Why Does Sin Have to be Punished?

AnticipateHisComing

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What i have in mind is the theology (e.g. of many Reformed/Calvinists?), that Jesus bore God's wrath for sin and/or the punishment for sin that we deserved. In that light i previously remarked:

What is the punishment for sin that Jesus bore for sinners? Is the punishment (for sin justly due to sinners) eternal torments? Is Jesus, then, suffering eternal torments?

As another forum member elaborated:

"For me it all simply boils down to this; if eternal hell is the price for sin, then why isn’t Jesus sitting in hell paying that eternal price, for you and me? Him being sinless never
‘changed the price for sin’. And that 'price' was either 'eternal hell' or it was 'physical death'. Being sinless never changed the price of sin, it simply ‘qualified’ sinless Jesus
to vicariously pay 'the price' for us, that we might live again beyond the grave. And He did so by dying an UNJUSTIFIED physical death with a 'very short' time separated from the Father, in our place. And He did so, that we might be JUSTIFIED by His physical death. But the price was never 'eternal separation from God’ and it was never 'burning in Hell eternally' either. If that was 'the price' of sin, then that's where Jesus should eternally be, making payment. Jesus being perfect did not change the price for sin. And that's where orthodoxy's vision needs spiritual glasses to see what religious men have missed."

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
This thread was brought back from the grave by DeeDee79 and his reply to my post. His concern appeared to center on earthly punishment for sins. Although I wanted him to consider that some may only be punished on judgment day, most of the question stayed on earthly punishment.

Your post dwells on the punishment of Jesus to take the place of our punishment. Your doctrine on this is faulty as no scripture speaks of Jesus being punished for our sins. It says he suffered for our sins to "take them away", but what is really meant is that Jesus suffered to take away the punishment we would get for our sins. Further, your belief in penal substitution affects your reading of scripture insisting that Jesus had to be punished just like the damned will be in order to spare us from being damned.
 
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ClementofA

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Isaiah 53
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


If it pleased LORD to bruise his only begotten Son because he put our sins on him ( 2 Corinthians 5:21) , why do you think that it would not please him to put you into lake of fire if you were not saved ?

I think the unsaved at the time of Rev. 20:11-15 will go into the LOF. But this is not their final destiny.

There are some people who think they can bribe God to not punish sin but he can't be bribed Psalms 49:7 , they try to do these wonderful works Matthew 7:21-23 or they try to bribe him through praying to Mary because they think that she can influence God's ability to judge in thier favor . That is delusion .

This is true.

Sin must be punished because it steals the glory of God . God is perfect love but also perfect and Just Judge . He can't let you go because he would be partaker in crime himself .

IMO Christ became the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), even the sins of all mankind (1 Jn.2:2). This is to God's glory, but will not be fulfilled in this world.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Can you provide proof of such a distinction? Including proof that "punishment" is not disciplinary? The Greek word often translated "punishment" (kolasin) at Mt.25:46 can mean "correction" & some translations render it there as such or "chastening", etc. Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Isaiah 29:24
"Those who err in mind will know the truth, And those who criticize will accept instruction.

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.
The word used punish/discipline/correct/chastise means nothing. Context means everything. The same word may be used for the same action that is perceived as punishment or discipline. What matters is the purpose and outcome and if it is done to one saved.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Hebrews 12:5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”​

It should be obvious that those two texts refer to the saved. Now contrast them with the punishment of those not saved. It should be clear that in these texts, the damned do not learn and repent for their betterment.

1 Thessalonians 4:6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.​

So just because the same word in one language might be used to describe bad things that come to people as a result of them doing bad things, does not mean that the purpose and result is the same for two different people.
I rightly judge God, in agreement with the Sacred Scriptures, to not be a "sadist". Do you not agree?

There is no comparison between the momentary, light, just judgments of Sodom or the flood - and that of endless torments. Yes, such temporary judgments are always done in love by One Who is, above all, Love. Just as a father disciplines a child.

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

Likewise there is:

1 Cor 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Cor.11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
You have NO right to judge God and say what punishments he is able to give and which would be deemed inhumane or sadistic.

