Other Sheep

gomerian · Jun 25, 2018

Davy said:
Your response is not very clear; that shows you haven't yet decided on the matter.

Get over yourself, Davy. God is able to be unbiased. I doubt that the same thing can be said of you, since you're using the worldly yardstick.

gomerian · Jun 25, 2018

"I the LORD have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will keep Thee, and give Thee for a Covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

So... doesn't the Covenant itself mean the Key? In fact, those words are so closely intertwined, that the Covenant is a gift of love from the throne room of the Ancient of Days. The God of Raising and Son of God, will Open Prisons, by Love. Jesus is the Covenant, incarnate.

________
19:10 ... I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

gomerian · Jun 25, 2018

keras said:
Jesus will fill that role when He Returns, as the King of the world.
There is no false Jewish Messiah, that idea is just another theory made to suit the rapture lie.

Right; The AC comes in his own name, he doesn't make out to be the Messiah, he sits in the Temple and declares himself to be god! Matthew 24:13

Not the whole business of rapture is a lie, since the two witnesses are taken up in a cloud, and the glass-sea multitude gets reaped as wheat. But I think it's the false prophet who fits more closely the definition of false messiah... he points to the little-horn. Against-Christ is a confederacy with a little-horn leader. FP causes the idolatry and famine, in the name of the little-horn.

John 5:43 "I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

But where does Jesus ever talk about some guy pretending to be god? He mentions... or a gloss mentions... Daniel 11:31. Which is the same sort of statue that the false prophet wants you to make unto his god... to get you to eat things sacrificed to idols. It's the false prophet who comes in his own name... because God never sent him. We see that sort of thing being warned against, all through the Bible.

Douggg · Jun 25, 2018

Davy said:
It is impossible for the ten lost tribes to even know... to return, since they are NOT Jews, and lost their heritage as Israel. I covered this point in an earlier post from Hosea 2 where God said they would lose their heritage of the feast days, new moons, and sabbaths. Why have you denied His Word about that?

The ten tribes are not "lost". God knows who each one is - inside of and outside of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Obviously, there were persons from all twelve tribes in Israel - as Jesus did not travel outside of the land of Israel. And the issue was not lost in heritage, but in relation to being right with God. The identity of who belonged to each tribe has gottened blurred over the course of time because they intermarried with each other. Even to today, most Jews are not sure of what tribe they belong to.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Being lost has to do with spiritual condition - not heritage.

It is easy to see hat the two sticks have be joined together.

keras · Jun 25, 2018

Douggg said:
It is easy to see hat the two sticks have be joined together.

Just a plain reading of Ezekiel 37, makes it easy to see that the two 'sticks' have not joined as yet.
The great spiritual blessings of God to His faithful people, remain unfulfilled.

Douggg said:
Jesus did not travel outside of the land of Israel.

No, He sent the Apostles to do that and they have been amazingly successful, by the millions of Christians, peoples from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

Douggg said:
Even to today, most Jews are not sure of what tribe they belong to.

The Jewish people have no proof of their ancestry. In fact what historical records there are; seem to prove they came from many and varied ancestries.

keras · Jun 25, 2018

gomerian said:
Not the whole business of rapture is a lie, since the two witnesses are taken up in a cloud,

They are murdered first and their case is plainly a one off.
Thinking they prove or even point to; a general rapture of the Church, is simply error.

gomerian said:
But where does Jesus ever talk about some guy pretending to be god?

In Revelation 13:11-13
Thinking there will be a false Messiah for the Jews, contradicts the fact of their forthcoming Judgement, where only a remnant will survive. The few Christian Jews who do, will join with their brethren, as they all go to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5

Douggg · Jun 25, 2018

keras said:
Just a plain reading of Ezekiel 37, makes it easy to see that the two 'sticks' have not joined as yet.
The great spiritual blessings of God to His faithful people, remain unfulfilled.

The two sitcks have been joined together. It shows by the map. Anyone can see it and it doesn't need an interpretation.

You are in denial because you are misinterpreting Ezekiel 37 thinking they have to be Christians before it is one nation again. But Ezekiel 38/39 shows that first they become one nation again, then Gog/Magog takes places, and following Gog/Magog is when they become Christians. And the Armageddon feast of Revelation 19 is in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Here it is. Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Israel became a nation - one nation again - in a single day. As soon as Zion travails - when the Day of the Lord first starts and the great tribulation - and they shall not escape - she delivers her children, they become Christians.

Which is what it says of them in Revelation 12:17, keeping the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus.

keras · Jun 25, 2018

Douggg said:
Israel became a nation - one nation again - in a single day

History lesson; The promotion of a Jewish state in Palestine began in 1898.
50 years later the State of Israel was ratified by the UN.
If you actually read Isaiah 66:7-14, you would know that that prophecy cannot apply to the Israel of today.
Your map is meaningless.

