Why Free Will is Exaltation of Men Instead of God !

Jennifer Rothnie said:

Even God doesn't have Free Will by that definition, as He cannot freely choose to violate His own character or violate His own logic or promises. He then is constrained to make certain choices (most wise, just, loving, etc.) in preference to others from the beginning.

Free will is not a matter of being 'neutral' about choices before making them. Free will is actually limited will - everyone (including God) has limits on what they can pick based on nature, logic, power, etc.

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All right then. We might need to speak of it as limited will. The issue here is not what God does, but the notion that we are completely on our own when it comes to conversion.

ladodgers6 said:

What's your view on sin? Do you believe sinners are bondage to sin?

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Before salvation, yes. Even after it has an effect on us till confessed and turned away from. Sin after salvation interrupts our communicating with the Holy Spirit till it's dealt with, IMO. Speaking for myself ( you asked my view, I assume you mean personal view) and I am saved, if I have known sin I will be anxious till I confess it and get immediate relief once done.

Doug Melven said:

When I see the sun I have a choice. I can continue to look, or put sunglasses on or deny the sun access to me by going inside.
When people who are lost, see the Son, they have a choice. Accept or reject.
Jesus, the Sower of the Word, sows the Seed on all kinds of ground.
The wayside, where Satan steals the Word.
Rocky ground, where they only last for a little while.
Thorny ground, where the Word gets choked and becomes unfruitful.
And finally, good ground, where it bears much fruit.

In the last 3 types of ground, the Word is received, but doesn't always result in fruit because of our choices.

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Disagree saint... once the light enters your eyes you cannot "unsee" what you saw. You have the revelation and that is all it takes. Any other additions would be works. Faith comes by seeing that light. That is what gets you in the door. That is His work in you. He word does not return to Him void.
Odd having to explain saving grace to people... to convince them that Jesus saved us, and that faith, not works, is what saves us. There is nothing you can or need to add to basic salvation. He did it all. It is all pure grace. Unmerited favor. We are completely undeserving. We add nothing to His work. You were saved by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. What are you going to add to that? Merely mentally assenting to these historic facts is not faith. Many unsaved people mentally assent to the facts of the gospel... but they have no light. I did for years. Then He shined the light, the living word into me and it was over. I was born again by the entrance of that light. I added nothing to this. Not a decision, not a commitment, not an acceptance or a rejection. My mind could have balked at it. It many not have even wanted to accept it. That is possible. We trick ourselves into thinking that we are in control. We want to believe our choices and wisdom makes a difference. If making good choices and having wisdom were what got people saved... then the intelligent and the well educated would overrun the pews of our churches. They do not. To the contrary.. those who are able to make good choices almost never choose Christ because as Paul said, they cannot even perceive these things and count them as foolish. When I stand before the BEMA seat, I will have nothing. No boasting about being wise and making good choices and that is why I am saved. Nope. I have nothing but His grace and mercy. He saved me and brought me all the way through.
As Paul said:
Galatians 3
1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Not suggesting that anyone here approaches the error held by the Galatians. But the logic is there. Nothing added to faith. Just hearing. Hearing alone is was does it. Revelation. creates faith. You can act on it or not. That does not make it more or less. Of course it is best to act on it! But that action does not add to it.. .it is merely the outward manifestation of it.

Jennifer Rothnie said:

But even God has limited choices by His own nature. He can't lie, can't miss the mark of righteousness, can't do something contrary to His character, cannot revenge on a promise, etc.

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If anything, you are showing us that the term freewill is definitely not to be taken literally when applied to men, yet it is so common for people to talk as though that is the way we operate when it comes to conversion..

Jennifer Rothnie said:

Neither of these are Biblical views of human action and choice. In scripture, man is presented as having a fallen sin nature and so is incapable of achieving salvation via 100% perfection, as every man will fall short of the glory of God. However, man is never presented as unable to do good or to will good at all! Man is never presented as 'having' to choose sin in any given situation or 'unable' to choose the righteous option. That misconception is frequently debunked in scripture:

General examples:

"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, l "Do not commit adultery," also said, l "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law." James 2:10-11 (We see here that is not the incapability of man to follow a law or reject evil in some cases that is the issue, but that *any single point* of transgression causes the man to become a lawbreaker.