As to Sodom and the flood, earthly punishments dealt to those without God in their lives that result in earthly death have also an eternal punishment as there is no chance for those individuals to change their position once dead. If you think that a punishment of death of one not saved has the ability to work good in that person such that after death they may repent and be saved, you belief a doctrine that has no scriptural support. It should be obvious that not all punishments are intended to work good in the punished individual.

I believe our contention is on the ability of God to punish those not in the Church, so your texts don't apply to that argument.
 
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ClementofA

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The word used punish/discipline/correct/chastise means nothing. Context means everything. The same word may be used for the same action that is perceived as punishment or discipline. What matters is the purpose and outcome and if it is done to one saved.

You are correct that context is important. IMO in the context of Mt.25:46 the punishment referred to means correction for the wicked.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Hebrews 12:5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”​

Rev.3:19 All those I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent!

Who does God love? The whole world - John 3:16.


It should be obvious that those two texts refer to the saved. Now contrast them with the punishment of those not saved. It should be clear that in these texts, the damned do not learn and repent for their betterment.

Whether or not the "damned...learn" from God's corrective punishment is a separate issue from what God's purpose is in those punishments, namely correction.


1 Thessalonians 4:6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.​

So just because the same word in one language might be used to describe bad things that come to people as a result of them doing bad things, does not mean that the purpose and result is the same for two different people.

Let us note that the Greek word for "punishment" (2 Pet.2:9) can mean "correct":
Strong's Greek: 2849. κολάζω (kolazó) -- to chastise

Your reference above should be 2 Thessalonians, not 1 Thessalonians. More literal & IMO more accurate translations of verse 9 read:

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ??????? (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal


You have NO right to judge God and say what punishments he is able to give and which would be deemed inhumane or sadistic.

I do when Scripture agrees with me. As i said, I rightly judge God, in agreement with the Sacred Scriptures, to not be a "sadist". Do you not agree? Can you point me to any Scriptures that say "God is a sadist"? To the contrary, God is love.

As to Sodom and the flood, earthly punishments dealt to those without God in their lives that result in earthly death have also an eternal punishment as there is no chance for those individuals to change their position once dead. If you think that a punishment of death of one not saved has the ability to work good in that person such that after death they may repent and be saved, you belief a doctrine that has no scriptural support. It should be obvious that not all punishments are intended to work good in the punished individual.

I believe our contention is on the ability of God to punish those not in the Church, so your texts don't apply to that argument.

I believe those who die as unsaved children will not be sentenced be "eternal punishment". So IMO your claim "there is no chance for those individuals to change their position once dead" is incorrect. This topic of babies & children who died without being born again has been discussed in this topic:

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

As further evidence to the chance for salvation of the lost after death, i submit the following from 1 Peter 3 & 4:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

"For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Moreover, i would also submit that there is the possibility of postmortem salvation of the unbeliever based on verses listed at the following url:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

If you wish to discuss those, it will have to be in the Controversial Christian Theology forum here:

Controversial Christian Theology
 
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Traveling teacher

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God is the same yesterday today and forever
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; o
he cannot change.....

in other words He is what He is....
Yahweh is eternal and always will be
Hebrews 3:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"
exodus 3:14
 
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ClementofA

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Your post dwells on the punishment of Jesus to take the place of our punishment. Your doctrine on this is faulty as no scripture speaks of Jesus being punished for our sins. It says he suffered for our sins to "take them away", but what is really meant is that Jesus suffered to take away the punishment we would get for our sins. Further, your belief in penal substitution affects your reading of scripture insisting that Jesus had to be punished just like the damned will be in order to spare us from being damned.

Thank you for your well explained response.

Re what you call my "doctrine", i did not express my own personal doctrine in the post, but asked some questions & posted another members comments for consideration.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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You are correct that context is important. IMO in the context of Mt.25:46 the punishment referred to means correction for the wicked.



Rev.3:19 All those I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent!

Who does God love? The whole world - John 3:16.




Whether or not the "damned...learn" from God's corrective punishment is a separate issue from what God's purpose is in those punishments, namely correction.




