Obama’s Immigration Agencies Separated Children From Their Families, Too

Halbhh · Jun 19, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
I guess you missed this in the link, just like others:

Single Mexican fathers or men who traveled without an adult female companion while attempting to cross the U.S.-Mexico border with children, when subject to ATEP, had their children separated from them. Unaccompanied minors would then be placed into the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement. Such custody is supposed to be temporary and ORR is supposed to release children to an identified family member or sponsor.

The Arizona-based group No More Deaths, along with various other human rights organizations, refers to ATEP as “a form of cruel and unusual punishment” and a fact sheet released by the group noted, “Very often, families are separated and sent to cities far away from each other. They are never told where to find their loved ones, and humanitarian organizations often have to go through the Mexican Consulate to get information about family members.”

We don't want to be so selective to highlight a political point as you are selecting out -- the rare instance of pre-Trump an illegal immigrant father traveling alone with children without the mother (very rare) -- and ignore the elephant in the room, all the rest of the information in the article. Right?

The article says in the past, under Obama, the mother could remain with the children, and of course they would.

The elephant in the room is that now, unlike the past as described in the article when the mother remained with the children -- today that has ended, and now the mother is separated from the children by force.

This actually matters, because when both parents are removed by force, then the children are actually separated from their parents, as the title tried to paint onto the past, contradicting the information inside the article you linked. Don't be selective in reading and then simultaneously accuse others of being selective.

Clint Edwards · Jun 19, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
https://lawandcrime.com/immigration...separated-children-from-their-families-too-2/

Now, let's hear the outrage.

No, you won't hear it. You won't hear outrage over Americans being arrested for a crime and separated from their families either, nor will you hear outrage at the parents dragging their children across completely across from north to south one of the most dangerous countries on earth knowing that if they cross the border illegally they will be separated from their children. nor will you hear outrage over the lies told about "cages". They are spacious rooms that have chain link walls instead of solid ones.

It is all selective range, ginned up for one purpose, democrat open border votes. The democrats have no interest in getting illegal immigration under control. No matter what issue they whine about, it if it is offered to them ads a carrot, they find another excuse. They will never allow such a vote getting machine to be shut down, never

Cosmic Charlie · Jun 19, 2018

Colan Kelmbacker is a lying sack of pig excrement

Trump’s separation of immigrant families wasn't Obama policy

tulc · Jun 19, 2018

Clint Edwards said:
(snip) nor will you hear outrage over the lies told about "cages". They are spacious rooms that have chain link walls instead of solid ones. (snip)

hmmm:

room said:
A room is any distinguishable space within a structure. Usually, a room is separated from other spaces or passageways by interior walls and windows moreover, it is separated from outdoor areas by an exterior wall, sometimes with a door.

and:

cage said:
A cage is an enclosure often made of mesh, bars or wires, used to confine, contain or protect something or someone. A cage can serve many purposes, including keeping an animal in captivity, capturing, and being used for display of an animal at a zoo.[1]

Just so you know, at some point? Fox news/Republican/conservative talking points tend to collapse when they run into actual facts. :wave:

tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

Clint Edwards · Jun 19, 2018

tulc said:
hmmm:

and:

Just so you know, at some point? Fox news/Republican/conservative talking points tend to collapse when they run into actual facts.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

Really, so a room of significant size, with a door, a passageway outside the door, with windows in the external walls, is a cage because it's perimeter is defined by chain link, instead of wood, or brick etc. Got it. That really makes a whale of practical difference. Now, when I tell a random person that I know a guy who works for a warehousing company who has been forced to work in a cage for years, what will they think I wonder ? Children in cages makes such a delightful political picture, it shouldn't be spoiled by qualifications.

Sine Nomine · Jun 19, 2018

First, there is a problem of false equivalency—does the OP point to the same decision with the same magnitude and consequences or something else?

Second, one story is not “evidence”. A story from prior to May 2018 might be better support, otherwise it’s likely propaganda or selective storytelling.