""From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. His purpose (will) was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him--though he is not far from any one of us." Acts 17:26-27 (Seeking after God and feeling their way to God certainly sounds like the ability to will/do something good. And it was God's purpose to make man with this ability!)

"'The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.' If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done." Ezek 33:12-13" (This certainly sounds like God is saying that man has the ability and choice to choose righteousness or wickedness in any given action. However, no amount of righteous actions one does will save someone who transgresses yet trusts in their own, personal righteousness. Yet God will not remember the former wickedness of the repentant. Sounds a lot like the gospel! Those who trust in their own merit, not Christ's, will fail for even a single transgression and all their righteousness deeds (which they had the ability to choose, obviously) will not help them. Those who repent and trust in Christ's work, not their own, will be declared righteous for Christ's sake and God will not hold their wicked deeds against them.)

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves...They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)..." Rom 2:13-16" (Hmm, Gentiles *following the law* - and because their own conscience and thoughts have chosen to? That certainly sounds like the ability to do/will good to me!)

Specific examples of non-Christians willing/doing good:

- Ahab's (temporary) humility: "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day..." I Kings 21:49

"At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius,...He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly...The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God." Acts 10:1-4

Nebuchadnezzar: "... Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation....Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble." Dan 4

Sailors: At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to him. Jonah 1:16 (Note that they did these good acts because they feared the Lord, not because God made them do it.)

- Ahab's (temporary) humility: "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day..." I Kings 21:49

Etc.

Again, the inability of fallen man to achieve salvation via personal merit does *not* support the unBiblical view that fallen man is incapable of doing or willing anything good or righteous.

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I hope you read my complete post. I free with this. Would you agree that sinners have a Free-Wil to sin? Or are they forced to sin?

Dave G. said:

Before salvation, yes. Even after it has an effect on us till confessed and turned away from. Sin after salvation interrupts our communicating with the Holy Spirit till it's dealt with, IMO. Speaking for myself ( you asked my view, I assume you mean personal view) and I am saved, if I have known sin I will be anxious till I confess it and get immediate relief once done.

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Thanks for sharing. Thanks for being honest?


Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Nice statement on free will in the Second Helevetic Confession (1566):

Chapter IX: Of Free-Will, and So of Man’s Power and Ability [cf. CA XVIII]

1. [1.] We teach in this matter, which at all times has been the cause of many conflicts in the Church, that there is a triple condition or estate of man to be considered. What Man Was Before the Fall. First, what man was before his fall—to wit, upright and free, who might both continue in goodness and decline to evil; but he declined to evil, and has wrapped both himself and all mankind in sin and death, as has been shown before.

2. [2.] What Man Was After the Fall. Secondly, we are to consider what man was after his fall. His understanding, indeed, was not taken from him, neither was he deprived of his will, and altogether changed into a stone or stock. Nevertheless, these things are so altered in man that they are not able to do that now which they could do before his fall. For his understanding is darkened, and his will, which before was free, is now become servile will; for it serveth sin, not nilling, but willing 3.—for it called a will, and not a nill. Man Does Evil by His Own Free Will. Therefore as touching evil or sin, man does evil, not compelled either by God or the devil, but of his own accord; and in this respect he has a most free will.

[3.] But whereas we see that oftentimes the most evil deeds and counsels of man are hindered by God, that they can not attain their end, this does not take from man liberty in evil, but God by his power does prevent that which man otherwise purposed freely: as Joseph’s brethren did freely purpose to slay Joseph; but they were not able to do it, because it seemed otherwise good to God in his secret counsel (Genesis 37:18ff.‡ [cf. Genesis 45:5, 7‡; 50:20‡]).

4. [4.] Man Is Not Capable of Good Per Se. But, as touching goodness and virtues, man’s understanding does not of itself judge aright of heavenly things. For the evangelical and apostolical Scripture requires regeneration of every one of us that will be saved. Wherefore our first birth from Adam doth nothing profit us to salvation. Paul says, “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit,” etc. (1 Corinthians 2:14). The same Paul elsewhere denies that we are “sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves” (2 Corinthians 3:5; Cf. Romans 7:18†)

5. Now, it is evident that the mind or understanding is the guide of the will; and, seeing the guide is blind, it is easy to be seen how far the will can reach. Therefore man, not as yet regenerate, has no free-will to good, no strength to perform that which is good. The Lord says in the Gospel, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever commiteth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). And Paul the Apostle says, “The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Romans 8:7).

