OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

Major1 said:

God bless your heart brother. You are actually showing everyone on this site the reason why your theology is so wrong. You are doing more to harm your opinions and denounce your false teaching than anyone here who is debating with you.

I encourage you to do some Christian 101 Basic teaching studies.

SIMPLY and BIBLICALLY may I help you to understand that when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God gave them skins to cover up with (Genesis 3:21). To get those skins, some animal had to die. In other words, God sacrificed an animal to cover their sin. From the beginning, God has declared the payment for sin is death, and so blood must be shed to cover sin and that my dear friend is and always has been SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT!

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I had a hamburger today. Does that mean that cow is a substitutionary atonement, because it had to die so that I may eat?

The animal killed for Adam and Eve was not a substitutionary atonement. It was to clothe them, period! You keep adding what is not in the text.

As I told you before, if your Christian 101 is on a faulty foundation, your building will not stand.

Believing in the substitutionary atonement is an essential for salvation. Praying for you, @EmSw.

justbyfaith said:

Believing in the substitutionary atonement is an essential for salvation. Praying for you, @EmSw.

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And just where did Jesus say this? If Jesus has the words of life, surely He would have mentioned a substitutionary atonement. Don't you think?

Here are His words of life -

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He didn't say anybody was going to substitute for anybody. Rather, if YOU want to enter life, YOU keep the commandments. You are responsible for your own salvation.

EmSw said:

I had a hamburger today. Does that mean that cow is a substitutionary atonement, because it had to die so that I may eat?

The animal killed for Adam and Eve was not a substitutionary atonement. It was to clothe them, period! You keep adding what is not in the text.

As I told you before, if your Christian 101 is on a faulty foundation, your building will not stand.

Click to expand...

God bless you my friend. I am very sorry that your education has harmed in such a way that you can not grasp one of the most important doctrines in the Bible.

Leviticus 17:11
for the life of the body is in its blood. I have given you the blood on the altar to purify you, making you right with the LORD. It is the blood, given in exchange for a life, that makes purification possible.

Leviticus 4:35
Then he must remove all the sheep’s fat, just as he does with the fat of a sheep presented as a peace offering. He will burn the fat on the altar on top of the special gifts presented to the LORD. Through this process, the priest will purify the people from their sin, making them right with the LORD, and they will be forgiven.

2 Chronicles 35:11
The Levites then slaughtered the Passover lambs and presented the blood to the priests, who sprinkled the blood on the altar while the Levites prepared the animals.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Corinthians 5:7
Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us.

Romans 8:3
The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

Isaiah 53:4-6
Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!
5But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.

Isaiah 53:10-11
But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him
and cause him grief.
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
he will have many descendants.
He will enjoy a long life,
and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
11When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
And because of his experience,
my righteous servant will make it possible
for many to be counted righteous,
for he will bear all their sins.

Galatians 3:13
But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)

Romans 3:25-26
For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Romans 4:25
He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.

1 Peter 3:18
Christ suffered for our sins once for all time*. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

EmSw said:

Now you get to Basics 101. To do that you must start with the first mention of Passover. There you will find no mention of any atonement for sins. You have added this atonement. You take this false premise and run with it, as you have done above.

Get the foundation built right, before you start building upon it.

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Jesus is the center of both Passover and Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), just as He is the center of all of the Hebraic feasts, festivals, and holy days. The main thing that Passover and Yom Kippur have in common is that both involve blood sacrifices for sin, since it is by blood that God's atonement is made (Leviticus 17:11).

Both Passover and Yom Kippur focus on "liberation" but in different ways. Israel was liberated from bondage to slavery in Egypt by the blood of lambs on the first Passover. Similarly, mankind was liberated from bondage to sin by the blood of Jesus on the cross on Passover; He was the Lamb of God, who took away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

On Passover, the only animals sacrificed were lambs (Exodus 12:3). The high priest sacrificed a national lamb, and all the people sacrificed their own lambs and then ate them (12:7,8). So the people were expected to participate in the process, and any who did not were cut off (Numbers 9:13).