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

gomerian said:
Get over yourself, Davy. God is able to be unbiased. I doubt that the same thing can be said of you, since you're using the worldly yardstick.

And you refer to what conquerers do and rich people and armies in your post and say I'm focused on a worldy yardstick?

I pretty much find useless your post below (especially your bias against Josephus and supposed reference to him and Esdras. In that you were not following Scripture under discussion but only throwing out your bias:

By gomerian:

Conquerers don't leave the land vacant so that wild animals increase, nor do they stop wanting the farmers to farm. The armies and rich people would have been hauled off, along with the ruling class and priesthood. Poor people were left in the land as slaves.

Yikes! I completely forgot about Levi... which makes Matthew 23:37-38 even more of a problem.

Josephus seems to be paraphrasing Esdras... some of which I find extremely hinky. But Jesus sent the Revelation letters to the churches of Asia, not across the Euphrates.

SonOfZion · Jun 26, 2018

Jacob Blesses Ephraim

And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become fulness of the nations. Genesis 48:19

fulness of the nations / Melo haGoyim

Melo KJV - full (12x), fulness (8x), all that is therein (7x), all (2x), fill (2x), handful (2x), multitude (2x), handful (with H7062) (1x), handfuls (with H2651) (1x).

Gen 48:19 LXX Greek Septuagint - ἔσται εἰς πλῆθος (Plethos G4128) ἐθνῶν (Ethnos/ n - G1484)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel (House of Judah), until the fulness of the Ethnon be come in. Rom 11:25

Rom 11:25 πλήρωμα (Pleroma G4138) τῶν ἐθνῶν (Ethnos / n - G1484) εἰσέλθῃ - be come in

Pleroma - KJV fulness (13x), full (1x), fulfilling (1x), which is put in to fill up (1x), pierce that filled up (1x).

The Fulness of the People are "Ephraim" - In Who's hand is the Stick of Joseph - Israel

The Fulness of the People/Nations: Ethnon - When this word is translated as gentiles (It's a false interpretation) that does not convey the true meaning of Ethnos. The same thing goes with the synonymous Hebrew word Goyim when it is mis-translated as "heathen: or anything other than its true Biblical meaning - People or Nations

Say unto them, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine Hand.

And I will make them one Goy in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one King shall be King to them all: and they shall be no more two Goyim, neither shall they be divided into two Kingdoms any more at all. Ezekiel 37:19,22

Those that are not Jewish, who are in Messiah are a part of the Stick of Joseph.

There is no such thing as a "gentile" church in the Bible

The New Covenant is with the House of Israel and Judah ~ Jeremiah 31:31-33 Hebrew 8:8-10

The House/Family you have become a part of, If you are in Messiah. Galatians 3:29, Isaiah 41:8, Ephesians 2:11-12

James in Hebrew is Jacob

Luke 1:33 And He shall reign over the House of Jacob forever; And of His Kingdom there shall be no end.

Jacob 1:1 Jacob...To the Twelve Tribes scattered abroad...

The house of Judah is one fold of Israel with Benjamins and some Levis - Southern Kingdom, thus Israel (The only Israel representing in the first century ~ ( YESHUA laid His life down for Two Folds) The House of Judah and the House of Israel (Northern Kingdom), This is why He said that the Father Loved Him

John 10:16
And other sheep (House of Israel) I have, which are not of this fold (House of Judah): them also I must bring, and they shall hear My Voice; and there shall be one Fold , and one Shepherd.

17
Therefore doth My Father Love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.

The Stick of Joseph is the Northern Kingdom (10 Tribes)

The Stick of Judah is the Southern Kingdom

SonOfZion · Jun 26, 2018

keras said:
History lesson; The promotion of a Jewish state in Palestine began in 1898.
50 years later the State of Israel was ratified by the UN.
If you actually read Isaiah 66:7-14, you would know that that prophecy cannot apply to the Israel of today.
Your map is meaningless.

Mr. Keras

The following verses are a prophecy about a people who will return to their homes first in Jerusalem in the end of days that are called the house of Judah - And that all nations would come against them, and that YHWH will fight for them, and that HE shall pour His Spirit upon them and they will look upon Him whom they have Pierced and mourn.

So, when do you expect these non-believing Jewish people to return to their homes, and then look upon YESHUA?

Zechariah 12:2
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4
In that day, saith YHWH, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open Mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in YHWH of hosts their ELOHIYM.

6
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7
YHWH also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8
In that day shall YHWH defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as Elohim, as the angel of YHWH before them.

9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon ET (Aleph-Taw) whom they have pierced. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

Douggg said:
The ten tribes are not "lost". God knows who each one is - inside of and outside of Israel.

God knows. The majority of today's Jews and the world, and themselves, do not. Yet Apostle James knew they were scattered still in his day (James 1:1).