6. [5.] Furthermore, there is some understanding of earthly things remaining in man after his fall. Understanding of the Arts. For God has of mercy left him wit, though much differing from that which was in him before his fall. God commands us to garnish our wit, and therewithal he gives gifts and also the increase thereof. And it is a clear case that we can profit very little in all arts without the blessing of God. The Scripture, no doubt, refers all arts to God; yea, and the Gentiles also ascribe the beginnings of arts to the gods, as the authors thereof.

7. [6.] Of What Kind Are the Powers of the Regenerate, and in What Way Their Wills Are Free. Lastly, we are to consider whether the regenerate have free-will, and how far they have it. In regeneration the understanding is illuminated by the Holy Spirit, that it may understand both the mysteries and will of God. And the will itself is not only changed by the Spirit, but it is also endued with faculties, that, of its own accord, it may both will and do good (Romans 8:4). Unless we grant this, we shall deny Christian liberty, and bring in the bondage of the law. Besides, the prophet brings in God speaking thus: “I will put my laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts” (Jer 31:33; Ezek 36:26-27). The Lord also says in the Gospel, “If the Son make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36). Paul also to the Philippians, “Unto you is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Phil 1:29; John 15:5†). And, again, “I am persuaded that he that began this good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6†). Also, “It is God that worketh in you the will and the deed” (Phil 2:13).

8. [7.] The Regenerate Work Not Only Passively but Actively. Where, nevertheless, we teach that there are two things to be observed—first, that the regenerate, in the choice and working of that which is good, do not only work passively, but actively; for they moved of God that themselves may do that which they do (Phil 2:12†). And Augustine does truly allege that saying that “God is said to be our helper (Psalms 27:9†); but no man can be helped but he that does somewhat” (Augustine, Sermones 13.3; 156.11). The Manichaeans did bereave man of all action, and made him like a stone and a block.

9. The Free Will Is Weak in the Regenerate. Secondly, that in the regenerate there remains infirmity. For, seeing that sin dwells in us, and that the flesh in the regenerate strives against the Spirit, even to our lives’ end, they do not readily perform in every point that which they had purposed. These things are confirmed by the apostle (Romans 7:13-25; Galatians 5:17).

10. Therefore, all free-will is weak by reason of the relics of the old Adam remaining in us so long as we live, and of the human corruption which so nearly cleaves to us. In the meanwhile, because the strength of the flesh and the relics of the old man are not of such great force that they can wholly quench the work of the Spirit, therefore the faithful are called free, yet so that they do acknowledge their infirmity, and glory no whit at all in their free-will. For that which St. Augustine does repeat so often out of the apostle ought always to be kept in mind by the faithful: “What hast thou that thou didst not receive? and if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not receive it?” (1 Cor 4:7†; cf. Augustine, Contra duas epistulas Pelagionorum ad Bonifatium 4.9.25; Sermones 13.3) Hitherto may be added that that comes not straightway to pass which we have purposed, for the events of things are in the hand of God. For which the cause Paul besought the Lord that he would prosper his journey (Romans 1:10). Wherefore, in this respect also, free-will is very weak.

11. [8.] In External Things There Is Liberty. But in outward things no man denies but that both the regenerate and the unregenerate have their free-will; for man hath this constitution common with other creatures (to whom he is not inferior) to will some things and to nill other things. So he may speak or keep silence, go out of his house or abide within. Although herein also God’s power is evermore to be marked, which brought to pass that Balaam could not go so far as he would (Numbers 24:13), and that Zacharias, coming out of the Temple, could not speak as he would have done (Luke 1:22).

12. [9.] Heresies. In this matter we condemn the Manichaeans, who deny that the beginning of evil unto man, being good, came from his free-will. We condemn also, the Pelagians, who affirm that an evil man has a free-will sufficiently to perform a good precept. Both these are confuted by the Scripture, which says to the former, “God made man upright” (Eccl 7:29†); and to the latter, “If the Son make you free, then ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36†).