Third, separating children from both parents is cruel punishment for the child and thus a UN human rights violation, except where the child’s safety is a concern (eg child abuse, neglect, etc)

Fourth, disallowing asylum applications (which is precisely what the Trump administration) is also a UN human rights violation. Because the family is being viewed as having entered illegally, they are be detained pending deportation—this is where the administration feels justified in separating the children. Asylum seekers wouldn’t be detained while their application is being considered.

Fifth, the equating of how children were treated by previous administration with this new policy/application of policy, shows the complete moral decrepitude of Trump, the DOJ, the DHS, and by extension those who agree with their position.

What is happening now is also unAmerican and non-Christian.

JohnRabbit · Jun 19, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
https://lawandcrime.com/immigration...separated-children-from-their-families-too-2/

Now, let's hear the outrage.

so two "wrongs "make a "right"? :scratch:

tulc · Jun 19, 2018

Clint Edwards said:
Really, so a room of significant size, with a door, a passageway outside the door, with windows in the external walls, is a cage because it's perimeter is defined by chain link, instead of wood, or brick etc. Got it.

Oh, you're welcome. Glad I could help clear that up.

That really makes a whale of practical difference.

Yes, it actually does.

Now, when I tell a random person that I know a guy who works for a warehousing company who has been forced to work in a cage for years, what will they think I wonder ?

They'll think he works in a place that has chain link walls around it. :wave:

Children in cages makes such a delightful political picture, it shouldn't be spoiled by qualifications.

hmmm I'm reminded of a quote from Stephen Colbert:

"One thing I know for sure: no one on the right side of history has ever had to nitpick what the definition of “cage” is."

and that is what President Trump and his supporters have been brought to. :sigh:

tulc(is going to go in search of more coffee)

Clint Edwards · Jun 19, 2018

tulc said:
Oh, you're welcome. Glad I could help clear that up.

Yes, it actually does.

They'll think he works in a place that has chain link walls around it.

hmmm I'm reminded of a quote from Stephen Colbert:

and that is what President Trump and his supporters have been brought to.
tulc(is going to go in search of more coffee)

First, I am not a Trump supporter, I was a very early member of the #nevertrump movement. Second, when rigid definitions are used to promote a sterotype, i.e. cages are what criminals and animals are put in, then I will challenge the stereotype, third, quotations from pee wee herman are of infinitely more value than any from the grinning fence post you quoted, and I don't know any from pee wee and less from the fence post.

Steve Petersen · Jun 19, 2018

Cosmic Charlie said:
Colan Kelmbacker is a lying sack of pig excrement

Trump’s separation of immigrant families wasn't Obama policy

Funny how fast personal insult flies from Trumps opponents. Just yesterday one of them called me a p.o.s. because I posted a link to this story.

Clint Edwards · Jun 19, 2018

Sine Nomine said:
First, there is a problem of false equivalency—does the OP point to the same decision with the same magnitude and consequences or something else?

Second, one story is not “evidence”. A story from prior to May 2018 might be better support, otherwise it’s likely propaganda or selective storytelling.

Third, separating children from both parents is cruel punishment for the child and thus a UN human rights violation, except where the child’s safety is a concern (eg child abuse, neglect, etc)

Fourth, disallowing asylum applications (which is precisely what the Trump administration) is also a UN human rights violation. Because the family is being viewed as having entered illegally, they are be detained pending deportation—this is where the administration feels justified in separating the children. Asylum seekers wouldn’t be detained while their application is being considered.

Fifth, the equating of how children were treated by previous administration with this new policy/application of policy, shows the complete moral decrepitude of Trump, the DOJ, the DHS, and by extension those who agree with their position.

What is happening now is also unAmerican and non-Christian.

They are not "viewed" as crossing the border illegally, THEY CROSSED THE BORDER ILLEGALLY. The ONLY legal place to cross is at a specifically designated crossing point. The international accepted norm for asylum is to apply at an embassy or consulate outside the country, and if asylum is granted, the seeker may enter the country legally. They may apply at designated crossing points, why do you think they don't ?

