OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

justbyfaith · Jun 20, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Abraham's Bossom is not in hell.
Hell is hell.

Please read Luke 16:19-31 again.
There is a chasm between Abraham's Bossom and hell.
Luke 16:26

Also, those in Abraham's Bossom were already saved...Jesus did not have to preach to them again.

I disagree. For I have been taught what I believe to be sound doctrine (see Titus 1:9): that Abraham's bosom was the compartment of the righteous before Jesus died on the Cross. Of course, now, when the righteous die, they got straight to heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8).

GodsGrace101 · Jun 20, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I disagree. For I have been taught what I believe to be sound doctrine: that Abraham's bosom was the compartment of the righteous before Jesus died on the Cross. Of course, now, when the righteous die, they got straight to heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8).

This is true.
But it's not what you had originally said.

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I'll give you a hint: Jesus' statement in Matthew 19:17 is Jesus using the law as a schoolmaster to lead the rich young ruler to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). And after being justified by faith alone in Christ alone, what I believe is that He places His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5) which is the fulfilling of the commandments (Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10).

However, you cannot have this love apart from real faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5). And that means not trusting in your works to save you (Romans 4:1-8, Matthew 7:22, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20).

We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19) and gave salvation to us freely as a gift (Romans 5:15-19, Romans 6:23).

I'm only going to comment on one thing you said here. You said what you 'believe is that He places His love in our hearts'.

What should we do with that love placed in our hearts?

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Now, we do see the word 'perfect' in this verse. The love of God placed in our hearts is 'perfected' when we keep His word. And by keeping His word, we know that we are in Him.

1 John 2:10
He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Here John brings up one of the commandments Jesus told us to keep. When we keep this commandment, we abide in the light.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Here we see how the children of God and the children of the devil are manifested. Whoever does not righteousness (here we see righteousness is something we do), is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. We have two conditions to be a child of God.

1 John 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

This is the message John heard from Jesus from the beginning. We should love one another, a commandment of Jesus.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Now we see why we are to love the brethren, again, a commandment of Jesus. We have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren. This goes right along with what Jesus said. If you want to enter life (pass from death unto life), keep the commandments (the two great commandments are to love God, and our neighbor).

1 John 3:17
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

How do we know if the love of God is in our hearts? If we see a brother in need and shut our compassion from him, we know the love of God does not dwell in us.

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

The two great commandments from Jesus are about love. John says we not to love in word and tongue (in other words, just say you love someone), but love in deed (action, works) and in truth.

1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We now have His commandment that should believe (faith) on the name of Jesus, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. So, it's not just faith alone.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Here's an very important aspect of love. Everyone who loves, that is in deed and truth, is born of God and knows God. Do I need to comment on the importance of loving others in deed and truth? If one doesn't love others, that is, keep His commandments, is not born of God, nor does he know God.

If this verse doesn't shake an unbelieving and idle heart, then nothing will.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Once again, John stresses the importance of love, that is, in deed and truth. If you don't love, you do not know God.

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

If we do not love one another, God does not dwell in us.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Again, John stresses the point of when we dwell in love, we dwell in God and God in us.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

I hope you are seeing what John is saying about love. If we do not love our brother, in deed and truth, we are a liar.

1 John 4:21
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Again, a commandment of Jesus is mentioned.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

And finally, John says by loving God and keeping His commandments, we know we love the children of God. Again, a commandment of Jesus is mentioned.

Hopefully you will see how important Jesus' commandments are. By keeping them, we are assured of knowing God and entering life.

justbyfaith · Jun 20, 2018

Nicolaus Mourer said:
When you say we can't sin a certain way as a condition of our salvation, you are trusting your own righteousness and goodness by not sinning, and not trusting the promise of God or his grace, which says, "In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before the world began;" This therefore makes you both a liar and a hypocrite, because you sin every single day, and every single day you deserve hell by your own actions, but only by God's mercy through his Son are you spared from what you deserve, as we all are, if we place our trust in Christ. Worse than that though, you are calling God a liar, because if you say that we must cease from sin as a condition of our salvation, then you frustrate the grace of God by doing the works of the law (ceasing from sin), and make the cross of Christ of none effect to yourself (Galatians 2:21). Why? Because you are not trusting Christ to save you from your own wickedness, but are instead depending upon your ability to stop sinning.

