OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

EmSw · Jun 19, 2018

amariselle said:
Nope, I didn’t. Scripture is clear. The standard for salvation is 100% perfection. You know this. If it wasn’t, Christ need not have gone to the cross, because Israel (and all the rest of us) could have simply saved ourselves by just “doing our best.”

Where does the Bible say the standard for salvation is 100% perfection? You keep adding and adding. Israel knew absolutely nothing about Jesus' cross; are you saying none of them were saved? You need to read and believe what the OT says about how they received life.

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
Here's your problem, just. Any way you slice it, without works of charity a man is not saved. You can say 'as a result of faith', or 'based upon faith', 'faith will produce works', or however you like to word it. Without works of charity a man is not saved.

What I am trying to point out is that without faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us, a man is not saved. No amount of good works will save you if you don't have that.

EmSw · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
What I am trying to point out is that without faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us, a man is not saved. No amount of good works will save you if you don't have that.

I've never said faith wasn't needed. It's faith and works of charity, which are included in Jesus' commandments.

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
Matthew 5:48 is not about keeping His commandments and you know it. It is about a person being perfect by doing good to his enemy, just as God does good things to the evil.

If you want to make up a story that it is talking about keeping His commandments perfectly, then I'll play along. You have to believe perfectly and have perfect faith to be saved. Since you don't believe perfectly all the time, you can't be saved by your imperfect faith.

Oh, and you must have the perfect interpretation of all the Bible, and pray perfectly, and worship perfectly, and say everything perfectly, and find the perfect church to attend, or else it's the lake of fire for you.

Remember, you are the one who referred to Matthew 5:48. So, if you aren't perfect, justbyfaith, you are doomed. It's the end for you; there is no hope unless you are perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.

Don't you like that? Is that what you mean, when you say keep His commandments perfectly? Don't you actually mean do all things, say all things, and think all things perfectly? So, have you been perfect today? yesterday? how about tomorrow, think you will be perfect?

Do you keep Jesus' commandment to love your enemies perfectly? It is one of the commandments; and it is easy for me to keep because I have the Holy Ghost: but I happen to know that for those who don't have the Holy Ghost, it is the hardest commandment to keep.

I don't think I need perfect faith in order to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. All I need to do is to put my faith in the blood of the Lamb. It is the object of my faith that saves me. My faith only need be the size of a mustard seed.

Because His blood is perfect, sinless blood; and by putting my faith in it I appropriate the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ to my life.

So then, I am not doomed: because my faith is in the blood. You, however, are putting your trust in your works, and therefore God requires of you perfection according to your own righteousness and strength.

I, on the other hand, have Jesus' perfection applied to me through the substitutionary atonement.

Jealous yet? (see Romans 11:11, Romans 11:14).

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
I've never said faith wasn't needed. It's faith and works of charity, which are included in Jesus' commandments.

No, @EmSw.

You have denied the substitutionary atonement.

If you want to acknowledge that (the substitutionary atonement) now, then I will consider you to be one step closer to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
Oh yes, I've done evil. And no, that verse does not condemn me.

Perhaps you do not know that those who have done evil means those who practice evil. Practicing evil is continually doing it. The New Testament is filled with passages stating the consequence of evil is damnation. Some believe this, but then again, some don't.

You cannot know for sure that Jesus isn't speaking of any evil you may have done in the verse in question. I suggest you consider what I have written in post #764.

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
Listen, you added that we must keep His commandments perfectly. You added perfectly and you know it.

I suggest you read and re-read the following scriptures, until you come to understand their meaning for you:

Galatians 3:10-14, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48.

And by all means, consider the context also.

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
Do you cheat on your wife? Is this what Jesus said to do? Do you lie to your wife? Why do you have problems keeping His commandments? Do you steal from your wife? Do you hate your wife? What kind of believer lives this way? That is insanity. Do you have problems with any of these?

What kind of questions are these? You have insulted @Major1. And you owe him an apology.

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
What I am trying to point out is that without faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us, a man is not saved. No amount of good works will save you if you don't have that.