Now, on Yom Kippur, the high priest again was involved, but numerous animals (a bull, a ram, goats, and lambs) were sacrificed (Numbers 29:7-11). The people themselves were not involved in any of the sacrificing, and none of the animals sacrificed by the high priest were eaten by the general populace. In fact, Yom Kippur was/is a solemn day of fasting and denying oneself, rather than of joyous feasting and celebration.

Jesus, as Israel's ultimate High Priest (Hebrews 2:17), fulfilled Passover during His first advent by sacrificing Himself on the cross as the supreme Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7). Again as the ultimate High Priest, He will fulfill Yom Kippur at His second advent (bodily descent) back to earth by slaughtering, as a sacrifice, the armies of those who are destroying Jerusalem and Israel as though these armies are lambs, goats, rams, and bulls:

The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood, it is covered with fat—the blood of lambs and goats, fat from the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom. And the wild oxen will fall with them, the bull calves and the great bulls. Their land will be drenched with blood, and the dust will be soaked with fat. (Isaiah 34:6,7)

Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: "Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan.

At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk." (Ezekiel 39:17-19) Both Passover and Yom Kippur involve the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins (Hebrews 9:22). Those who voluntarily have recognized Jesus as our Passover Lamb and have accepted His blood atonement for their sins are exempt from God's wrath, nor are they separated from Him after death. However, as a whole, Israel has not done this, since the people have not recognized Jesus as their Messiah nor His blood atonement for their sins.

How does the blood atonement of Passover differ from the blood atonement of Yom Kippur?

EmSw said:

I'm very serious. The wicked who turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, will live, and not die. What does it mean he will not die? Does it mean he has eternal life?

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Unlike animals, humans also possess a spiritual dimension—made in God’s own image—that transcends the body and physical life on Earth (Genesis 1:26-27). God places within each prenatal person at conception a spirit that makes each individual a unique personality that will survive physical death, living on immortally throughout eternity (Zechariah 12:1). At death, the spirit separates from the body and exists in a conscious condition in the spirit realm (Genesis 35:18; 1 Kings 17:21-22). Thus the Bible defines “death” as “separation”—not “extinction” or “annihilation” (Thayer, 1901, p. 282; Vine, 1940, p. 276). Since “the body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26), the separation of one’s spirit from one’s body results in the physical death of the body. But what about the spirit?
Afterlife and the Bible

EmSw said:

I had a hamburger today. Does that mean that cow is a substitutionary atonement, because it had to die so that I may eat?

The animal killed for Adam and Eve was not a substitutionary atonement. It was to clothe them, period! You keep adding what is not in the text.

As I told you before, if your Christian 101 is on a faulty foundation, your building will not stand.

Click to expand...

So you think that eating cows is equal to substitutionary atonement. ????

You are equating God killing an animal to covering Adams sin to eating a hamburger.

YOU did not have to eat that burger did YOU?

But the families at Passover HAD TO kill an animal and put its blood on their doorpost or the oldest child bur die. The death angel would see the blood and PASSOVER that house.

I guess you have not read that Scripture yet. Its there! An animal was slain, its blood shed in order to save a life!

Have you read about Abraham and Isaac yet?? Same thing happened there as well.

EmSw said:

And just where did Jesus say this? If Jesus has the words of life, surely He would have mentioned a substitutionary atonement. Don't you think?

Here are His words of life -

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He didn't say anybody was going to substitute for anybody. Rather, if YOU want to enter life, YOU keep the commandments. You are responsible for your own salvation.

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The most obvious answer is Jesus' words to his disciples at the Last Supper, in Matthew's 26:28...……….
"this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins."

This will occur on a future Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, when Jesus descends to earth and slaughters Israel's enemies, who will be attacking, ransacking, and destroying them:

Rejoice, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people. (Deuteronomy 32:43) That is why Isaiah and Ezekiel figuratively referred to these attackers as "lambs, goats, rams, and bulls." Isaiah gave an indication of this atonement here: By warfare and exile you contend with her—with his fierce blast he drives her out, as on a day the east wind blows. By this, then, will Jacob's guilt be atoned for, and this will be the full fruitage of the removal of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones to be like chalk stones crushed to pieces, no Asherah poles or incense altars will be left standing. (Isaiah 27:8,9) Even Israel's own blood will be shed by her attackers. Furthermore, the destruction of Israel's enemies, by Jesus the High Priest when He returns to earth, is likened to the treading of grapes in a great winepress, with their blood being poured all over the ground (Isaiah 63:1-6; Joel 3:9-13; Ezekiel 38:22; Revelation 14:18-20, 19:15). It might be the greatest bloodbath in history.