Repenting of sin frustrates the grace of God? I believe that you are mistaken here. God tells us to repent as a condition for salvation in scripture (Matthew 3:8-12, 2 Corinthians 7:10, Luke 13:1-5, many verses in the book of Acts).

Nicolaus Mourer said:
it's through faith alone on Christ, which is the will of the Father mentioned in the previous verse,

I would point out that it is also the will of the Father that we abstain from fornication (1 Thessalonians 4:2-8) and give thanks in every thing (1 Thessalonians 5:18). And these are not the only things in scripture mentioned as being the will of God.

EmSw said:
I'm only going to comment on one thing you said here. You said what you 'believe is that He places His love in our hearts'.

What should we do with that love placed in our hearts?

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Now, we do see the word 'perfect' in this verse. The love of God placed in our hearts is 'perfected' when we keep His word. And by keeping His word, we know that we are in Him.

1 John 2:10
He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Here John brings up one of the commandments Jesus told us to keep. When we keep this commandment, we abide in the light.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Here we see how the children of God and the children of the devil are manifested. Whoever does not righteousness (here we see righteousness is something we do), is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. We have two conditions to be a child of God.

1 John 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

This is the message John heard from Jesus from the beginning. We should love one another, a commandment of Jesus.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Now we see why we are to love the brethren, again, a commandment of Jesus. We have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren. This goes right along with what Jesus said. If you want to enter life (pass from death unto life), keep the commandments (the two great commandments are to love God, and our neighbor).

1 John 3:17
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

How do we know if the love of God is in our hearts? If we see a brother in need and shut our compassion from him, we know the love of God does not dwell in us.

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

The two great commandments from Jesus are about love. John says we not to love in word and tongue (in other words, just say you love someone), but love in deed (action, works) and in truth.

1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We now have His commandment that should believe (faith) on the name of Jesus, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. So, it's not just faith alone.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Here's an very important aspect of love. Everyone who loves, that is in deed and truth, is born of God and knows God. Do I need to comment on the importance of loving others in deed and truth? If one doesn't love others, that is, keep His commandments, is not born of God, nor does he know God.

If this verse doesn't shake an unbelieving and idle heart, then nothing will.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Once again, John stresses the importance of love, that is, in deed and truth. If you don't love, you do not know God.

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

If we do not love one another, God does not dwell in us.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Again, John stresses the point of when we dwell in love, we dwell in God and God in us.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

I hope you are seeing what John is saying about love. If we do not love our brother, in deed and truth, we are a liar.

1 John 4:21
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Again, a commandment of Jesus is mentioned.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

And finally, John says by loving God and keeping His commandments, we know we love the children of God. Again, a commandment of Jesus is mentioned.

Hopefully you will see how important Jesus' commandments are. By keeping them, we are assured of knowing God and entering life.

My friend, you are preaching to the choir. I obey the commandment to love the brethren; in fact I also obey the commandment to love my enemies. But not because I see it as a requirement that I would be condemned by if I failed to keep it. It is because I am born again of the Holy Spirit that the love of God is shed abroad in my heart; and it does indeed work itself out practically in my life; because of my faith in Jesus Christ and not because I am seeking to obey a requirement. It comes supernaturally as a result of faith with no effort involved; because He has changed my heart.

I would say one other thing: in the case of a marriage, a wife needs to hear it from her husband the words, "I love you" from time to time. So in that case, I would say that 1 John 3:18 means that we are not to love in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth. So I tell my wife on a regular basis that I love her; and I also show it by my deeds in our relationship.

justbyfaith · Jun 20, 2018

And yes, I most certainly believe that by keeping the commandments, we are keeping the specifics of the love of God.

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

justbyfaith said:
My friend, you are preaching to the choir. I obey the commandment to love the brethren; in fact I also obey the commandment to love my enemies. But not because I see it as a requirement that I would be condemned by if I failed to keep it. It is because I am born again of the Holy Spirit that the love of God is shed abroad in my heart; and it does indeed work itself out practically in my life; because of my faith in Jesus Christ and not because I am seeking to obey a requirement. It comes supernaturally as a result of faith with no effort involved; because He has changed my heart.

You don't see a command as a requirement? Here is the definition of command according to dictionary.com -

to direct with specific authority or prerogative; order:The captain commanded his men to attack.
to require authoritatively; demand:She commanded silence.
to have or exercise authority or control over; be master of; have at one's bidding or disposal:

Notice the second definition. A command is to require authoritatively. A command is not a suggestion, nor is it to be ignored. A command has some kind of consequence with it, whether it be positive or negative.

