Are our sins COVERED, or TAKEN AWAY.

1stcenturylady said:

So, here is the question. How many still believe the popular doctrine that the blood of Jesus covers our sins, so as to not be seen by the Father? In other words, like the prodigal son's cloak that covered the filth beneath?

Click to expand...

Baptism removes original sin and personal sin. Baptism is received only once. (Ephesians 4:5)
Titus 3:4 "but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.[a] 8 The saying is sure."

1 Peter 3:21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

We must continue to confess our sins and ask forgiveness.
1 Jn 1:7 "but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

2 Peter 1:9 "For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins."

Jn 1:29 "The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

2 Peter 1:3 "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature."

If God just covers sins, no of us will enter heaven.
Revelation 21:27 "But nothing unclean shall enter it [heaven], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to the apostles.
John 20:21 "Jesus said to them [the apostles] again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”"

1stcenturylady said:

Romans 4:6 "just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

But what must David or any Old Testament saint, do to assure the covering of their sin? Sacrifice bulls and goats, etc.

So, here is the question. How many still believe the popular doctrine that the blood of Jesus covers our sins, so as to not be seen by the Father? In other words, like the prodigal son's cloak that covered the filth beneath?

Read all the Word again. Study.

Hebrews 10:
3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins...11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

John 1:
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’

Romans 11:27
"For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Click to expand...

Taken away. The sin issue is over.

"...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them." 2 Corinthians 5:19

"...then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin." Hebrews 10:17-18

"Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God..." Hebrews 10:11-12

"...so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." Hebrews 9:28

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace ..." Ephesians 1:7

"Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32

"...bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you." Colossians 3:13

"...and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Hebrews 9:12

"For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God." Romans 6:10

"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit ...." 1 Peter 3:18

"... who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself." Hebrews 7:27

"in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Colossians 1:14

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions ..." Colossians 2:13

"I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake." 1 John 2:12

"Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit." John 19:30

" They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:34

Grace and Peace

1stcenturylady said:

Romans 4:6 "just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

But what must David or any Old Testament saint, do to assure the covering of their sin? Sacrifice bulls and goats, etc.

So, here is the question. How many still believe the popular doctrine that the blood of Jesus covers our sins, so as to not be seen by the Father? In other words, like the prodigal son's cloak that covered the filth beneath?

Read all the Word again. Study.

Hebrews 10:
3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins...11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

John 1:
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’

Romans 11:27
"For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Click to expand...

Yes this one confuses me as well. Covering our sins sounds too much like whitewashed tombs that are inwardly corruption but outwardly have the appearance of morality.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

When Paul says in Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Is that not expressly teaching penal substitution? "Gave himself for me"?

Click to expand...

Jesus's death was more pleasing to the Father than all our sins are displeasing. That is how our sins are forgiven. He gave his life out of love for us. John 3:16 says the Father gave us his Son, but that isn't penal substitution. I think you are reading more into the word " gave" than I do. Jesus gave us the gift of eternal life if we are his disciples.

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:

Yes, it is more than a "theory", it is what Jesus taught. "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many" (Mark 10: 45).

Click to expand...

It is a theory/analogy. Jesus spoke more of a debt being paid, but that is also an analogy, a way for us to relate God's grace in an earthly manner.

Truth Lover said:

Jesus's death was more pleasing to the Father than all our sins are displeasing. That is how our sins are forgiven. He gave his life out of love for us. John 3:16 says the Father gave us his Son, but that isn't penal substitution. I think you are reading more into the word " gave" than I do. Jesus gave us the gift of eternal life if we are his disciples.

Click to expand...

Jesus suffered death, both physically and spiritually, in our place so that the wrath of God could be satisfied. God's justice must be exacted against all ungodliness.

Jesus was in hell for three days (Acts of the Apostles 2:31), because he had become sin in our stead, bearing our sins upon himself and giving us his righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 9:28), which is having the crimson stain of our sins washed white by the blood of him who is righteous (Revelation 1:5, Colossians 1:14).

Christ died for us (Romans 5:8), gave himself for us, or however one wishes to put it. He was the atoning sacrifice, the propitiation (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:5-6).

If Christ didn't suffer for us, and bare our sins for us in our stead according to the Bible (1 Peter 2:21-25), I guess I can't read English very well.

Are our sins COVERED, or TAKEN AWAY.

I say forgotten.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

Hebrews 10:17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”

But, there are multiple parties and multiple ages that are addressed in scripture.

1) Man in this age.
2) Man in the next age.
3) God in this age.
4) God in the next age.

