2 Corin 12 A man caught up to 3rd Heaven and Paradise

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 20, 2018

Who is the man Paul is talking about? Jesus, himself, John [who visioned Revelation] or other?
Thanks

Here is the passage:

YLT) 2 Corinthians 12:
1 To boast, really, is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago — whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known — such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
3 and I have known such a man — whether in the body, whether out of the body, I have not known, God hath known, — 4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak.
5 Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities,

.

TuxAme · Jun 20, 2018

The third heaven refers to a Jewish tradition that God stacked heaven three levels high. The first "heaven" is the atmosphere of birds and clouds. The second is space. The third is heaven as we know it, the "dwelling of God".

As for the man, Paul is referring to himself (verse 7 gives it away). Paul was allowed in a vision (or possibly in the body) to view the "third heaven".

brinny · Jun 20, 2018

i thought Paul was referring to himself....

SarahsKnight · Jun 21, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Who is the man Paul is talking about? Jesus, himself, John [who visioned Revelation] or other?
Thanks

Here is the passage:

YLT) 2 Corinthians 12:
1 To boast, really, is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago — whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known — such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
3 and I have known such a man — whether in the body, whether out of the body, I have not known, God hath known, — 4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak.
5 Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities,

I always wondered why Paul wouldn't simply name that person. I guess it was someone really special who God chose to get a glimpse of the coming Kingdom? What eternal life would be like? I'll admit I never studied this little tidbit, though, just wondered about it, so I'm not going to put forth any sure conclusions.

ewq1938 · Jun 21, 2018

Paul is clear he isn't talking about himself:

"Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast"

He will boast of this other person but not of himself.

SarahsKnight · Jun 21, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Paul is clear he isn't talking about himself:

"Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast"

He will boast of this other person but not of himself.

A good thing, I believe. It is always better to edify others and keep ourselves low (so long as we don't wallow in self-condemnation or pity, of course).

brinny · Jun 21, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Paul is clear he isn't talking about himself:

"Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast"

He will boast of this other person but not of himself.

How would he know what another guy did?

And isn't this why he got a thorn in the flesh? So he wouldn't be prideful about this experience?

TuxAme · Jun 21, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Paul is clear he isn't talking about himself:

"Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast"

He will boast of this other person but not of himself.

At first glance it might seem that way- but he goes on. In verse 7 Paul says, "And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh". What revelation besides the one(s) he was just discussing? Why would he be given a thorn in the flesh, to keep him from being too elated- over someone else's revelations?

ewq1938 · Jun 21, 2018

brinny said:
How would he know what another guy did?

He doesn't explain but he is clearly talking about someone else.

And isn't this why he got a thorn in the flesh? So he wouldn't be prideful about this experience?

No.

brinny · Jun 21, 2018

ewq1938 said:
He doesn't explain but he is clearly talking about someone else.

No.

i dunno, ewq, TuxAme posted the verse that i could not remember.

That verse explains why Paul was given a thorn in the flesh.

ewq1938 · Jun 21, 2018

TuxAme said:
At first glance it might seem that way- but he goes on. In verse 7 Paul says, "And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh". What revelation besides the one(s) he was just discussing? Why would he be given a thorn in the flesh, to keep him from being too elated- over someone else's revelations?

Again, look at his own words:

"Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast"

He will boast of this other person but not of himself.

He also says, "I will say the truth:" so I believe he is boasting about someone else and not himself. The thorn is to prevent him from boasting about himself concerning all the things Paul has received and seen but not this other person going to heaven. It's just placed near the other things he says but that doesn't mean he is fibbing and actually talking about himself.

TuxAme · Jun 21, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Again, look at his own words:

"Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast"

He will boast of this other person but not of himself.

He also says, "I will say the truth:" so I believe he is boasting about someone else and not himself. The thorn is to prevent him from boasting about himself concerning all the things Paul has received and seen but not this other person going to heaven. It's just placed near the other things he says but that doesn't mean he is fibbing and actually talking about himself.

Paul is talking about himself indirectly to differentiate this event from his everyday experiences. He doesn't wish to boast. Again, verse 7 makes it apparent. There's no reason that he would get a "thorn in his flesh" because someone else was having revelations.

Consider verse 6:

Though if I wish to boast, I shall not be a fool, for I shall be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.

Consider briefly: why would someone think any more (or less) of Paul because of a revelation someone else has had?

Moving on, Paul offers almost a contradiction in the verse prior (5)- he will boast (on behalf of this "someone"), but he won't boast on his own behalf- well, he will, but only of his weaknesses. Now let's consider a few verses ahead.

Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it (the thorn) should leave me; but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Let's review:

1) Paul relays a revelation "someone" had of the "third heaven".
2) Paul says that he will boast on behalf of that "someone", just not on his own behalf, because he will boast only of his own weaknesses
a. Paul says that he will refrain from boasting specifically to avoid causing people to think higher of him (why would he boast if someone else had the revelations?)
3) A thorn was given to him in the flesh to keep him from being elated "by the abundance of revelations"
a. Paul asks the Lord to remove it, to which He replies, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"
b. Paul will "all the more gladly" boast of his weaknesses

ewq1938 · Jun 21, 2018

TuxAme said:
Paul is talking about himself indirectly to differentiate this event from his everyday experiences. He doesn't wish to boast.

I understand BUT, if he is boasting about himself indirectly then he is a hypocrite and possibly a liar. But, if he is truthful and is boasting about someone else he knew 14 years before, and is not boasting about himself then he is not a hypocrite.

Chinchilla · Jun 21, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Who is the man Paul is talking about? Jesus, himself, John [who visioned Revelation] or other?
Thanks

Here is the passage:

YLT) 2 Corinthians 12:
1 To boast, really, is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago — whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known — such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
3 and I have known such a man — whether in the body, whether out of the body, I have not known, God hath known, — 4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak.
5 Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities,

.

Paul is speaking of himself , you have two births , the flesh and the spirit if you are born again .
The spirit does not know any sin so when he was dead he was not sure who was that fleshly sinner lying on ground when he was being caught up to heaven .

This indicate that our memory will be somehow erased because we will never sin in heaven , person who could remember for example inappropriate contentography pictures from his life here on earth could make that image in his mind and sin in heaven but it won't be possible . We will be like blameless children knowing no sin .

That's why God told us to walk in Spirit and not in flesh .

icxn · Jun 21, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Who is the man Paul is talking about? Jesus, himself, John [who visioned Revelation] or other?
Thanks
.

St. Paul is talking about himself. He doesn't say so directly out of humility. St. John Chrysostom and other Church Fathers agree on this.

IMO, the third heaven is the angelic realm or the direct contemplation (or partaking) of the divine nature. Second heaven is man's mind when it is purified (from vices and ignorance) and can therefore contemplate divine realities (as if through a mirror - the mind is the mirror). First heaven is the one perceived by the senses, the visible one.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 21, 2018

Let's look at the word silence:

Romans 16:
25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good-news/Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery,
in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

Silence

So I suppose the man Paul knew was either John or himself.

Romans 16:
25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good-news/Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery,
in the times of the ages having been kept silent,/sesighmenou<4601>

4601. sigao see-gah'-o from 4602; to keep silent (transitively or intransitively):--keep close (secret, silence), hold peace.
4602. sige see-gay' apparently from sizo (to hiss, i.e. hist or hush); silence:--silence. Compare 4623.
Strong's Number G4601 matches the Greek σιγάω (sigaō), which occurs 12 times in 9 verses

Paul uses a form of the word from the main root word #4602.

It is used 2 times in Luke, 3 in Acts, 1 in Romans, and 3 in 1 Corinthians 14

Luke 9:36 [the transfiguration event]
and when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone; and they were silent,
and declared to no one in those days anything of what they have see

Luke 20:26 [Jesus is confronted by the Chief Priests, Scribes and Elders]
and they were not able to take hold on his saying before the people, and having wondered at his answer, they were silent.

Act 12:17 [Peter after getting of prison]
and having beckoned to them with the hand to be silent, he declared to them how the Lord brought him out of the prison, and he said, 'Declare to James and to the brethren these things;' and having gone forth, he went on to another place.

The last 3 verses concerns silence in the Church:

1Corinthians 14:
28 and if there may be no interpreter, let him be silent in an assembly
and to himself let him speak, and to God.
30 and if to another sitting anything may be revealed, let the first be silent;
34Your women in the assemblies let them be silent!
for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;

This is the other form of #4601

Strong's Number G4602 matches the Greek σιγή (sigē),which occurs 2 times in 2 verses

Acts 21:40 [Paul confronted at the Temple in Jerusalem]
And when he had given him license, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people.
And when there was made a great silence he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,

Rev 8:1
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in the heaven about the space of half an hour.

Some OT verses with the equivent Hebrew word for "silent/hush"........AWESOME!

