Problem with Election

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Paul of Eugene OR

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I fully understand faith is not comatose. Someone is responding to something. The question is do we respond in our fallen state to the Gospel .

People say a person in a fallen state cannot respond to the gospel. But . . . . why does that follow? Seems to me that is simply an assumption.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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A mother, father, and their children were having a picnic in a small field next to a busy road. Two of their children were playing with a ball, and one accidentally kicked it into the road. The other child ran towards the street to retrieve the ball. The mother immediately sees what is happening and yells "STOP! DON'T GO INTO THE ROAD!" The child, rather distracted by the ball, does not really hear the words of his mother and continues running towards the street. Does a loving mother run after the child and stop them from getting run over by a car?
Does she take the child and have a lobotomy performed so that the child can never do anything risky again? This is what you are suggesting God is doing, unbeknowst to the anyone. And this God is supposed to be good.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Well, that's odd Dorothy. You accusing someone for fabricating the truth. Your accounts of Calvin murdering Servetus, and Calvin being buried in a unmarked grave. Were false accounts.
Calvin has been held by everyone except Calvinists as instrumental in the death of many men and women including torture. That is not fabricating. They really did die and he really was in charge of this. If he had been opposed to it, he would have preached differently.

Now on the matter of the grave of Calvin, I got that from an article by a genevaite. Since you challenged me here, I looked it up. The grave is unmarked but not as I described it. The history of the city shows that he was hated by some and anyone can understand this since the punishment for disagreeing with him was death, but he was not thrown into an unknown grave at his death, apparently. Strange the article I just read said he requested the grave be unmarked but since it is known where it is, it is marked despite his request.

However, I apologize for my communicating misinformation and I stand corrected. Thank you for your input and doing it rather mercifully. I appreciate it Ladodgers6. You did well and I was in error.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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People say a person in a fallen state cannot respond to the gospel. But . . . . why does that follow? Seems to me that is simply an assumption.
Correct. It is an assumption based on a serious of assumptions.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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No, I find nothing pertaining to what you're suggesting in Scripture. Either we have faith or we don't. If we have faith, it can be measured (or thus quantified).



Yes, in fact it does. God doesn't hand out faith for it to squandered and never retrieved (Hebrews 10).




100% agree. Real faith abides in obedience.



Amen. Hebrews 11 says this very thing! "By faith someone does something!"
God does not hand out faith. Does not work that way. How do we know? Because Jesus could not do miracles at a place and at one time blamed the disciples lack of faith for God not being to accomplish something. The men had too little faith. Now if God is responsible for handing out faith, that He handed too little and it was not the fault of the men despite what Jesus said. However, if faith is something we are responsible for, and that is my position for the most part, then it lies in our hands to have faith or not. This is done by how we choose to think. What we spent our mental energy on in guiding our reason. This is what we are told to guard our hearts and minds. There is fruit from what we steer our thining into.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Is the "God controls everything" a direct quote from someone, or are you being facetious?
Seems to accurately represent the view of some in how they think the sovereignity of God operates. I mean there are examples I can make note of for you. There are those who say God controls the person who is supposedly elected and cannot fail to be saved. He is making them (or some nicer sounding verb) repent and believe. Do you think that God does not control everyone?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I fully understand faith is not comatose. Someone is responding to something. The question is do we respond in our fallen state to the Gospel .
There is no indication in the Bible that God does anything but call a man. And God continually, from beginning to end, blames the man for the sin he does. He never blames himself or any "fallen state" that prevents the man from obeying God. Jesus said that we come because God draws. Since the Bible says God loves all men and wants all to come to salvation, we can assume he draws all men at some point in their lives. That is my belief. He does not tweek them so that they can repent. There is no word that God does anything in a man so that he can be saved. It is not there. This is a doctrine of men to relieve them of the responsiblity for their own eternity. Blame God instead. If you read what God said to the first man considering before hand a horrible sin, you will not find that God told that man that he has a sin nature or is fallen or cannot but sin. That is not God's viewpoint of man and sin. God hold each man responsible for the sin they commit. And each man will stand before God and be judged by the deeds done in the body in one way or another. No "fallen nature" mentioned by anyone.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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The Bible uses another verb:

Psalm 33:15
he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.
Notice God only considers it. He is not making them do everything they do. And this is true. Man makes choices and God makes choices based on what a man does. Scary but true.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Ultimately, by God giving them to Him: John 6
This is what I mean. The verse says nothing of the kind. (This is very typical of those who just put in a reference and hope no one really reads it.) And this is a good example of the theology that blames God for men going to hell. For you, it is ultimately God's fault is someone is not saved.