So one word does not fit all perspectives, but I say the most important purpose of Jesus' death was to atone for the sins of the saved on judgment day such that our sins are forgotten and not counted against us. We will be judged/rewarded for what good we did in the service of God. The damned will be judged/punished for the sins of their evil heart. We both sin, may even be the same sin, but the difference is that our sins are not held against us.

1stcenturylady said:

Romans 4:6 "just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

But what must David or any Old Testament saint, do to assure the covering of their sin? Sacrifice bulls and goats, etc.

So, here is the question. How many still believe the popular doctrine that the blood of Jesus covers our sins, so as to not be seen by the Father? In other words, like the prodigal son's cloak that covered the filth beneath?

Click to expand...

Sin is an action. Actions are not people, as such scripture addresses the heart of one that commits or refrains from such action. It also deals with the results of such actions; guilt, debt and punishment. To say that sins are taken away is a shortening of what really changes as a result of God's grace. There is the guilt factor that can be alleviated when one repents and receives forgiveness in this age. There is also the eternal consequences of sin which is eternal death. On judgement day, the sins will go unpunished, not literally taken away. There is the earthly result of sin, which God may discipline us in love. Last there is God's view of us when we sin. God when he forgives us, means he still loves us and does not withhold his grace from us even though we do not deserve it.

1stcenturylady said:

Read all the Word again. Study.

Hebrews 10:
3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins...11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

John 1:
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’

Romans 11:27
"For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Click to expand...

Is there such a thing as objective forgiveness or objective justification? I know most Christians teach this, that Christ forgave, justified mankind objectively. And through faith we receive it and it becomes subjective.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Jesus suffered death, both physically and spiritually, in our place so that the wrath of God could be satisfied. God's justice must be exacted against all ungodliness.

Click to expand...

Your image of God is very different than mine. You must see God as wrathful, while I see "God is Love" as 1 John says. God is "gracious and merciful, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, and relenting in punishment. (Joel 2:13)

Exodus 34:6, Numbers 14:18, Nehemiah 9:17, Psalm 86:15, Psalm 103:8, Psalm 145:8, Jeremiah 15:15, Joel 2:13, Jonah 4:2, Nahum 1:3 all say that God is slow to anger.
God despises evil, but he loves his children.

1stcenturylady said:

So, here is the question. How many still believe the popular doctrine that the blood of Jesus covers our sins, so as to not be seen by the Father? In other words, like the prodigal son's cloak that covered the filth beneath?

Click to expand...

Despite all the debate...what difference does it actually make?

A. Does it make a difference in how a Christian is likely to act in this world?

B. Is it a checkbox for salvation?

If it's neither one of those, please help me understand why it's a necessary point on which all Christians must agree.

We will we risen from death incorruptible (without corruption ) and not with covered corruption so he took them away .

Truth Lover said:

Your image of God is very different than mine. You must see God as wrathful, while I see "God is Love" as 1 John says. God is "gracious and merciful, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, and relenting in punishment. (Joel 2:13)

Exodus 34:6, Numbers 14:18, Nehemiah 9:17, Psalm 86:15, Psalm 103:8, Psalm 145:8, Jeremiah 15:15, Joel 2:13, Jonah 4:2, Nahum 1:3 all say that God is slow to anger.
God despises evil, but he loves his children.

Click to expand...

God loves his children, but to imply that he is not wrathful is completely foolish.

... Have you not read Revelation and the part about the wrath of God upon the earth? Have you not read about the locusts with scorpion stingers that torment men five months? Have you not read the fire and brimstone being hailed from heaven upon all men, and the sores upon men's skin? And the angels being loosed from the Euphrates to kill masses upon the earth? And the waters being turned to blood, every green thing being burnt up, and the sun scorching people? Have you not read any of that?

God terrifies me, and he utterly hates evil, and since none are righteous (Romans 3:10), I realize that I deserve all of that as do you. Yet, because I understand all of that and accept that God is wrathful, I am more able to fully appreciate and be grateful for his abounding love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). God is awesome, and amazing, but terrifying and terrible nonetheless, and I do not dare dispute the fact that I am saved when I don't deserve to be, and that his wrath upon me would be just.

RDKirk said:

Despite all the debate...what difference does it actually make?

A. Does it make a difference in how a Christian is likely to act in this world?

B. Is it a checkbox for salvation?

If it's neither one of those, please help me understand why it's a necessary point on which all Christians must agree.

Click to expand...

I think it matters because God wants us to grow in holiness. Catholics believe that justification and growth in holiness are both part of a life long process of salvation. "Be must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect." Matt 5 :48 "Be holy as I am holy. "
How can we be holy if our sins are covered instead of taken away?

