cannot supplant the larger majority of northern ten tribe Israelties which did not... join with Judah.

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