I notice you didn't comment on this passage from John -

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Everyone that loves is born of God. If one doesn't love, or obey Jesus' commandment to love is not born of God. Nor do they know God. So tell us how you think a person is not condemned if they don't obey Jesus' command to love. Are there people in Heaven who are not born of God?

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

Major1 said:
James 2:10 ….
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

My suggestion is to love God and your neighbor, the two great commandments.

Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

If you don't love, you aren't born of God. It's very simple.

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

Major1 said:
It is indeed sad for me to see someone as intelligent as you be so deceived as to make such a comment.

Who was it that killed the animals in Genesis 4 to cover the sin of Adam and Eve shedding the blood of innocent animals for mans sin??? JESUS!!! That was Substitionary Atonement my
friend.

Who was it that told Cain and Abel the correct sacrifice to bring to the worship service ?JESUS.

Who was it that told Moses about placing the blood of a perfect lamb over the door post thus promoting the 1st "Passover"? JESUS. The shed blood of the lamb saved the 1st born. That was Substitutionary Atonement.

Substitutionary Atonement is as Old as Creation and JESUS is the Creator of all things.

Killing animals to clothe Adam and Eve was not an atonement. The clothing did not amend anything.

What did the Passover amend or atone?

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

Major1 said:
Ephesians 2:8...….
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Nine Scriptures out of more than 100 that say WORKS DO NOT SAVE...…………………….
1.) Rom. 4:6-7 - God imputes "Righteousness without works."
2). Rom. 10:3 - It's a grave mistake for anyone to try to, "Establish their own righteousness."
4. Rom. 5:17 - Heaven deserving righteousness is a "GIFT," not something you earn.
5. Rom. 5:18 - Justification to God is a "FREE GIFT," not something you work toward.
6. Phil. 3:9 - Paul, as ‘good’ as he was, still wouldn't trust his "Own righteousness" to save him.
7. Rom. 3:22 - God's righteousness is credited to "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE," not all that work.
8. Rom. 8:3-4 - The flesh is too "Weak" to save itself. We need a Saviour. We need Christ.
9. Rom. 4:3 - Abraham's faith, not works, "Was counted unto him for righteousness."
10. Rom. 4:4-5 - Works are "Not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
11. Gal. 3:10 - To earn Heaven you'd have to "Continueth," perfectly, in the whole law.
12. Titus 3:5 - "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Just as a suggestion. Why not spend more time reading the Bible instead of posting mistakes and false doctrines on web sites?

Did Jesus require you to keep His commandments? Did you know a commandment is an order and a charge?

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

amariselle said:
I never said otherwise. This has always been my point, Scripture is clear, there is ONE Saviour.

How did the Savior say to receive life in the Old Testament? Do you have any OT passages in mind?

amariselle · Jun 20, 2018

EmSw said:
How did the Savior say to receive life in the Old Testament? Do you have any OT passages in mind?

I already addressed this and I gave you passages. I’m not going over it again.

justbyfaith · Jun 20, 2018

EmSw said:
You don't see a command as a requirement? Here is the definition of command according to dictionary.com -

to direct with specific authority or prerogative; order:The captain commanded his men to attack.

to require authoritatively; demand:She commanded silence.

to have or exercise authority or control over; be master of; have at one's bidding or disposal:

Notice the second definition. A command is to require authoritatively. A command is not a suggestion, nor is it to be ignored. A command has some kind of consequence with it, whether it be positive or negative.

I notice you didn't comment on this passage from John -

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Everyone that loves is born of God. If one doesn't love, or obey Jesus' commandment to love is not born of God. Nor do they know God. So tell us how you think a person is not condemned if they don't obey Jesus' command to love. Are there people in Heaven who are not born of God?

Romans 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 7:4, Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ: that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 2:19, For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Ephesians 2:15-16, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances: for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace: And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the Cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Colossians 2:14, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Hebrews 7:16-19, Who is made, not after the the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedec. For there is verily a disanulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw night unto God.

Now, what all of these scriptures mean is that the requirement no longer has the power to condemn the born again believer; and that we are not governed by the law as a principle coming to us from the outside, as commandments written on stone (see 2 Corinthians 3:1-18):

Rather, as born again believers the law governs us from the inside of our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4-7); as love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14) and is also shed abroad in the heart of every born again believer (Romans 5:5).