Truth Lover said:

I think it matters because God wants us to grow in holiness. Catholics believe that justification and growth in holiness are both part of a life long process of salvation. "Be must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect." Matt 5 :48 "Be holy as I am holy. "
How can we be holy if our sins are covered instead of taken away?

Click to expand...

The truth is that you're only holy because Christ the Lord has caused you to be holy by his righteousness.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

God loves his children, but to imply that he is not wrathful is completely foolish.

... Have you not read Revelation and the part about the wrath of God upon the earth? Have you not read about the locusts with scorpion stingers that torment men five months? Have you not read the fire and brimstone being hailed from heaven upon all men, and the sores upon men's skin? And the angels being loosed from the Euphrates to kill masses upon the earth? And the waters being turned to blood, every green thing being burnt up, and the sun scorching people? Have you not read any of that?

God terrifies me, and he utterly hates evil, and since none are righteous (Romans 3:10), I realize that I deserve all of that as do you. Yet, because I understand all of that and accept that God is wrathful, I am more able to fully appreciate and be grateful for his abounding love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). God is awesome, and amazing, but terrifying and terrible nonetheless, and I do not dare dispute .

Click to expand...

Nicolaus Mourer said:

God loves his children, but to imply that he is not wrathful is completely foolish.

Click to expand...

Have you not read Psalm 30:5 "His anger lasts for a moment, but his favor for a lifetime."

Truth Lover said:

Have you not read Psalm 30:5 "His anger lasts for a moment, but his favor for a lifetime."

Click to expand...

Not if you're unsaved. His wrath lasts for eternity.

Revelation 14:10-11a "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."

Truth Lover said:

I think it matters because God wants us to grow in holiness. Catholics believe that justification and growth in holiness are both part of a life long process of salvation. "Be must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect." Matt 5 :48 "Be holy as I am holy. "
How can we be holy if our sins are covered instead of taken away?

Click to expand...

You didn't really say why it matters. You actually just spoke some Christo-babble (like the technobabble on Star Trek) that didn't really say anything.

"Holiness" means "separateness." A thing which is holy is a thing that has been set apart for an exclusive purpose. A distinction between "sins covered" and "sins taken away" makes no different in holiness. Whichever Christ did would be just as effective if it's what the Father required.

Let me say that again a little differently: Jesus did what the Father required. How we express the mechanics in human terms is irrelevant.

The fact is that we are forgiven by His grace and grace is "Unmerited Favor"
Not a single one of us anywhere deserve the forgiveness of sins that we receive, so praise God for this wonderful grace that is lavished upon us. Grace upon grace!!

A word used in the New Testament a couple times is hilasterion, often translated as "propitiation" or as "mercy seat" (from Luther's German translation of Gnadenstuhl, literally "seat of grace". William Tyndale, in trying to find an adequate word in English actually coined a brand new word: atonement, a compound of at+one+ment to speak of the reconciliatory nature of Christ's work. The word hilasterion is used by the LXX to translate the Hebrew kapporet, "covering [thing]", the location between the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant where blood was sprinkled as a covering for the sins of Israel. The kapporet was literally covered with the blood of sacrifices, which was a ritual act which signified/accomplished the cleansing and forgiveness of the sins of the nation.

This term and concept is then borrowed and assumed into describing Christ's work: Christ is our hilasterion, our kapporet, the location where God forgives us of our sins. Our sins are covered by the work and righteousness of Christ, and the language of covering is used elsewhere, such as in Galatians where the Apostle says that by our baptism we have been clothed/covered with Christ. Christ is our covering, Christ is our righteousness, by which God clothes and covers sinners with His own Son, thereby rendering the sinner justified, not on account of the works of the sinner or any righteousness which the sinner brings before God, but on account of Christ's own righteousness. It is precisely that we are covered by Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, that we have been reckoned righteous and are declared to even be the very righteousness of God. This is pure gift, unearned, unwarranted, granted to us solely by God's own kindness and nothing more.

Our sins are washed away, because they are covered, because they are dealt with by God's mercy, because in Christ God says, "I forgive you" and it is truly done and accomplished. And through faith we receive this very thing, and Christ is put upon us, though we are sinners, and even though we are sinners we are in Christ and clothed with Him in the perfection of His righteousness--and it is this righteousness, Christ's righteousness and not our own, that is our present salvation. For we remain sinners, with no good thing to bring before the good and holy God, and so we come before God not with any glory or works, but only in the righteousness of Christ our Lord, whereby we stand boldly before the throne of grace with nothing to boast in except for Christ and what He has done. For we have no glory in this life, and so we glory in nothing except the life, death, and resurrection of the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

-CryptoLutheran