On that day, Israel's "eyes" will be opened and their "ears" will be unstopped, having been closed and stopped up for millennia (Isaiah 6:10). The people will see and understand that Jesus is their Messiah, Savior, and Lord (Ezekiel 38:23, 39:22) when He destroys their enemies before their very eyes. They will be in the direct presence of their Messiah, just as the first high priest Aaron was in the direct presence of God in the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:2,29,30). And God's new covenant with Israel will be reinstated, perhaps symbolized by the visibility of the ark of the covenant in heaven (Revelation 11:19).

As a result, they will mourn for the one whom they have pierced (Zechariah 12:10). God has accepted all of the "wild olive branches" who, by their faith in Jesus, have been grafted into the "natural olive branch" of Israel (Romans 11:17-20). Likewise, He will accept Israel back again. Once their sins have been atoned for by the blood of their enemies, they will remember Him as Lord, their covenant with Him will be reinstated (Ezekiel 16:60-63), and they will be re-grafted back into their own natural "olive tree" (Romans 11:23,24—see grafted and re-grafted). At that time, they will accept Jesus' personal shedding of His blood on the cross, on Passover, for the remission of their sins, unto eternal salvation and life.

EmSw said:

And just where did Jesus say this? If Jesus has the words of life, surely He would have mentioned a substitutionary atonement. Don't you think?

Here are His words of life -

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He didn't say anybody was going to substitute for anybody. Rather, if YOU want to enter life, YOU keep the commandments. You are responsible for your own salvation.

Click to expand...

SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT!

What was commanded? --------------------Blood sacrifice.

Why was it commanded? For Israel’s -----redemption.

How would it be accomplished? Through-- substitutionary atonement.

What resulted from obedience to the command? life and freedom.

The prophetic symbols in the Passover that are fulfilled in Jesus are bountiful, remarkable and profound. Those who have participated in a Messianic Passover Seder know that it is one of the richest expressions of the Gospel. The dinner is full of symbolism of our redemption that one can see, smell and taste–our redemption from sin through the blood of Messiah Jesus, our Passover Lamb. We will explore some of these symbols here but if you ever have the chance to attend a Messianic Seder, I highly encourage you to do so. And to do so every year. It is powerful.

Each Jewish household was to select a lamb from the flock without blemish on the tenth day of the month. However, they weren’t to kill it until the fourteenth day (both during the first Passover and every year thereafter). It is recognized that the reason for this was in order to inspect the lamb thoroughly for any blemish because it had to be without any blemish. Sam Nadler, in a wonderfully insightful book called Messiah in the Feasts of Israel, poignantly notes that,

Yeshua entered Jerusalem on the tenth of the month as a Passover lamb was being selected for each family. During this time Yeshua was inspected, questioned, interrogated…On the fourteenth of the month the head of the Roman government declared, ‘I find no fault in Him’ (Luke 23:4).” 7

Though found innocent, Jesus was then placed on the cross to die a sinner’s death. But it is because he was innocent that he was a sufficient substitute for sinners. Jesus is the perfect, spotless Lamb that was sacrificed for our redemption. Paul states this parallel clearly by saying, “For Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed” (1 Cor. 5:7). Peter also uses this imagery: “knowing that you were ransomed…not with perishable things…but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.” (1 Peter 1:18-19).

Each Jewish household was not only required to sacrifice the lamb, but also to apply the lamb’s blood to the doorframe. Nadler observes that the reason the blood had to be applied was that God wanted “to redeem a people not merely of the flesh, but a people of faith.” Messiah in the Feasts of Israel by Sam Nadler, pgs. 37 " data-hasqtip="7">8 It was a declaration that a substitute had died in place of the firstborn in that home and it showed that those living there had faith that the lamb was a substitute sufficient to rescue them from God’s judgment. In other words, the people were redeemed by their faith in the gracious substitutionary atonement provided by God in the lamb.