Let us note that the Greek word for "punishment" (2 Pet.2:9) can mean "correct":
Strong's Greek: 2849. κολάζω (kolazó) -- to chastise

Your reference above should be 2 Thessalonians, not 1 Thessalonians. More literal & IMO more accurate translations of verse 9 read:

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ??????? (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal




I do when Scripture agrees with me. As i said, I rightly judge God, in agreement with the Sacred Scriptures, to not be a "sadist". Do you not agree? Can you point me to any Scriptures that say "God is a sadist"? To the contrary, God is love.



I believe those who die as unsaved children will not be sentenced be "eternal punishment". So IMO your claim "there is no chance for those individuals to change their position once dead" is incorrect. This topic of babies & children who died without being born again has been discussed in this topic:

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

As further evidence to the chance for salvation of the lost after death, i submit the following from 1 Peter 3 & 4:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

"For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Moreover, i would also submit that there is the possibility of postmortem salvation of the unbeliever based on verses listed at the following url:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

If you wish to discuss those, it will have to be in the Controversial Christian Theology forum here:

Controversial Christian Theology
So you argue a word with multiple meanings can mean "correct", so it always means "correct" and never means "punish". There are plenty of texts in scripture which speaks of God's wrath and punishment that does not have the purpose of you insist in of having a positive loving purpose for the one punished.

Sinners are punished by God. For their own good (e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5). Never sadistically, pointlessly, endlessly, or without a positive loving purpose in mind.

Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—​

Regardless, I will make this as simple as possible. One criminal is sentenced to a correctional facility, the other is sentenced to death. There is no chance for the one that dies for his sentence to be improved by his punishment, that it has a positive loving purpose.

You play games with the example of Sodom and Gomorrah. We are not talking about cities condemned by God to death because of the position of any children there. The men were condemned because the men wanted to have homosexual sex with the angels. God found them detestable. Regardless of the future of children, the punishment was an example of God's righteous wrath, just like the flood. The people that died received no positive loving benefit in their punishment.

I will restate my earlier comment of

If life has no consequences,
there is no purpose in life.

If sins have no consequences,
there is no purpose in Jesus' death, life, teachings.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Thank you for your well explained response.

Re what you call my "doctrine", i did not express my own personal doctrine in the post, but asked some questions & posted another members comments for consideration.
Nice way to ignore my correcting your posts; scripture does not teach or say that Jesus was punished in his death and suffering. Anyone that argues so, or quotes another arguing so is in error.
 
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ClementofA

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Nice way to ignore my correcting your posts; scripture does not teach or say that Jesus was punished in his death and suffering. Anyone that argues so, or quotes another arguing so is in error.

You have corrected nothing i have stated a belief in. I corrected you in saying:

"Thank you for your well explained response.

Re what you call my "doctrine", i did not express my own personal doctrine in the post, but asked some questions & posted another members comments for consideration."
 
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ClementofA

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So you argue a word with multiple meanings can mean "correct", so it always means "correct" and never means "punish".

No, as i've said before, context determines meaning. In this case it supports the meaning of "correct".

There are plenty of texts in scripture which speaks of God's wrath and punishment that does not have the purpose of you insist in of having a positive loving purpose for the one punished.

We disagree on this point.


Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—​

Regardless, I will make this as simple as possible. One criminal is sentenced to a correctional facility, the other is sentenced to death. There is no chance for the one that dies for his sentence to be improved by his punishment, that it has a positive loving purpose.

Who can say if the one sentenced to death will not have, so to speak, a so-called "death bed repentance"? Can you? Such actually happens (e.g. the thief on the cross with Jesus). So who knows how many of Sodom & in the flood of Noah's day repented before death. Or, immediately after death, if still lost, they go to Hades where the rich man was hearing the word of the Lord (Lk.16:19-31) for his correction:

Lk. 16:19-31:
Hell

You play games with the example of Sodom and Gomorrah. We are not talking about cities condemned by God to death because of the position of any children there. The men were condemned because the men wanted to have homosexual sex with the angels. God found them detestable. Regardless of the future of children, the punishment was an example of God's righteous wrath, just like the flood. The people that died received no positive loving benefit in their punishment.