You see, this theology that says God gives people to Jesus might sound nice if you are a Christian. But it sounds really aweful if you are not. God is mean and low and cruel and arbitrary and anything but good. So I reject it entirely. It is also way too simple. Men come to Christ because God draws them and they agree to the requirements to come and come, put simply. Whether they stay or fall away is a different matter. God calls but a man has to come. Jesus will not reject them if they come. But he will not bind them with unbreakable cords if they do not come or leave once they came. There are always as free to walk away as the 70 did. Jesus did not run after them dragging them back. He let them go. Love will not put the beloved in a jail even if it means freedom is deadly.

So no, God is not ulitmatley or initially giving them like a Christmas present to Jesus. They ultimately decide to follow the call of God. That is how it works.
 
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redleghunter

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Seems to accurately represent the view of some in how they think the sovereignity of God operates. I mean there are examples I can make note of for you. There are those who say God controls the person who is supposedly elected and cannot fail to be saved. He is making them (or some nicer sounding verb) repent and believe. Do you think that God does not control everyone?
How does God's sovereignty operate? Please provide Scriptures.

Thanks
 
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redleghunter

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Dorothy Mae

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Don't think she said such a thing. Unless you believe Grace is a hand out? It is called a gift.
98said:
“Yes, in fact it does. God doesn't hand out faith for it to squandered and never retrieved (Hebrews 10).”
Which is clearly saying what I responded to. God doesn’t hand out faith at all. Her choice of verb, not mine. Faith is not a hand out. There is the gift of faith I know but that is different.
How does it exactly work? How do we earn faith?
Faith is not earned same as love is not earned. Courage is not earned. Integrity is not earned. The list is long of valuable traits gained or exercised but not earned. There is more than earning when it comes to character.
 
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Notice God only considers it. He is not making them do everything they do. And this is true. Man makes choices and God makes choices based on what a man does. Scary but true.

The logical conclusion of "Man makes choices and God makes choices based on what a man does." is that God does not know the future, that foreknowledge is excluded from the omniscience of God, neither could God's knowledge choices be in harmony with His attribute of immutability.

As for "He is not making them"

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined. - John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

"To will is of nature but to will aright is of grace." - Augustine

Chapter IX: Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuturonomy 30:19; Isaiah 7:11-12†; John 5:40†; James 4:7†).

2.
Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Genesis 1:26; Philippians 2:13‡; Colossians 3:10†); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Genesis 2:16-17; 3:6).

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Romans 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65†; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Romans 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6†; Ephesians 2:2-5; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Titus 3:3-5).

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Colossians 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Romans 6:6-7†); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Philippians 2:13; Romans 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8†, 10).

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Ephesians 4:13; Hebrews 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Revelation 21:27†).

—Westminster Confession of Faith (1643-49)
 
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ladodgers6

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Calvin has been held by everyone except Calvinists as instrumental in the death of many men and women including torture. That is not fabricating. They really did die and he really was in charge of this. If he had been opposed to it, he would have preached differently.

Now on the matter of the grave of Calvin, I got that from an article by a genevaite. Since you challenged me here, I looked it up. The grave is unmarked but not as I described it. The history of the city shows that he was hated by some and anyone can understand this since the punishment for disagreeing with him was death, but he was not thrown into an unknown grave at his death, apparently. Strange the article I just read said he requested the grave be unmarked but since it is known where it is, it is marked despite his request.

However, I apologize for my communicating misinformation and I stand corrected. Thank you for your input and doing it rather mercifully. I appreciate it Ladodgers6. You did well and I was in error.

Apology accepted!
 
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redleghunter

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There is no indication in the Bible that God does anything but call a man
That is a sovereign action of God. What happens during this call? Is it general or effectual?

The parable of the sower (Matthew 13) is instructive in this matter. There are several soils receiving the same seed and only one takes root and produces. One might say only the elect soil received the seed.
Some might see that as being unfair.

And God continually, from beginning to end, blames the man for the sin he does.
Of course. We are 100% responsible for our actions. That is why God justly condemns us. See Romans 3

He never blames himself or any "fallen state" that prevents the man from obeying God
Of course God would not blame Himself. However, our fallen state does prevent us from obeying God's Holy Law. Again, Romans 3 comes to mind refuting your claim. So does every reference to the bondage of sin leading to death (Romans 6).

We are in legal bondage. Meaning we are accountable to God's Holy Law under the sentence of condemnation:

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
[...]
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
(Romans 3:9–10, 19).

We are under the bondage of love of self and darkness.