The way we can be saved from God’s judgment is through faith in the substitutionary death of Christ.

The way Jesus made atonement for us was by dying in our place so that we might live. Look at this verse: “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24). Not only did Jesus take our sin upon himself, he also offers us the righteousness of the unblemished life he lived. This is the “great exchange” that takes place when we put our trust in Jesus. This is how we are made right before God. Through the blood of Jesus applied by faith in God’s provision of the Lamb.
Substitutionary Atonement Part 3: The Sacrifice of the LORD's Passover ~ One Fading Flower

Since YOU do not believe this simple theological doctrine, the rest of your theology is seriously flawed my friend.

When the foundation is cracked, the roof is always going to leak!

Major1 said:

SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT!

What was commanded? --------------------Blood sacrifice.

Why was it commanded? For Israel’s -----redemption.

How would it be accomplished? Through-- substitutionary atonement.

What resulted from obedience to the command? life and freedom.

The prophetic symbols in the Passover that are fulfilled in Jesus are bountiful, remarkable and profound. Those who have participated in a Messianic Passover Seder know that it is one of the richest expressions of the Gospel. The dinner is full of symbolism of our redemption that one can see, smell and taste–our redemption from sin through the blood of Messiah Jesus, our Passover Lamb. We will explore some of these symbols here but if you ever have the chance to attend a Messianic Seder, I highly encourage you to do so. And to do so every year. It is powerful.

Each Jewish household was to select a lamb from the flock without blemish on the tenth day of the month. However, they weren’t to kill it until the fourteenth day (both during the first Passover and every year thereafter). It is recognized that the reason for this was in order to inspect the lamb thoroughly for any blemish because it had to be without any blemish. Sam Nadler, in a wonderfully insightful book called Messiah in the Feasts of Israel, poignantly notes that,

Yeshua entered Jerusalem on the tenth of the month as a Passover lamb was being selected for each family. During this time Yeshua was inspected, questioned, interrogated…On the fourteenth of the month the head of the Roman government declared, ‘I find no fault in Him’ (Luke 23:4).” 7

Though found innocent, Jesus was then placed on the cross to die a sinner’s death. But it is because he was innocent that he was a sufficient substitute for sinners. Jesus is the perfect, spotless Lamb that was sacrificed for our redemption. Paul states this parallel clearly by saying, “For Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed” (1 Cor. 5:7). Peter also uses this imagery: “knowing that you were ransomed…not with perishable things…but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.” (1 Peter 1:18-19).

Each Jewish household was not only required to sacrifice the lamb, but also to apply the lamb’s blood to the doorframe. Nadler observes that the reason the blood had to be applied was that God wanted “to redeem a people not merely of the flesh, but a people of faith.” Messiah in the Feasts of Israel by Sam Nadler, pgs. 37 " data-hasqtip="7">8 It was a declaration that a substitute had died in place of the firstborn in that home and it showed that those living there had faith that the lamb was a substitute sufficient to rescue them from God’s judgment. In other words, the people were redeemed by their faith in the gracious substitutionary atonement provided by God in the lamb.

The way we can be saved from God’s judgment is through faith in the substitutionary death of Christ.

The way Jesus made atonement for us was by dying in our place so that we might live. Look at this verse: “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24). Not only did Jesus take our sin upon himself, he also offers us the righteousness of the unblemished life he lived. This is the “great exchange” that takes place when we put our trust in Jesus. This is how we are made right before God. Through the blood of Jesus applied by faith in God’s provision of the Lamb.
Substitutionary Atonement Part 3: The Sacrifice of the LORD's Passover ~ One Fading Flower

Since YOU do not believe this simple theological doctrine, the rest of your theology is seriously flawed my friend.

When the foundation is cracked, the roof is always going to leak!

Click to expand...

I bet you're feeling pretty good about yourself. You did a lot of explaining.

I wonder if you know the spiritual meaning of blood? You have given me much on the physical side. A couple of passages you did not give are from John.

John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

If you meant the physical blood in all those passages you gave, then you must be consistent and say Jesus meant His physical blood in John.

So, I ask, have you drunk His physical blood? If not, you have no life in you. Jesus said His blood is drink indeed. Have you physically drunk His physical blood? How about eating His physical flesh? Have you done that also?

