Do you know why a Christian cannot willfully sin

1stcenturylady · Jun 20, 2018

Didaskalos said:
I would say the verse is talking about the reborn spirit that lives in us. It is not talking about the flesh. It specifically says the part of you that is born again. That is your spirit. It specifically says the part of you that is the seed of God. Your flesh is not the seed of God, your spirit is. I do like that you bring out we cannot sin. I have pointed this out for many years. Several of my books are built on this principle... one such is "How to Never Sin Again." Teaches that if you walk according to the inclinations of your reborn spirit, you will never sin... or as 1 John 3:9 says, you cannot sin. That is literally correct.

A red flag went up in me when I read this section of your post that I need clarified.

On the surface it sounds like we agree, but I do know for sure, so let me ask you a question that will tell me everything I need to know. When you say "flesh," are you meaning our carnal nature or our body? For example, do you believe when 1 John 3:9 says, you cannot sin, does the include committing fornication or not?

DaveDavids · Jun 20, 2018

The etymology of repent in Greek basically says it means to consider one's actions after they have committed them

That's a continual lifelong process ( for most of us )

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 20, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
A red flag when up in me when I read this section of your post that I need clarified.

On the surface it sounds like we agree, but I do know for sure, so let me ask you a question that will tell me everything I need to know. When you say "flesh," are you meaning our carnal nature or our body? For example, do you believe when 1 John 3:9 says, you cannot sin, does the include committing fornication or not?

There is no fornication in our reborn spirit. The reborn spirit is the seed of the Father. The reborn spirit cannot fornicate.
The body soul union wants to and if we yield to it, we can fornicate in the flesh. But never in the spirit.
A prime example is the Corinthian fornicator spoken of in 1 Corinthians 5.

1 Corinthians 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Notice the phrase:
vs 1 - among you
vs 2 - might be taken away from you
vs 5 - that the spirit might be saved

So it is evident that this fornicator was saved... and was about to have his flesh destroyed so that his spirit would make it through to the day of the Lord Jesus.
This is a sin "not unto death" - spiritual death that is.

1stcenturylady · Jun 20, 2018

D. A. Taylor said:
If you look at I John 1:8 in it's entire context, you will see that John is writing to Christians in general. Notice how he always includes himself in every statement:

These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete. This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us (1 John 1:4-10).

John is quite clear: Try as hard as we may, there will always be some element of sin in our lives, simply because we are flesh. Nevertheless, if a Christian "walks in the light" and does his or her best to avoid sin, Christ's sacrifice covers these occasional sins. We see this principle again in I John 3:4-8:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

But Paul states the situation much more clearly:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin (Romans 7:14-25).

We teach the opposite of one another, and you are entitled to your opinion, but speaking in the first person, even when referring to unbelievers, is just from the Semitic style of writing. All the apostles were Jews - Semites - Hebrews. You are understanding with Western thinking. Let's take an example from Romans 7. "9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me." This is first person, but was Paul alive before the law was delivered on Mount Sinai?

Everyone who refutes with 1 John 1:8 always without fail also include Romans 7:14-25, never including the adjoining verse that would make clear what the apostle is saying.

1 John 1:8 must always be understood in context with 1 John 1:9. "But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Together they show a self-righteous unbeliever how to be saved.

Romans 7:14-25 must always be understood in context with Romans 7:13. "Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." This is about what the law could NOT accomplish. It could not do anything about the sin in us. Jesus took away our SIN.

1stcenturylady · Jun 20, 2018

Didaskalos said:
There is no fornication in our reborn spirit. The reborn spirit is the seed of the Father. The reborn spirit cannot fornicate.
The body soul union wants to and if we yield to it, we can fornicate in the flesh. But never in the spirit.

So are you saying if we fornicate with our flesh - you say is our body, it is NOT a willful sin in our spirit?

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 20, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
So are you saying if we fornicate with our flesh - you say is our body, it is NOT a willful sin in our spirit?

I would have to say that the "will" does not exist in the spirit. The spirit is a source. The body is a source. Will exists in the soul, or mind. "You" are your soul. When you say "I" it is your soul speaking. The soul is the seat of identity and consciousness. you are lead either by the flesh or the spirit. Neither of them have the ability to act alone. Take away the soul, and you can do nothing. So I would have to say that the phrase "a willful sin in our spirit" is like saying a tree willfully puts forth good (or bad) fruit.
A tree is going to only and always put forth whatever kind of fruit determined by it's nature.

1stcenturylady · Jun 20, 2018

Didaskalos said:
I would have to say that the "will" does not exist in the spirit. The spirit is a source. The body is a source. Will exists in the soul, or mind. "You" are your soul. When you say "I" it is your soul speaking. The soul is the seat of identity and consciousness. you are lead either by the flesh or the spirit. Neither of them have the ability to act alone. Take away the soul, and you can do nothing. So I would have to say that the phrase "a willful sin in our spirit" is like saying a tree willfully puts forth good (or bad) fruit.
A tree is going to only and always put forth whatever kind of fruit determined by it's nature.

Where is the nature? Does our spirit control our flesh? If you cannot sin, does that mean we cannot murder?

Uber Genius · Jun 20, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him. ~Malachi 3:18

Non sequitur.

This verse has nothing to do with hamartiology!

You are lifting verse out of context without any exegetical justification whatsoever. This is how cult groups and atheists create strawmen out of Christian theology.

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 20, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Where is the nature? Does our spirit control our flesh? If you cannot sin, does that mean we cannot murder?