Matthew 15:24 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Obviously, there were persons from all twelve tribes in Israel - as Jesus did not travel outside of the land of Israel. And the issue was not lost in heritage, but in relation to being right with God. The identity of who belonged to each tribe has gottened blurred over the course of time because they intermarried with each other. Even to today, most Jews are not sure of what tribe they belong to.

I already covered that point about Israel at the time of Jesus' 1st coming. 2 Chronicles 11:16 shows that 'some' of the northern tribes refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship in the north, and instead went down to Jerusalem and sided with Judah. That remnant became Jews along with the tribes of Judah, Benjamin in the south. Those of the tribe of Levi did the same, going south, because Jeroboam setup common priests of the people, so the Levites weren't able to fulfill their priestly duties to the ten tribes in the northern kingdom. That is show there also in 1 Chronicles 11. All one need do is read it. This is why later Scripture like Luke 2 shows one Anna of the tribe of Asher among the Jews in the time of Jesus' 1st coming. Anna's heritage was no doubt from that remnant of the northern tribes that went south to join with the house of Judah back in Jeroboam's day.

That in no way... meant the whole of the northern ten tribes joined with the house of Judah (Jews), and it's easy to know, because the two houses had war against each other per the 1 & 2 Kings histories. All one need do is read it. And by the time after 2 Kings 17, the ten tribes are no longer in the land, gone captive to Assyria and the cities of the Medes.

With Judah (i.e, the Jews, which were made up of the tribe of Judah, tribe of Benjamin, tribe of Levi, and a small remnant of the northern ten tribes, and the strangers that lived in Judea), they never lost their heritage as Jews because even in times when some of them intermarried with Gentiles (like in Ezra 15), they still retained enough of their heritage to know their origins from old Israel. Their customs and traditions was one of the ways they kept that knowledge, and especially their heritage of keeping God's Word showed that also.

But what did the ten tribes instead do after God scattered them and made them to lose knowledge of the feasts, new moons, and sabbath days, and instead go fully into Baal worship? Their Baal idol worship made them forget their heritage even the more! And indeed they became 'lost'... to themselves, and lost to the Jews, and lost to the world, even as it still is today. At the latter part of Ezekiel 39, God makes a point that on the last day of this world is when... the ten tribes will know who they are, that by also showing the world, and they will know why He scattered them for their spiritual whoredoms, etc.

gomerian · Jun 26, 2018

keras said:
They are murdered first and their case is plainly a one off.
Thinking they prove or even point to; a general rapture of the Church, is simply error.

In Revelation 13:11-13
Thinking there will be a false Messiah for the Jews, contradicts the fact of their forthcoming Judgement, where only a remnant will survive. The few Christian Jews who do, will join with their brethren, as they all go to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5

Agreed, keras.

gomerian · Jun 26, 2018

Davy said:
And you refer to what conquerers do and rich people and armies in your post and say I'm focused on a worldy yardstick?

I pretty much find useless your post below (especially your bias against Josephus and supposed reference to him and Esdras. In that you were not following Scripture under discussion but only throwing out your bias:

Nope. Because you've decided you know what motivates other people... and you've done so several times, now... that's Psychology, not Biblical. And if you've read Josephus, where he's talking about the tribes, you'll see him quoting Esdras by name.

The next time you don't have verses in hand, your readers will have to assume that you're biased... because that's the yardstick you've given them to use on you. Judge not that ye be not judged, Davy.

Davy · Jun 26, 2018

SonOfZion said:
Jacob Blesses Ephraim

And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become fulness of the nations. Genesis 48:19

fulness of the nations / Melo haGoyim

Melo KJV - full (12x), fulness (8x), all that is therein (7x), all (2x), fill (2x), handful (2x), multitude (2x), handful (with H7062) (1x), handfuls (with H2651) (1x).

Gen 48:19 LXX Greek Septuagint - ἔσται εἰς πλῆθος (Plethos G4128) ἐθνῶν (Ethnos/ n - G1484)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel (House of Judah), until the fulness of the Ethnon be come in. Rom 11:25

Rom 11:25 πλήρωμα (Pleroma G4138) τῶν ἐθνῶν (Ethnos / n - G1484) εἰσέλθῃ - be come in

Pleroma - KJV fulness (13x), full (1x), fulfilling (1x), which is put in to fill up (1x), pierce that filled up (1x).

The Fulness of the People are "Ephraim" - In Who's hand is the Stick of Joseph - Israel

The Fulness of the People/Nations: Ethnon - When this word is translated as gentiles (It's a false interpretation) that does not convey the true meaning of Ethnos. The same thing goes with the synonymous Hebrew word Goyim when it is mis-translated as "heathen: or anything other than its true Biblical meaning - People or Nations

Say unto them, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine Hand.