John tower said:

Hey brother Didaskalos : Why do so few understand these simple obvious truths : Mt 13(11), 1 Cor 2, John 6(44): etc . Rom 13(1), Eph 1(11)

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I said I believe 100% your opening post. I am sharing something with you. So that you will understand it. I am not saying sinners can choose God. God has to choose them, to save them. But nobody forces sinners to sin, correct? They sin willingly! I am talking about their Total Deprave plight.

ladodgers6 said:

I said I believe 100% your opening post. I am sharing something with you. So that you will understand it. I am not saying sinners can choose God. God has to choose them, to save them. But nobody forces sinners to sin, correct? They sin willingly! I am talking about their Total Deprave plight.

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It's even more than willing it's basically by nature LOL !

John tower said:

The standard teaching in the present day churches is that yes, we cannot save ourselves : That the only thing we have is our own free will, to either choose or reject God . Well does the Bible teach that we choose God of our own free will ? JOHN 1 ( 13) : ” Which were born NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN , BUT OF GOD ! ” ROMANS 9 ( 16 ) : ” So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH , BUT OF GOD . ” JAMES 1 ( 18 ) : ” OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word . ” So according to the Bible : It is NOT OF MAN’S WILL , BUT ONLY GOD’S WILL ! EPHESIANS 1 ( 11 ) : ” Him who works ALL THINGS AFTER the counsel of HIS OWN WILL . ” : ALL THINGS AFTER HIS WILL LEAVES NO PLACE FOR OUR OWN SUPPOSED FREE WILL ! So this teaching that man has his own free will is completely contrary to scripture : It falsely exalts man with power that he in truth does not have. Well you might ask : Why did not God not give man his own free will ? HEBREWS 12 ( 2 ) : ” Looking unto JESUS , THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! ” : So CHRIST IS THE SOLE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! THERE IS NO ONE BETTER QUALIFIED THAN CHRIST TO TRAIN US : CERTAINLY NOT OURSELVES : SO THIS IS PRECISELY WHY CHRIST DID NOT GIVE US A FREE WILL , BECAUSE ONLY CHRIST CAN DO A PROPER JOB ! Only CHRIST knows what things we need to learn , we do not know these things : so what in the world would we do with a free will if such a thing existed : Answer : We wouldn’t have a clue , which is of course why CHRIST did not give us a free will : WE ARE JUST CLAY IN THE GREAT POTTERS HANDS , and thank God , no one can do a better job then God! PHILIPPIANS 1 ( 6 ) : ” He which began a good work in you will continue it unto the day of CHRIST . ” : He began it , not us , and he will finish it not us ! PHILIPPIANS 2 ( 13 ) : ” For IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU , BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE ” : GOD NOT US ! This is solely the work of God : to say that man has any part in it is falsely exalting man : usurping the work of God and falsely placing it in man’s hands : an obvious blasphemy against God , and it is widely taught in the mainstream churches, and needs to be exposed for the blasphemy that it is ! EPHESIANS 2 ( 8-10 ) : 8 : ” For by grace are you saved through faith, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift OF GOD ” 9 : ” NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST ” 10 : ” For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP ” Nothing of ourselves! ROMANS 13 ( 1 ) : ” THERE IS NO POWER BUT GOD ! ” No room here for man to have his own power of free will : No power but God. PSALMS 65 ( 4 ) : ” Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST AND CAUSEST TO APPROACH UNTO THEE . ” : God chooses his elect , and God causes them to come to him by his call, not us by our own supposed free will : totally unscriptural ! Choosing God would of course be a good thing to do, and if we really did choose God of our own free will we would be at least partially righteous, because choosing God would be a good thing, but such is definitely not the case as the Bible clearly says there are non righteous because we do not have the power to come to God of our own will as CHRIST clearly says in JOHN 6 ( 44 ) : ” No man can come to me unless THE FATHER DRAWS HIM . ” : ONLY THE FATHER CAN DRAW HIM : HE CANNOT COME OF HIS OWN POWER !

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You've listed a lot of scripture fragments out of context, but not of them actually support your proposal that fallen man does not have the ability to come to Christ in faith upon hearing the gospel.

Let's go through them:

John 1:12-13: "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

By quoting only the last fragment of this verse, you obscure the point that it is only those who receive Him and believe who are given the right to *become* children of God. The birth follows the belief! The new birth is by God's will, not by a physical couple coming together or a human willing himself to become a new creation. How does this new birth as children of God happen? First by believers being given the Spirit, who transforms our hearts and minds. Then literally at the judgement when we receive new spiritual bodies, so we no longer have a sin nature and can enter the kingdom as God's children.