You have the flesh (soul body union) and the spirit (reborn nature of God).
You can follow either one. If you follow the nature of the reborn spirit, you will never sin. If you walk in the flesh... you probably will.
As you renew the mind, the mind will begin to follow the inclinations of the spirit and suppress the flesh.
I think all this is pretty well drawn out in the NT. First that comes to mind is Galatians 5.

Gal 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Pretty clear that both of these exist in us. The flesh is not born again. Yet it is clear here and elsewhere that there is nothing forcing you to walk in the spirit. You (soul mind will) can walk in the flesh. All this would be moot if you could not. Paul was writing to born again believers here telling them not to walk in the flesh, and if they did, they would sin. But if they walked in the spirit, then would not sin.

Uber Genius · Jun 20, 2018

An exegetical disaster that makes God merciful UNTIL one becomes a follower and a tyrant afterwards. Incoherent. The data of scripture shows how to live by the spirit as we mature to we sin less but the classifications suggested in the OP don't exist in the NEw Covenant.

The argument for perfection relies on misreading or eisogeting (reading meaning into) scripture.

Danthemailman · Jun 20, 2018

1 John 3:9 (AMPC) - No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

112358 · Jun 20, 2018

Opened this door. Peeked inside. Yikes! Bye. :wave:

1stcenturylady · Jun 20, 2018

112358 said:
Opened this door. Peeked inside. Yikes! Bye.

1stcenturylady · Jun 20, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
e still sin sometimes (though maybe not as much) after being saved or whatever... But we are not considered "sinners" anymore, even though we still do sometimes sin sometimes... Cause sin is not charged against us anymore...

What type of sins are not charged against us anymore? Murder? Theft? Adultery? Fornication? What?

1stcenturylady · Jun 20, 2018

Didaskalos said:
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Notice the phrase:
vs 1 - among you
vs 2 - might be taken away from you
vs 5 - that the spirit might be saved

When this mentions flesh, do you think it is when the body dies, or our carnal nature?

It seems you believe it is when the body dies, that person in incest with his step-mother is saved, but you are wrong. Turning someone in blatant sin over to the devil is for them to repent so they may be saved.

In the next book we see that is exactly what happened. The boy didn't die, as you suppose. He repented, and Paul is telling the church leaders to restore him lest his sorrow become unbearable.

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 20, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
When this mentions flesh, do you think it is when the body dies, or our carnal nature?

It seems you believe it is when the body dies, that person in incest with his step-mother is saved, but you are wrong. Turning someone in blatant sin over to the devil is for them to repent so they may be saved.

In the next book we see that is exactly what happened. The boy didn't die, as you suppose. He repented, and Paul is telling the church leaders to restore him lest his sorrow become unbearable.

Actually I agree. The man did repent and did live. But I do believe he would have been saved if he had died. The purpose of the death was to prevent him from sinning the sin unto death.

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 20, 2018

Thanks for the discussion.... I think I have pretty much laid it out as I understand it.
Blessings.
Dids

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Today.

And I'm saying that we all need to consider what that means instead of living on a cloud of "I'm saved" even though we deny scripture when doing so.

Saved people are new. The old sinful self dies and a new one is made of Christ. This is what scripture tells us.

Scripture speaks of us being both saints and sinners, of the old man and new man coexisting while we are alive in this mortal body.

The new man doesn't mean the old man has disappeared. This is self evident in your mortal flesh, right down to your bones.

-CryptoLutheran

thesunisout · Jun 20, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
But it wasn't lawlessness was it. Do you know the difference?

Lawlessness is a special category of sin that you have created. The scripture tells us that sin is lawlessness. We know there are unforgivable sins, like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, taking the mark of the beast, and taking out the words of the prophecy of Revelation. Both the forgivable and the unforgivable sins are lawlessness. There is no justification in the text for creating a special category of sin called lawlessness. Also, who decides which sins are "lawlessness" and which are not? The bible, not having created such a category, also has nothing to say on categorizing particular sins in this way.

1stcenturylady said:
That is one of the things I'm discussing in this post, and why 1 John 3:9 is true, not impossible as you question.

All the scripture is true but we must rightly divide the word of truth. You are seeing guillotines when the scripture is describing guardrails. 1 John is mostly giving us parameters of behavior which describe the righteous and unrighteous, but the scriptures there aren't cliff edges for believers to fall off of.

You're teaching some form of sinless perfectionism, and this is always what happens. Page after page after page of someone claiming they don't sin, which no one can verify, and which the scripture also says isn't true. It's just the same old arguments from 1 John with a different coat of paint on it. This is the sin it always leads to:

2 Timothy 2:14

Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Don't you believe this scripture? How many times have you debated these things with people? I can tell you from personal experience that this scripture is true. After one of these sinless perfectionism debates I ended up talking with someone who was about to walk away from the faith because he was so discouraged by the arguments. It took a lot of discussion and prayer to restore that brother. So be warned that this is what you are doing here.

1stcenturylady · Jun 20, 2018

Didaskalos said:
Actually I agree. The man did repent and did live. But I do believe he would have been saved if he had died. The purpose of the death was to prevent him from sinning the sin unto death.

I disagree with your last statement. You do not understand the purpose of turning one over to Satan for the destruction of the carnal nature, not their body.

From the very beginning when I saw a red flag, this twist of scripture and understanding is exactly where the Gnostics also went off the rails.

Everyone - it is false teaching. God hated this when the Nicolaitans understood scripture in this way and took it to the extreme, but this error is where it started. Don't be deceived even though modern teachers are teaching the same thing.

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