I'm willing to bet you are going to spiritualize these passages. We'll wait and see. If you do, then the blood in those passages you gave have a spiritual meaning also.

As far as the Passover, you have not shown it was for atoning sin. The Bible doesn't say that. I've asked you to read Exodus 12, and it seems you didn't find anything on atoning for sins. Passing over a house with blood on its door posts is not an atonement for sins.

Now, as far as an animal's blood shed for atonement, please tell us where God said to sacrifice that animal and what to do with its blood. Could Israel just go out into the field and kill an animal and be atoned for sin? Could they hang this sacrificial animal on a piece of wood until it died and call it an atonement? Where there requirements for this sacrifice? Will you tell us the requirements for sacrifices of atonement.

Also, was the sacrificed animals eaten before or after the its death? Compare your answer to Jesus' death?

Was the High Priest required to shed his own blood and offer himself upon the altar for atonement? Was human sacrifice acceptable to God? I hope you can give us Bible passages which say a human sacrifice pleased God.

I think you have more questions to answer. I see you didn't say why the animal killed for Adam and Eve was a a substitutionary atonement for them. All I see is it clothed them. Wearing animal skins is not what God said about atonement.

EmSw said:

And just where did Jesus say this? If Jesus has the words of life, surely He would have mentioned a substitutionary atonement. Don't you think?

Here are His words of life -

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He didn't say anybody was going to substitute for anybody. Rather, if YOU want to enter life, YOU keep the commandments. You are responsible for your own salvation.

Click to expand...

Jesus was the substitutionary atonement...He exemplified it with His life, death, burial, and resurrection.

And at this point I realize that arguing with you is going to get us nowhere...so I will continue to pray for your soul.

EmSw said:

I bet you're feeling pretty good about yourself. You did a lot of explaining.

I wonder if you know the spiritual meaning of blood? You have given me much on the physical side. A couple of passages you did not give are from John.

John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

If you meant the physical blood in all those passages you gave, then you must be consistent and say Jesus meant His physical blood in John.

So, I ask, have you drunk His physical blood? If not, you have no life in you. Jesus said His blood is drink indeed. Have you physically drunk His physical blood? How about eating His physical flesh? Have you done that also?

I'm willing to bet you are going to spiritualize these passages. We'll wait and see. If you do, then the blood in those passages you gave have a spiritual meaning also.

As far as the Passover, you have not shown it was for atoning sin. The Bible doesn't say that. I've asked you to read Exodus 12, and it seems you didn't find anything on atoning for sins. Passing over a house with blood on its door posts is not an atonement for sins.

Now, as far as an animal's blood shed for atonement, please tell us where God said to sacrifice that animal and what to do with its blood. Could Israel just go out into the field and kill an animal and be atoned for sin? Could they hang this sacrificial animal on a piece of wood until it died and call it an atonement? Where there requirements for this sacrifice? Will you tell us the requirements for sacrifices of atonement.

Also, was the sacrificed animals eaten before or after the its death? Compare your answer to Jesus' death?

Was the High Priest required to shed his own blood and offer himself upon the altar for atonement? Was human sacrifice acceptable to God? I hope you can give us Bible passages which say a human sacrifice pleased God.

I think you have more questions to answer. I see you didn't say why the animal killed for Adam and Eve was a a substitutionary atonement for them. All I see is it clothed them. Wearing animal skins is not what God said about atonement.

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Before God killed an animal to provide atonement for Adam and Eve's sin (to clothe them in the righteousness of the animal's skin so that they would no longer be naked before God), there was no death in the world.

God killed the animal for the sake of Adam and Eve to show that the wages of sin is death...fortunately for Adam and Eve, that time it didn't turn out to be their death...because God killed an animal and accepted its death as an atonement for their sin.

Hebrews 9:22, And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood there is no remission (forgiveness).

I want to say to you, @EmSw, that I believe that our preaching the word to you will not return void (Isaiah 55:10-11); whether you hear, or whether you forbear (Ezekiel 2:5, Ezekiel 3:27).

If it does not have the effect of saving your soul, it will at the very least have the effect of making you accountable for what you knew, on your day of judgment.