No asylum applications are being denied, illegal border crossers are being held for breaking the law until their asylum request is adjudicated. If they are among the 80% of those whose request is denied , they are supplied transport to their home country forthwith.

It is standard practice to separate children from those who have committed a crime.

No, the moral decrepitude is with you. What you REALLY want is for illegal aliens to cross the border, get caught, fill out a sham asylum request and be released never to be seen again. Don't play the un Christian card, I suggest you read the first half of the 13th Chapter of Romans before you decide who is or isn't " un Christian". However, it doesn't matter because that isn't the standard, the LAW is the standard. 75% of the American people who want illegal entry into the country stopped cold, is the standard.

Playing on sympathy or anything else is what you, and the illegals do to get their way. The ultimate goal, crack the golden egg of taxpayer funded service people like you have ensured they receive, along with unfettered access to the country.

If separating them from their children till their case is resolved, and providing their children safe housing, and food, and recreation for that time ( something their parents didn't do in dragging them across mexico) deters more from coming and playing on your heartstrings, so be it.

SilverBear · Jun 19, 2018

Clint Edwards said:
They are not "viewed" as crossing the border illegally, THEY CROSSED THE BORDER ILLEGALLY. The ONLY legal place to cross is at a specifically designated crossing point. The international accepted norm for asylum is to apply at an embassy or consulate outside the country, and if asylum is granted, the seeker may enter the country legally. They may apply at designated crossing points, why do you think they don't ?

No asylum applications are being denied, illegal border crossers are being held for breaking the law until their asylum request is adjudicated. If they are among the 80% of those whose request is denied , they are supplied transport to their home country forthwith.

It is standard practice to separate children from those who have committed a crime.

illegal border crossing is a misdemeanor, its on the same level as a speeding ticket.

SilverBear · Jun 19, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
https://lawandcrime.com/immigration...separated-children-from-their-families-too-2/

Now, let's hear the outrage.

from your own link: "To be clear: the Obama administration’s use of ATEP was not intended to break-up families–that was an occasionally expected side effect–while Trump’s recently-confirmed policy is expressly directed toward that end in the name of “deterrence.”

Clint Edwards · Jun 19, 2018

SilverBear said:
illegal border crossing is a misdemeanor, its on the same level as a speeding ticket.

Yes, it is a misdemeanor unless you repeat offend, but what is your point ? Depending upon the misdemeanor, and the elements of the particular offense, you can spend up to a year in jail for misdemeanor. Just like felonies, there are different crimes, with different elements, with different punishments. The law for illegal border crossing is that the illegal is to be detained, then after adjudication, either be released or deported.

tulc · Jun 19, 2018

Clint Edwards said:
First, I am not a Trump supporter,

Sorry, I assumed since you didn't seem to have a problem putting traumatized kids in cages you were, my mistake, I apologize.

I was a very early member of the #nevertrump movement.

ok.

Second, when rigid definitions are used to promote a sterotype, i.e. cages are what criminals and animals are put in, then I will challenge the stereotype,

uhmmm...would you define the thing that holds animals and criminals as a cage? If so could you point out the difference between that and a "room" with chain link walls that is locked so as to keep the occupants from freely leaving? thanks.

third, quotations from pee wee herman are of infinitely more value than any from the grinning fence post you quoted,

That's fine. I might point out that, simply because you dismiss what was said? that doesn't in any way change the fact that he's right. As the conversation we're having is actual proof of that.

and I don't know any from pee wee and less from the fence post.

Well now you know one and here's another one to add to your collection:

"Reality has a well known liberal bias" -Stephen Colbert

tulc(can provide more as needed)

Daniel Martinovich · Jun 19, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
https://lawandcrime.com/immigration...separated-children-from-their-families-too-2/

Now, let's hear the outrage.