'Receive' in this passage is the Greek lambanó: to take, receive, which clearly shows the volition and active acceptance of the person taking the gift.
Strong's Greek: 2983. λαμβάνω (lambanó) -- to take, receive

Rom 9:16: This entire chapter is about God's choice in opening the gospel up to the Gentiles and not restricting it to the Jews, and that God was not wrong to make the Jewish people or harden them in their disbelief so that Christ would be crucified and mercy given to other nations. It is also about God's sovereignty over history and the gospel plan. Earthly kings and leaders might have their own plans for inheritance and conquest, but God is supreme and can override that. Rom 9:16 specifically is in reference to God choosing Jacob and not Esau before they were born - it wasn't up to their own will in life as to what their destiny would be; God had pre-chosen that His people would come through Jacob.

There is nothing in the context of this passage which would make it give a hidden meaning that God selects some individuals to have faith and deliberately keeps others in their fallen nature so they can never have faith.

James 1:18: "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created."

In context, this passage is about believers. He chose to give believers, the brothers and sisters in Christ, birth through the word of truth. The new birth follows belief, and there is no way to pull out of this passage any hint that it could come prior. I Pet 1:23 and Rom 8:23-24 are in the same vein. The believer's new birth is by the power of the Spirit, not by our own will or works of righteousness.

Eph 1:11-14: "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

Again, the fragment you quote is out of context and doesn't support your view. Who is the chapter written to? "the faithful in Christ Jesus." Eph 1:11-14 specifically deals with two groups - Jewish believers and Gentile believers, as Paul designates by 'us' vs. 'you' - but in both cases they are believers!

So in this passage, Paul shows that Jewish believers were chosen, predestined according to God's plan, so that they could be to the praise of God's glory as the first to trust in Christ. (E.g., the blessing to the nations coming through Israel.) They weren't chosen 'to believe' - nothing in the chapter says that. If you read the rest of the chapter, you will see that this selection and predestination is for believers to be holy, redeemed, adopted as sons, forgiven, etc. - not so that they will believe!

And the second group, the Gentile believers? They were not included because they were pre-selected. They were included when they heard the gospel and believed. Only then were they marked with the seal of the Holy Spirit and then included among those who are God's possession, inheriting all the predestined promises that Jewish believers have on adoption, forgiveness, holiness, etc.

Heb 12: Here your fragment suffers from a common misunderstanding do to bad translation. The Greek 'archégos' means 'the first in a long procession'; the founder of a movement or a file-leader; a pioneer. It does not mean 'author' as in to make or write something. Jesus is the first in procession and the founder of our faith as He is firstborn among many brethren (Rom 8:28-30), and through Him we receive the promise of the Spirit (Gal 3:13-14). It is His life and teachings we look to - without Him there would be no Christians to follow Christ!

Heb 5:8-9 clarifies this even further: ""Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect (finished), he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him."

He became the source of salvation *for those who obey (repent and turn in faith) - He didn't somehow become their obedience.

Christ finishes us/perfects us by refining us as we walk with Him, such as in I Pet 1:3-11, Rom 1, Phil 2:1-18, Eph 6:10-20, James 1:2-8, Rom 8:28-29, etc. We are conformed to Christ as we abide in Him.

Eph 2:8-10: Here your quote suffers from another misinterpretation. "Faith" is not the gift of God mentioned in Eph 8 - that rendering is impossible in the Greek. 'Faith' and 'grace' are in the feminine gender, but the gift of God is in the neuter gender. In Greek, this then applies the 'gift' to the entire clause. The gift is our salvation, by grace and through faith! Man doesn't 'earn' salvation by faith; God chose faith as the criteria by which he freely bestows salvation as a gift, not an earned reward.

[More here:
Question: What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?
See Answer: What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?]

Faith is not a work. Turning to God in faith is not a work. Nowhere in scripture is faith treated as a work, nor is it or claimed that it would be like a work if man had the free ability to respond in faith. Faith is in every way contrasted with works of righteousness or any other reason to boast.

[Question: What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?
See Answer: What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?]