2013 hacah haw-saw' a primitive root; to hush:--hold peace (tongue), (keep) silence, be silent, still.
Strong's Number H2013 matches the Hebrew הָסָה (hacah),
which occurs 8 times in 8 verses

The Day of Yahweh:

Amo 8:3
And the songs of the temple
Shall be wailing in that Day,” say 'Adonay YAHWEH—
“Many dead bodies everywhere, They shall be thrown out in silence.”

Hab 2:20

“But YAHWEH is in Holy temple.
Let all the earth keep silence before HIM.”

Zep 1:7

Be silent in the presence of 'Adonay YAHWEH;
For the day of YAHWEH is at hand,
For YAHWEH has prepared a sacrifice; HE has invited HIS guests.

Zec 2
1 I lifted up mine eyes again and looked, and behold! a man with a measuring line in his hand.
13 “Be silent, all flesh, before YAHWEH, for He is roused from HIS holy habitation!”

BEHOLD!

Acts 21:40
And when he had given him license, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people.
And when there was made a great silence/sighV<4602>, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,

Rev 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence/sigh<4602> in heaven for about half an hour.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 21, 2018

THE MYSTERIES:

Romans 16:
25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good-news/Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery/musthriou<3466>,
in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

Strong's Number G3466 matches the Greek μυστήριον (mystērion), which occurs 27 times in 27 verses

Of the 27 times #3466 is used in the NT, it is used only 3 times in the Gospels,
all the rest in Paul's Epistles and 4 times Revelation

Mat 13:11
And he answering said to them that -- 'To you it hath been given to know the mysteries of the reign of the heavens, and to these it hath not been given,

Click to expand...

Mar 4:11
and he said to them, 'To you it hath been given to know the mystery of the reign of God,
but to those who are without, in similes are all the things done;

Click to expand...

Luk 8:10
And he said, 'To you it hath been given to know the mysteries of the reign of God,
and to the rest in similes; that seeing

Click to expand...

.....

I put a few verses from Paul's epistles where the exact form of the Greek word #3466 used in Romans 16:25:

Colos 1:27
to whom God did will to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations -- which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,

Colos 2:2
that their hearts may be comforted, being united in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of the God and Father and of the Christ,

Click to expand...

BEHOLD!

Revelation 10:7
but in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he may be about to be trumpeting, also the mystery of the God may be finished,
as He did declare to His own servants, to the prophets.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 22, 2018

TuxAme said:
The third heaven refers to a Jewish tradition that God stacked heaven three levels high. The first "heaven" is the atmosphere of birds and clouds. The second is space. The third is heaven as we know it, the "dwelling of God".
As for the man, Paul is referring to himself (verse 7 gives it away). Paul was allowed in a vision (or possibly in the body) to view the "third heaven".

Good info and thanks.

Sky/skies in Bible:

Isa 45:8
“Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together.
I, Yahweh, have created it.

Amo 9:6
He who builds His layers in the sky, And has founded His strata in the earth;
Who calls for the waters of the sea, And pours them out on the face of the earth—
Yahweh is His name.

Jesus mentions the sky in the NT.

Mat 16:
2 He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red';
3 “and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Hypocrites![fn] You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times.

Rev 6:14
Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

Would it be safe to say that the mid-heaven in Revelation is symbolizing the sky?

Rev 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, 'Woe, woe, woe............

Rev 14:6 [LLoJ's signature]
And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age................

Click to expand...

Rev 19:17 [Ezekiel 39:17]
And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, 'Come and be gathered together to the supper of the great God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh.....

Ezekiel 39:17 [Revelation 19:17]
And as for you, son of man, this is what the 'Adonay Yahweh says: 'Call out to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field:
Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, a great feast on the mountains of Israel.
There you will eat flesh and drink blood.

Click to expand...

.......................

.

josef7 · Jun 30, 2018

TuxAme said:
Consider briefly: why would someone think any more (or less) of Paul because of a revelation someone else has had?
...
why would he boast if someone else had the revelations?

Correct, they would think more or less of Paul because of his own revelations. That's why he brings up someone else's instead of his own.

He's boasting in someone else, not strictly "boasting" in the sense we use the word, but you could say he's rejoicing in what God gave to someone else and pointing it out.

Edit: I should add that people I respect very much and are very educated and thoughtful have said it was Paul. I'm stating the defense of the other position, but I could be mistaken.

2 Corin 12 A man caught up to 3rd Heaven and Paradise

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Quis ut Deus?

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth.

I love you three.

Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth.

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Quis ut Deus?

I love you three.

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

I love you three.

Quis ut Deus?

I love you three.

Well-Known Member

Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Joe

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