I want to correct what I said previously: No amount of good works will save you, period. Even if you have a living and saving faith, it is not your works that save you, but your faith apart from works (Romans 4:5-8).

Romans 4:5-6 says, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
Where does the Bible say the standard for salvation is 100% perfection? You keep adding and adding. Israel knew absolutely nothing about Jesus' cross; are you saying none of them were saved? You need to read and believe what the OT says about how they received life.

New Testament doctrine on this is that those righteous who died before the Cross went to Abraham's bosom to wait for Jesus to descend into hell and lead them out of Abraham's bosom to their eternal home in heaven. He led captivity captive; and gave gifts to men. He descended and preached the gospel to them who were in Abraham's bosom; and those who believed He brought with Him when He resurrected and ascended.

justbyfaith · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
Since you don't believe what Jesus said, I can see why John 5:28, 29 would be a thorn in your side. Are you one of those who does not know what 'to do good' means?

And, which of Jesus commandments is impossible for you? Or, are there two or three? Jesus never said they were impossible to keep. Again, you made this up.

However, consider what the apostles said in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-11, esp. verse 10.

amariselle · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
I haven't added one word to these words of Jesus.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

It's just some people don't believe what He said.

I’ve addressed this with you in prior posts. We cannot form an entire doctrine on one verse.

amariselle · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
What kind of questions are these? You have insulted @Major1. And you owe him an apology.

I agree. Time and time again I have discovered that those who will tell others they must keep the commandments to be saved show by their own conduct toward brothers and sisters in Christ that they are not doing so themselves.

amariselle · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
Where does the Bible say the standard for salvation is 100% perfection? You keep adding and adding. Israel knew absolutely nothing about Jesus' cross; are you saying none of them were saved? You need to read and believe what the OT says about how they received life.

Scripture is clear, Israel did know of God’s promise of salvation and their coming Messiah. Jesus Himself confirmed this when He told the religious leaders that the Scriptures point to Him.

Everyone who has been or will ever be saved is saved the same way. There is no other Name.

EmSw · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
No, @EmSw.

You have denied the substitutionary atonement.

If you want to acknowledge that (the substitutionary atonement) now, then I will consider you to be one step closer to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Well, well, well, again, you have added something which Jesus did not tell us. Where do you find Jesus speaking about substitutionary atonement?

EmSw · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
You cannot know for sure that Jesus isn't speaking of any evil you may have done in the verse in question. I suggest you consider what I have written in post #764.

If I kept practicing evil, you have a point. But your point is a big blank.

EmSw · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I suggest you read and re-read the following scriptures, until you come to understand their meaning for you:

Galatians 3:10-14, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48.

And by all means, consider the context also.

Okay, I did read them. Where does it say we need to keep His commandments perfectly? If you want to start your own doctrine, go get yourself 12 disciples and teach them your ways.

EmSw · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
What kind of questions are these? You have insulted @Major1. And you owe him an apology.

How did I insult him? Is he guilty of these? I didn't say he did these things. I was pointing out how insane it is for believers to deny keeping His commandments to enter life.

EmSw · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I want to correct what I said previously: No amount of good works will save you, period. Even if you have a living and saving faith, it is not your works that save you, but your faith apart from works (Romans 4:5-8).

Romans 4:5-6 says, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

Here again, you flat out deny Jesus' own words. Faith alone salvation can't keep from denying Jesus' words.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

EmSw · Jun 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
New Testament doctrine on this is that those righteous who died before the Cross went to Abraham's bosom to wait for Jesus to descend into hell and lead them out of Abraham's bosom to their eternal home in heaven. He led captivity captive; and gave gifts to men. He descended and preached the gospel to them who were in Abraham's bosom; and those who believed He brought with Him when He resurrected and ascended.

You must be talking about this verse -

Psalm 68:18
You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men...

I think it says He received gifts, not gave gifts.

You mean He lead captives captive? To where did He lead them?

Now show me the Old Testament doctrine about receiving life from Old Testament passages.

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

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