Part #2, the rest of the verses:


ROMANS 13:1: This fragment is greatly out of context to the point where you've landed on the exact opposite of what it actually says! It does not say, 'there is no power but God' but rather "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." So, there *are* powers and authorities besides God, but they are all lesser powers. They can't even act at all except that God has first set up the laws of nature, their own existences, the extent of their territories, etc. Other lesser powers and authorities, limited in nature and subject to God's laws and able to be overridden by God's plan, are mentioned frequently in scripture, such as in Eph 6:12. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." The passage itself also hints at the agency and power of individuals - as why tell us to submit to authorities if we did not a) have at least some ability to resist them and b) be potentially able to choose to resist them?

Psalm 65:3-4: "
"When we were overwhelmed by sins,
you forgave our transgressions.
Blessed are those you choose
and bring near to live in your courts!
We are filled with the good things of your house,
of your holy temple."

This passage has nothing to do with choosing certain people to be saved or to have faith. Rather, it is about God's people who *already follow Him and have been forgiven* being blessed as God chooses to bring them near to live in His own courts, supplying them with the good things of His Temple.

John 6:44: "“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

All Christians would agree that we couldn't come to the Father without the Father somehow first reaching out to us. God offered salvation - we didn't demand it. God brought salvation, we didn't achieve it. God revealed salvation - we didn't know of it. Etc.

What this verse shows is that the Father's draw is a prerequisite to anyone being able to come to Christ. It doesn't say that the Father only chooses some to draw and not others. In fact, John 6:40 reveals what the Father's will is regarding who Christ will raise, and it isn't people He arbitrarily selects to get faith! "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”" Jn 6:40

Jesus spoke these words prior to His death, but other scriptures clarify that the Father has revealed Christ to all men by Christ's death/resurrection so that any can believe and come to Christ and hence be raised up on the last day.

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jn 12:32 [Post Jesus' death, all men would be drawn to Him! The prerequisite for all is met - now anyone may believe and come!]

While Christ did the work and visible testimony by his death/resurrection, this revelation had its source in the will of the Father:

"So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me." Jn 8:28

It's like if an usher at a door were to say, "You cannot enter this building unless the owner offers you a ticket, and I will seat anyone coming in with a ticket." Would that automatically mean that the owner had plans to only distribute tickets to some people outside, and to force those few people to take tickets, then drag them into the building? Would it mean that the owner never planned to offer tickets to people he didn't choose? Would it mean that he planned to offer tickets to all, but that no one outside was capable of taking the offer, so the owner planned to pick out a few to change their hearts so they must take the ticket? Etc. - None of those conclusions is logically mandated by the statement. And if the usher later said, "I've been authorized by the owner to distribute free tickets to everyone outside - who wants one?" wouldn't that show that while a ticket is necessary to enter, it is available to all?


Basically, out of context verse fragments and phrases smooshed together do not support a view. The context of many of those verses and passages directly says the opposite or is clearly about something else, and in no verse given was man's inability to have faith the only logical possibility from the text.

Albion said:

All right then. We might need to speak of it as limited will. The issue here is not what God does, but the notion that we are completely on our own when it comes to conversion.

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No one thinks we are completely on our own when it comes to conversion. Every Christian holds to at least the necessity of 1) God offering salvation through faith in Christ, 2) God bringing/accomplishing salvation through the work of Christ, 3) The Earthly revelation of the work of Christ and the gospel message 3) The testimony of Christ, etc.

So even at the bare minimum, Christians believe that salvation is accomplished by Christ, by the gracious offer of the Father, and we only know about it because of God's grace as well. That's a far cry from 'on our own!'

Imagine a tyrant enslaves a kingdom, but a foreign prince comes and liberates the kingdom. The prince offers to let anyone who wants come with Him to His own kingdom. Some choose to leave with the prince and follow him, while others choose to stay under the oppression of the tyrant - whether with the excuse that it isn't really that bad, or the fear that the prince won't lead them to a better place, etc.

In what way could it be said that the people who leave with the prince were entirely on their own in their transition between kingdoms? If they had been on their own, they'd still be enslaved. Only by the message, actions, and offer of the prince can they now decide to follow Him.

Even then, the prince would keep guiding and protecting them until the destination!