We are now governed by the indwelling Holy Ghost and not the threat of condemnation that the law brings. If you will understand all of the verses quoted above, you will see that they are saying that the condemnation of the law is now made null and void for those who are in Christ, who as a general rule walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Romans 8:1); because through faith in Christ the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Yes, a command is a requirement; however because I am in Christ the requirement is no longer able to condemn me because I am forgiven through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

justbyfaith · Jun 20, 2018

EmSw said:
Everyone that loves is born of God. If one doesn't love, or obey Jesus' commandment to love is not born of God. Nor do they know God. So tell us how you think a person is not condemned if they don't obey Jesus' command to love. Are there people in Heaven who are not born of God?

For you, the commandment to love (even your enemies, perfectly) is a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ; because you are attempting to keep that commandment in the power of the flesh and you will ultimately fail at it.

For those who are born again, we do not keep the commandment to love because we are attempting to keep the commandment to love; rather we keep it because Christ has done a work in our hearts and we cannot help but love other people and God: we are transformed within and it is in our born again nature to love God and other people.

In one case, it is an attempt to earn salvation through works, which the Bible says is not going to happen (Ephesians 2:9 and context). In the other, we do the works because we are forgiven and saved, and filled with the love of God as a sovereign work of the Holy Ghost within our hearts (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

amariselle said:
I already addressed this and I gave you passages. I’m not going over it again.

I know; however, you didn't give one OT passage which even included the word life. Surely you can do that. If I can do it, anybody can do it.

justbyfaith · Jun 20, 2018

EmSw said:
I know; however, you didn't give one OT passage which even included the word life. Surely you can do that. If I can do it, anybody can do it.

The just shall live by faith. Habakkuk 2:4.

I think the word live is a derivative of the word life.

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Now, what all of these scriptures mean is that the requirement no longer has the power to condemn the born again believer; and that we are not governed by the law as a principle coming to us from the outside, as commandments written on stone:

Rather, as born again believers the law governs us from the inside of our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4-7); as love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14) and is also shed abroad in the heart of every born again believer (Romans 5:5).

We are now governed by the indwelling Holy Ghost and not the threat of condemnation that the law brings. If you will understand all of the verses quoted above, you will see that they are saying that the condemnation of the law is now made null and void for those who are in Christ, who as a general rule walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Romans 8:1); because through faith in Christ the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Yes, a command is a requirement; however because I am in Christ the requirement is no longer able to condemn me because I am forgiven through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

This is the second time you didn't comment on this passage from John -

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

To love one another is a command from Jesus. How do you suggest one is born of God without loving one another? This is an order. You nor any other believer is exempt from Jesus' commands.

amariselle · Jun 20, 2018

EmSw said:
I know; however, you didn't give one OT passage which even included the word life. Surely you can do that. If I can do it, anybody can do it.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Again, salvation always has been, is currently and always will be in Christ alone. No one is saved any other way.

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

justbyfaith said:
For you, the commandment to love (even your enemies, perfectly) is a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ; because you are attempting to keep that commandment in the power of the flesh and you will ultimately fail at it.

For those who are born again, we do not keep the commandment to love because we are attempting to keep the commandment to love; rather we keep it because Christ has done a work in our hearts and we cannot help but love other people and God: we are transformed within and it is in our born again nature to love God and other people.

In one case, it is an attempt to earn salvation through works, which the Bible says is not going to happen (Ephesians 2:9 and context). In the other, we do the works because we are forgiven and saved, and filled with the love of God as a sovereign work of the Holy Ghost within our hearts (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

Why do you say I attempt to keep that commandment in the power of the flesh? Why do so many think the law is some kind of evil for believers? Why not say I keep that law because it is written in my heart?

You are the first person I know where love comes flowing without any thoughts of hatred, contempt, or bitterness towards others. Congratulations. Most people, believers included, have to battle against hatred towards others. But that is good of you. Keep it up.

EmSw · Jun 20, 2018

amariselle said:
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Again, salvation always has been, is currently and always will be in Christ alone. No one is saved any other way.

Look, I don't know why you won't give one OT passage which tells how they received life. I don't know what you are trying to hide. I gave several and it was a piece of cake. Here, I will give two again to show you how easy it is.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

justbyfaith · Jun 20, 2018

Reaping time:

A sure foundation.

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

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