(Jews) Why don't Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

Doctor.Sphinx said:

Actually, it does matter, as the fact logically refutes the question in the original post. Some Jews *do* believe Jesus is Messiah, therefore, it should never be assumed that all Jews do not. Indeed, the true Jew recognises the true Messiah.

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Ok, if we're trying to be exact, some Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah. Some Jews believe Mohammed is a prophet. Some Jews believe a lot of different things. In general, however, Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah.

The evidence is there. You're without excuse. As Jesus said to the rich man about his brothers so they would not come to endure the terrible agonies of hell, even if someone were to rise from the dead, they would not believe.

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I say the evidence is not there. I looked.

Doctor.Sphinx said:

The evidence is there.

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Bs"d

That's great! Please be kind enough to give us the evidence.

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

That's great! Please be kind enough to give us the evidence.

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Risen from the dead not enough for you?

Doctor.Sphinx said:

Risen from the dead not enough for you?

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Bs’d

Why do you think that JC was ressurected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. JC met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought JC was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known JC who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old JC, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected JC?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected JC" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic JC appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected JC" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs’d

Why do you think that JC was ressurected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. JC met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought JC was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known JC who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old JC, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected JC?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected JC" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic JC appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected JC" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?

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John 20:24-29
But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Doctor.Sphinx said:

John 20:24-29
But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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Bs"d

So we just have to believe, without seeing.

For some that's a bit too much asked for.

Or others "just believe" that Mohammed is a prophet of God.

You believe everything in the OT even though you did not live in those times? We believe in the OT and NT.

Matthew 5:17
17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

Drick said:

It's explained pretty well here.

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What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

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Except that Christ built a new temple (it just wasn't made of stone), Isaiah 43 makes no reference at all to the Messiah, Isaiah 2 is speaking of the end times (not even David managed to do what verse 4 said), and as for Zechariah, well, Christianity is doing that quite well (is there a country we DON'T evangelise to)?

On a side note, it is interesting to see how the UN has taken onto itself the role of gathering Jews back to Israel, ushering in an era of world peace, and trying to unite humanity as one...which I find interesting to say the least but that is off topic for this particular thread.

Lost4words said:

You believe everything in the OT even though you did not live in those times? We believe in the OT and NT.

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Bs"d

I think you missed something. We live in the time of the Tanach, and the NT, and the koran, and the book of Mormon, and .....

Inkfingers said:

Except that Christ built a new temple (it just wasn't made of stone)

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Bs"d

Interesting, where can I find that Temple?

Lost4words said:

Matthew 5:17
17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

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Bs"d

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 5

So you follow the whole law of God? All 613 commandments?

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

Interesting, where can I find that Temple?

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You can find it everywhere that you speak with someone who accepts Christ as their lord and saviour - it is the body of Christ, the Church.

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs’d

Why do you think that JC was ressurected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. JC met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought JC was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

Click to expand...

Christians do not necessarily believe Jesus got up like a zombie and walked out of a tomb. That is not what the resurrection necessarily means for us.

The New testament doesn't bear witness to the notion that Jesus was unrecognized, it bears witness to God revealing himself again and again in the resurrected Christ and challenging his people to seek Christ in the world.

Inkfingers said:

You can find it everywhere that you speak with someone who accepts Christ as their lord and saviour - it is the body of Christ, the Church.

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Bs"d

It is clear that we have completely different idea's about what a Temple is.

It should also be clear for everybody that a group of people is not a Temple.

ubicaritas said:

Christians do not necessarily believe Jesus got up like a zombie and walked out of a tomb. That is not what the resurrection necessarily means for us.

The New testament doesn't bear witness to the notion that Jesus was unrecognized, it bears witness to God revealing himself again and again in the resurrected Christ and challenging his people to seek Christ in the world.

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Bs"d

God is not a human being. Worshipping a human being is idolatry.

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

God is not a human being. Worshipping a human being is idolatry.

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It's not idolatry if God himself chooses to become a man. And that is what we believe.

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

It is clear that we have completely different idea's about what a Temple is.

It should also be clear for everybody that a group of people is not a Temple.

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God doesn't need a temple as a physical structure so human beings can be as fitting a temple as any for an omnipotent God.

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

It is clear that we have completely different idea's about what a Temple is.

It should also be clear for everybody that a group of people is not a Temple.

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A temple is a house that God dwells in on earth. The new temple is the body of Christ. That's why the Jews in the gospel of John were confused - they thought the man was claiming to be God (and tried to stone him) when what they were hearing was the voice of God speaking out of the new temple.

ubicaritas said:

It's not idolatry if God himself chooses to become a man. And that is what we believe.

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Bs"d

Your believes are against the Hebrew Bible and plain paganism. As so much of Christianities teachings and customs.

"God is not human, that he should lie" Num 23:19

"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” 1 Samuel 15:29

"For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you." Hosea 11:9

God doesn't need a temple as a physical structure so human beings can be as fitting a temple as any for an omnipotent God.

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If your God doesn't need a Temple, then just do without, but don't start saying nonsensical things like: "These people are a Temple".

ubicaritas said:

It's not idolatry if God himself chooses to become a man. And that is what we believe.

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Bs'd

And when his followers were worshipping that human being, they also had another God in heaven; "God the Father".

Well, since I can count to two, I know that a "God the Father" in heaven and a "god the son" on earth, is TWO (2) gods, and not one.

And that is polytheism, and that is idolatry.

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

Your believes are against the Hebrew Bible and plain paganism. As so much of Christianities teachings and customs.

"God is not human, that he should lie" Num 23:19

"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” 1 Samuel 15:29

"For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you." Hosea 11:9



If your God doesn't need a Temple, then just do without, but don't start saying nonsensical things like: "These people are a Temple".

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It's not nonsensical, though it is an unusual and peculiar religious use of language, perhaps. But then Jesus ran into the same problems 2,000 years ago when he talked about the very same things. Still, some of us choose to follow him because he is where we encounter God.

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs'd

And when his followers were worshipping that human being, they also had another God in heaven; "God the Father".

Well, since I can count to two, I know that a "God the Father" in heaven and a "god the son" on earth, is TWO (2) gods, and not one.

And that is polytheism, and that is idolatry.

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It's only polytheism if you discount the Trinitarian doctrine which affirms the unity of God in substance.