And I will make them one Goy in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one King shall be King to them all: and they shall be no more two Goyim, neither shall they be divided into two Kingdoms any more at all. Ezekiel 37:19,22

Those that are not Jewish, who are in Messiah are a part of the Stick of Joseph.

There is no such thing as a "gentile" church in the Bible

The New Covenant is with the House of Israel and Judah ~ Jeremiah 31:31-33 Hebrew 8:8-10

The House/Family you have become a part of, If you are in Messiah. Galatians 3:29, Isaiah 41:8, Ephesians 2:11-12

James in Hebrew is Jacob

Luke 1:33 And He shall reign over the House of Jacob forever; And of His Kingdom there shall be no end.

Jacob 1:1 Jacob...To the Twelve Tribes scattered abroad...

The house of Judah is one fold of Israel with Benjamins and some Levis - Southern Kingdom, thus Israel (The only Israel representing in the first century ~ ( YESHUA laid His life down for Two Folds) The House of Judah and the House of Israel (Northern Kingdom), This is why He said that the Father Loved Him

John 10:16
And other sheep (House of Israel) I have, which are not of this fold (House of Judah): them also I must bring, and they shall hear My Voice; and there shall be one Fold , and one Shepherd.

17
Therefore doth My Father Love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.

The Stick of Joseph is the Northern Kingdom (10 Tribes)

The Stick of Judah is the Southern Kingdom

Right, and the joining of those two sticks have still yet to happen today. That's why a state like today's Israel made up of Jews that still reject Jesus could happen. It's because it's not time for their blindness to be removed which God put upon the Jews so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles.

SonOfZion · Jun 26, 2018

The Father has two sons, as illustrated in the parable of the Elder and Younger brother

The younger receives His inheritance, and then savage wolves come in and he ends up wishing to be fed with what the pigs are eating, meaning being that he is far from the Commandments of Elohim

He comes to His senses and returns to the father.

The Father receives him

The Elder son is upset that the Father receives him back, And proclaims that he had not forsaken the Father's Commandments Hosea 11:12

and

And He said unto him, Son, thou art ever with Me, and all that I have is thine. Luke 15:31

As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for διὰ τοὺς (the) πατέρας (genitive singular)

"for the Father"

(note: Not a Greek expert - If this is not an acceptable translation, educate me and show me why with examples from scripture. It may not be?)

Judah the Elder Son

Ephraim the younger

Which son is worse, the one that says they believe in His provision and refuse to do what He says

Or

the One who keeps His Ways, but has been partially blinded, that the younger brother might come to his senses.

Seems YHWH has two incorrigible sons, In their affliction, because they will not listen now, those that are called, Then they Will Hear Him.

gomerian · Jun 26, 2018

Douggg said:
The ten tribes are not "lost". God knows who each one is - inside of and outside of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Obviously, there were persons from all twelve tribes in Israel - as Jesus did not travel outside of the land of Israel.

Agreed, Douggg. The Other Sheep are the ones who lived in different lands in those days. The people called "this flock" were also Israel. But it seems like some guys calling themselves shepherds have intentionally caused the sheep to be lost... to even forget their restingplace.

Jeremiah 50:6 "My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace."

gomerian · Jun 26, 2018

keras said:
The Jewish people have no proof of their ancestry. In fact what historical records there are; seem to prove they came from many and varied ancestries.

And if that is true how much more is it true of the 10-tribes? Since the Hebrews were scattered ca. 2700 years ago... do they know that they're Hebrews at all, at this point? Especially since some hireling shepherds are saying that Gomer had no nations in Europe... while other hirelings have spiritualized thousands of things that they either don't understand or don't want the Israel-sheep to know? Taken to its most logical conclusion, how is it possible that the Lost Sheep CAN know that they're part of the 10-tribes? Whenever I see scoffers naysaying 10-tribe things, I suspect 2-tribe... er... bias.

BABerean2 · Jun 26, 2018

Douggg said:
It is easy to see hat the two sticks have be joined together.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

.

gomerian · Jun 26, 2018

Douggg said:
You are in denial because you are misinterpreting Ezekiel 37 thinking they have to be Christians before it is one nation again. But Ezekiel 38/39 shows that first they become one nation again, then Gog/Magog takes places, and following Gog/Magog is when they become Christians.

I also see Israel en masse as redeemed before Gog/Magog. God says that He will cause Israel to inherit the waste places, and says that the nation is at rest, when G/M comes southwest. That matches what Revelation tells us. Ezekiel and John are so closely related that they might as well be called two witnesses. And then, either Ezekiel is a book that's been scrambled, or Javan is even-more provably not Greece.

I never did understand why translators thought God gave them the authority to substitute the actual name for where they thought the nation went.

Douggg said:
Israel became a nation - one nation again - in a single day.

Humans attempting to fulfill prophecy doesn't count, Douggg.

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