The Israelites certainly had a small part in the escape from Egypt - they had to leave Egypt and they had to continue following God. But they didn't accomplish their own deliverance/salvation. They didn't send the plagues. They didn't bring the quail or bring water from rocks. They didn't kill Pharaoh's army. They weren't the Pillar of Fire and Cloud. Basically, their 'part' was just choosing to follow God as His people - something they didn't always do and frequently rebelled. The Salvation was God's doing.

John tower said:

The standard teaching in the present day churches is that yes, we cannot save ourselves : That the only thing we have is our own free will, to either choose or reject God .

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Which really is not all that helpful huh?

John tower said:

Well does the Bible teach that we choose God of our own free will ?
JOHN 1 ( 13) : ” Which were born NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN , BUT OF GOD ! ”

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Free will denied, regeneration is monergistic, yes.

John tower said:

ROMANS 9 ( 16 ) : ” So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH , BUT OF GOD . ”

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Election, God chose us, we did not FIRST choose Him.

John tower said:

JAMES 1 ( 18 ) : ” OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word . ” So according to the Bible : It is NOT OF MAN’S WILL , BUT ONLY GOD’S WILL !

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Election and Regeneration made effectual by GOD alone.

Maybe later I will have time to respond further

John tower said:

Faith is the gift of God, not anything of our works : Eph 2(8-10)

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In Eph 2:8, 'Faith' and 'grace' are in the feminine gender, but the gift of God is in the neuter gender. In Greek, this then applies the 'gift' to the entirety of the antecedent clause - not to any one particular word like grace or faith. This isn't an ambiguous rule in the Greek There is no way from the Greek manuscripts to make 'faith' the gift in this verse.
Ephesians 2:8 Lexicon: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Paul is saying to believers that the gift of God is that 'you have been saved, by grace and through faith.' The process of salvation is taken as a whole in regards to source, reason, and mechanism. Paul contrasts salvation by grace and through faith with 'works', for man cannot achieve salvation by his own merit.

It's a similar train of thought to Rom 5:18-21. While we were all condemned by the law and sin reigned, the death of Christ brought justification by His own blood. In this grace reigns (the 'by'), through righteousness and through Jesus (the process), to bring eternal life (the 'what').

The process is given in even more detail in Rom 3:22-26: Righteousness is given through faith to all who believe. We are justified by grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God displayed Christ publicly (grace) as a propitiation (atoning sacrifice) whose blood is applied to us through faith.

These and other similar passages are summaries of the gospel; that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We receive Him by faith and are justified, receiving the righteousness of Christ in place of our own sins, and will never perish but will have eternal life. (Tit 3:3-8, Heb 10:22, II Tim 1:9-11, 2 Corinthians 5:21)

We only have the offer of salvation because of grace. Because we could not save ourselves, God the Father in his mercy and grace sent His only begotten Son to die for the ungodly as propitiation, an atoning sacrifice, on behalf of our sins. (Rom 3:25, Rom 5:6-8, Rom 5:15-17, John 12:32, John 3:14-17). Salvation is by grace (Rom 11:6), not works, so that man can never boast. (Rom 6:19-23, Eph 2:8-9, Is 63:4-5, Rom 8:1-4, Acts 13:39, Phil 3:7-9, etc.) How great a salvation is this! It does not come by our merit, but by God's grace. It does not come through our dead works, but through our belief in the Messiah (John 6:28-29, John 3:16). It is a salvation beyond the capacity of man to achieve or offer.

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Rom 5:15 (the gift here in the chapter being believers being saved through Jesus' life and justified unto eternal life - again not 'faith.')

"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." Tit 3:4-7

Salvation is through faith; more specifically, through faith in the person and work of Christ who died for our sins. It is through faith that we are justified (Rom 5:1, Rom 3:24-30); through faith that we enter the covenant with Christ; through faith we are reconciled to God and may approach Him (Rom 5:1-11, Eph 3:12); through faith that we have access into the peculiar grace a believer stands in (Rom 5:2); through faith we are raised with Christ and receive the righteousness of Christ imputed to us (Col 2:11-13, Rom 6:4, Rom 3:22, Phil 3:9, Acts 13:39); through faith we are shielded by God's power until the coming of salvation (I Pet 1:5); through faith we inherit what has been promised (Heb 6:12); through faith Christ dwells in our hearts (Eph 3:17), through faith we hold eternal life (John 3:16).

"...In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time....for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls." -I Pet 1:3-9