This is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (John 3:19–20)

We are in bondage hating the supremacy (read sovereignty) of God:

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8)

And of course the bondage of spiritual death:

You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (Ephesians 2:1–3)

That is a lot to overcome on our own power and according to our own human will.

As children of wrath who love the dark, what do you think happens when the seed of the Gospel falls on such soil. See Matthew 13 again.

Yet God is merciful:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7)


Jesus said that we come because God draws.
Yes He makes us alive in spirit as we were dead before His calling. Once again confirming God is sovereign in this "process."

God loves all men and wants all to come to salvation, we can assume he draws all men at some point in their lives.
I know God loves His Creation. However, if everyone was "effectually" drawn then all would be universally saved. You don't need to assume, as the apostle gives us keen insight on this in Ephesians 1:

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly placesin Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

His Will, His Purpose, for His Glory alone.
That is my belief. He does not tweek them so that they can repent.
The Scriptures say He makes us alive.

Therefore your view keeps us all in bondage as pointed out earlier. You would have to substantiate here how a person without God's Holy Spirit can claim they are "good enough" to be able to see past the darkness while being spiritually dead to respond to the Gospel. It would be as if Lazarus had something to do with Jesus raising him.

There is no word that God does anything in a man so that he can be saved.
It surely does. He makes them alive (Ephesians 2:4-7).
And we cannot even see the Kingdom of God before being born of the Spirit:

John 3:NASB
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

[...]

7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Does not seem like we control when we born again. Once again a sovereign act of God.

It is not there.
Obviously it is as already shown above and in which I can provide more proof texts. However, I will wait for your proof texts showing mankind is sovereign in choosing God and can do so from a position of bondage.

This is a doctrine of men to relieve them of the responsiblity for their own eternity. Blame God instead.
This is your imagination at work.

First let me write Romans 3:20 over the top of this quote:
If you read what God said to the first man considering before hand a horrible sin, you will not find that God told that man that he has a sin nature or is fallen or cannot but sin.
Why did God kill an animal and use its skin to cover Adam and Eve?

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23)

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” (Mark 7:21-23)

That is not God's viewpoint of man and sin.
I'm sure you could substantiate the claim above?


Once again allow me to write Romans 3:20 over the top of this quote:
And each man will stand before God and be judged by the deeds done in the body in one way or another. No "fallen nature" mentioned by anyone.
If you cannot admit the spiritual deadness of our fallen nature, then you will have difficulties explaining why Jesus took our curse on His shoulders.
 
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redleghunter

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Faith is not earned same as love is not earned. Courage is not earned. Integrity is not earned. The list is long of valuable traits gained or exercised but not earned. There is more than earning when it comes to character.
It's all based on a foundation. Which for some becomes a stumbling block.
 
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redleghunter

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Notice God only considers it. He is not making them do everything they do. And this is true. Man makes choices and God makes choices based on what a man does. Scary but true.
Scary for two reasons.

1. This makes mankind sovereign in Salvation thus moving God's Hand.

2. This is the heresy of Pelagius.
 
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Radagast

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They really did die and he really was in charge of this.

No, he really wasn't "in charge" of executions in Geneva. That was up to the city council. Calvin was not a member of the city council.

You're making up history in order to tarnish the Biblical doctrine which is called Calvinism.
 
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sdowney717

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We see that "while dead" the person is fully capable of doing lots of 'trespasses and sins" and we see that God supernaturally "draws" that dead person -- which even by Calvinist standards the "drawing of God" enables all the "choice" that depravity disabled when it comes to accepting the Gospel

God draws no dead persons, He makes them alive who were dead, and teaches them Christ, then they believe and are sealed.

To be drawn means to be dragged, even compelled against their will to Christ.
All means everyone who hear and learns from the Father, all are are only those who He draws.

If you claim He draws all men as in each and every single person who has ever lived then your a liar as not all come to Christ. You are guilty of teaching heresy of universal salvation, even the natural evidence shows you not all are saved, not all have heard the gospel, so you are also living and believing a lie.

Individual being drawn
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

People from all over the earth being drawn, as in gentile nations, but not each and every person.
John 12:32 NKJV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
 
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sdowney717

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Blue letter bible shows the truth about the phrasing here for 'all' and 'men' and 'unto'
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

John 12:32, all means either 'all' or 'some of all types', you cannot blindly say all always means every single person.
I will draw collectively some of all types unto me

By the way men is not in their it has been added by translators
'I will draw all types (of men) unto me'
The phrase 'men unto' is simply 'unto', look up how G4314 is translated into english.
 
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