You will not be able to say, I didn't know...

The best excuse you will have before the Lord will be, I didn't believe...

See John 3:16, John 3:36.

In response to a PM sent to me by @Nicolaus Mourer:

Paul the apostle in 1 Corinthians 15:34 tells us that, Awake to righteousness, and sin not: for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who don't walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). And the carnal mind is at enmity with God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (Romans 8:7). Therefore I conclude that the spiritual mind is at peace with God, for it is subject to God's law, and cannot be otherwise.

Those who attempt to be justified through law-keeping will not be justified through law-keeping, and have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4).

However, those who obey the law out of love for the Lord, because we are saved, are operating from the right motivation.

Love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10). And it is also shed abroad in the heart of the true Christian through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5). Consider:

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous (burdensome). 1 John 5:3.

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 2 John 1:6.

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10.

In other words, if I love my neighbor as myself I am not going to commit adultery with his wife, kill him, steal from him, lie about him, covet any of his possessions, or break any of the other commandments that God has set forth concerning him.
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That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14.

And hope maketh not ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us. Romans 5:5.

Therefore we do not teach a lawless Christianity (Romans 3:31). We obey God not in order to be justified, but because we have been saved, love Him, and desire to obey Him as the result. If we are born again we will love Him because He has first loved us (1 John 4:19).

justbyfaith said:

Jesus was the substitutionary atonement...He exemplified it with His life, death, burial, and resurrection.

And at this point I realize that arguing with you is going to get us nowhere...so I will continue to pray for your soul.

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Why don't you pray for the truth? Jesus never said He was a substitutionary atonement. Why do you not listen to what Jesus said? 'If you want to enter life, keep the commandments'. What is so hard to understand?

So many people want to put words into Jesus' lips. Believe me, if it was so important, Jesus would have mentioned it. To some people, it's a life and death issue, but Jesus didn't thinks so.

justbyfaith said:

Before God killed an animal to provide atonement for Adam and Eve's sin (to clothe them in the righteousness of the animal's skin so that they would no longer be naked before God), there was no death in the world.

God killed the animal for the sake of Adam and Eve to show that the wages of sin is death...fortunately for Adam and Eve, that time it didn't turn out to be their death...because God killed an animal and accepted its death as an atonement for their sin.

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You people! There was no righteousness in a dead animal's skin. Where do you all get these ideas? There was no atonement in a dead animal's skin. Why do you all make up these things?

justbyfaith said:

Hebrews 9:22, And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood there is no remission (forgiveness).

I want to say to you, @EmSw, that I believe that our preaching the word to you will not return void (Isaiah 55:10-11); whether you hear, or whether you forbear (Ezekiel 2:5, Ezekiel 3:27).

If it does not have the effect of saving your soul, it will at the very least have the effect of making you accountable for what you knew, on your day of judgment.

You will not be able to say, I didn't know...

The best excuse you will have before the Lord will be, I didn't believe...

See John 3:16, John 3:36.

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Because I do not believe as you do, I am accountable, right? Why are you so sure of yourself?

Are you one who thinks physical blood can deal with a spiritual problem? If physical blood is your savior, then why don't you drink Jesus' physical blood? Jesus said you do not have life if you don't. If physical blood is your gateway to life, tell us why you can't drink Jesus' physical blood.

BobRyan said:

"The Life is in the blood" Lev 17.

"Without the shedding of blood - no forgiveness of sins" Hebrews 9

Rom 3:25 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Rom 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Col 1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Heb 9:12
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9: 14
how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

1 Peter 1:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Rev 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Rev 7:14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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Another one who hasn't drunk Jesus' physical blood, but thinks he has life. Until you drink His physical blood, you are without life.

Tell me how you have been washed with His blood. Give me the details. I've never seen anyone wash and clean anything with physical blood. Also, tell us how you have washed your physical robes in His physical blood. Oh, the ideas earthly minded men have.

Jesus' physical blood was shed, but His physical blood is not available to us unless transubstantiation is true as a doctrine; in which case we eat His flesh and drink His blood every time we partake of communion.

Personally, I believe that we appropriate/partake of His flesh and blood when we simply believe in His death on the Cross for our sins.

Still praying for you, my friend.