See my previous comment above re "death bed repentance" & Lk.16:19-31. Regarding the destruction of Sodom being an "example of God's righteous wrath", that is true. But that doesn't mean it wasn't corrective. Suffering His wrath does not prove that those who suffer it cannot be saved. In fact, to the contrary, Scriptures (i already gave you) clearly show examples of those who have suffered His "wrath" could be corrected by it and saved. There is no case to the contrary where His wrath is purely vindictive and/or sadistic.


I will restate my earlier comment of

If life has no consequences,
there is no purpose in life.

If sins have no consequences,
there is no purpose in Jesus' death, life, teachings.

I have no disagreement with these remarks. Scripture states that we reap what we sow. And there is a postmortem "hell" no one wants to experience.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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You have corrected nothing i have stated a belief in. I corrected you in saying:

"Thank you for your well explained response.

Re what you call my "doctrine", i did not express my own personal doctrine in the post, but asked some questions & posted another members comments for consideration."
Scripture does not teach Jesus was punished for our sins. It teaches he suffered. I corrected your wishy washy and or statement "Jesus bore God's wrath for sin and/or the punishment for sin". You don't want to defend your statement. You want to play games and say your post was quoting another, that may or may not be what you believe.
 
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ClementofA

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Scripture does not teach Jesus was punished for our sins. It teaches he suffered. I corrected your wishy washy and or statement "Jesus bore God's wrath for sin and/or the punishment for sin". You don't want to defend your statement. You want to play games and say your post was quoting another, that may or may not be what you believe.

Here's what i said in its proper context:

"What i have in mind is the theology (e.g. of many Reformed/Calvinists?), that Jesus bore God's wrath for sin and/or the punishment for sin that we deserved. In that light i previously remarked:"

"What is the punishment for sin that Jesus bore for sinners? Is the punishment (for sin justly due to sinners) eternal torments? Is Jesus, then, suffering eternal torments?"

Which states nothing about my own personal beliefs or theology. And, BTW, I'm not of the "Reformed/Calvinists", either. God forbid.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Who can say if the one sentenced to death will not have, so to speak, a so-called "death bed repentance"? Can you? Such actually happens (e.g. the thief on the cross with Jesus). So who knows how many of Sodom & in the flood of Noah's day repented before death. Or, immediately after death, if still lost, they go to Hades where the rich man was hearing the word of the Lord (Lk.16:19-31) for his correction:

Lk. 16:19-31
There is no way for one to move from hell to heaven as Luke 16:26 teaches.

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

That means that when God punishes one not saved to death, he also punishes them to hell. That means there is no possibility that their death punishment will benefit them. Judge God all you want to your own demise.
 
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Inkfingers

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Perhaps "punished" is a misunderstanding.

Perhaps it is simply that acts have consequences in-keeping with their nature - like the proverbial sticking you hand in a flame?

And the consequence of rebellion against God is a world of the personal and thus the limited; and thus the mortal....
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Here's what i said in its proper context:

"What i have in mind is the theology (e.g. of many Reformed/Calvinists?), that Jesus bore God's wrath for sin and/or the punishment for sin that we deserved. In that light i previously remarked:"

"What is the punishment for sin that Jesus bore for sinners? Is the punishment (for sin justly due to sinners) eternal torments? Is Jesus, then, suffering eternal torments?"

Which states nothing about my own personal beliefs or theology. And, BTW, I'm not of the "Reformed/Calvinists", either. God forbid.
And all you can do is restate what you have restated multiple times. You fail to defend the incorrect that God punished Jesus for our sins. Because you can't.
 
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ClementofA

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And all you can do is restate what you have restated multiple times. You fail to defend the incorrect that God punished Jesus for our sins. Because you can't.

Why would i want to "defend" something i don't even believe in? My post was for those (Reformed/Calvinists?) who do believe in it to respond to the comment of the person i quoted. Since you don't believe in it AFAIC your remarks are irrelevant to the topic.
 
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There is no way for one to move from hell to heaven as Luke 16:26 teaches.

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

That means that when God punishes one not saved to death, he also punishes them to hell. That means there is no possibility that their death punishment will benefit them. Judge God all you want to your own demise.

I already gave you a link to my comments on that parable:

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.


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We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
 
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