This is all manufactured outrage. I predict it will blow up in the left's faces like everything else they are doing lately. The simple fact of the matter is crossing the border illegally is a crime. Parents get thrown in jail kids get separated because it is illegal in the USA to put them in jail with their parents. If asylum seekers cross the border illegally same thing. On the other hand asylum seekers properly showing up at a point of entry seeking asylum are not getting thrown into jail nor separated from their children. Apparently at some piont late in Obama's administration he choose to not throw parents in jail but just let them go. In other words chose not to enforce the law.

Two options. Get rid of the law, making it not a criminal offense to cross the border thereby imposing open borders on the USA. Or pass a bill authorizing and fully funding a real wall plus the building six giant federal faculties. Two in TX, one each in AZ and NM and two in CA. Each faculty will have giant intake facility and on the other side a giant prison. Each will have an airstrip and one or two 727's. Once this is all built the next faze of the bill would be to decriminalize fist time illegal border crossings. People and families caught would immediately be processed in the intake facility. Fingerprints, DNA, family history, nearest of kin, background checks. etc etc. Asylum seekers would be held until court dates. once illegal crossers wer proicessed they would be immediately deported, flown, to their country of origin. All would be thoroughly educated that the next time they are caught illegally crossing the border. With kids or without it would be a criminal offense carry a 1 year mandatory prison sentence next door at the horrid looking windowless concrete structures. Kids would be held in in a juvenile section of the same prison if next of kin in their country of origin would not take them. Next infraction 2 years, next 3.

The prison would also house convicts convicted in state courts. No more deporting prisoners only to have them re- cross to prey on Americans. They must serve their sentences. The federal government should also be paying the cost of convicted felons to serve their sentences in state prisons.

This would be called doing something about the problem. EVERYTHING ELSE IS FAKE.

tulc · Jun 19, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
This is all manufactured outrage. I predict it will blow up in the left's faces like everything else they are doing lately. The simple fact of the matter is crossing the border illegally is a crime. Parents get thrown in jail kids get separated because it is illegal in the USA to put them in jail with their parents. If asylum seekers cross the border illegally same thing. On the other hand asylum seekers properly showing up at a point of entry seeking asylum are not getting thrown into jail nor separated from their children. Apparently at some piont late in Obama's administration he choose to not throw parents in jail but just let them go. In other words chose not to enforce the law.

Two options. Get rid of the law, making it not a criminal offense to cross the border thereby imposing open borders on the USA. Or pass a bill authorizing and fully funding a real wall plus the building six giant federal faculties. Two in TX, one each in AZ and NM and two in CA. Each faculty will have giant intake facility and on the other side a giant prison. Each will have an airstrip and one or two 727's. Once this is all built the next faze of the bill would be to decriminalize fist time illegal border crossings. People and families caught would immediately be processed in the intake facility. Fingerprints, DNA, family history, nearest of kin, background checks. etc etc. Asylum seekers would be held until court dates. once illegal crossers wer proicessed they would be immediately deported, flown, to their country of origin. All would be thoroughly educated that the next time they are caught illegally crossing the border. With kids or without it would be a criminal offense carry a 1 year mandatory prison sentence next door at the horrid looking windowless concrete structures. Kids would be held in in a juvenile section of the same prison if next of kin in their country of origin would not take them. Next infraction 2 years, next 3.

The prison would also house convicts convicted in state courts. No more deporting prisoners only to have them re- cross to prey on Americans. They must serve their sentences. The federal government should also be paying the cost of convicted felons to serve their sentences in state prisons.

This would be called doing something about the problem. EVERYTHING ELSE IS FAKE.

...can't afford to school kids, infrastructure or health care but, man, when it comes to huge walls, giant prisons, air ports, air planes and a staggeringly big bureaucracy to run them and that money is all there? :scratch:

tulc(was pretty sure something like this was going to be proposed eventually) :sigh:

Daniel Martinovich · Jun 19, 2018

tulc said:
...can't afford to school kids, infrastructure or health care but, man, when it comes to huge walls, giant prisons, air ports, air planes and a staggeringly big bureaucracy to run them and that money is all there?
tulc(was pretty sure something like this was going to be proposed eventually)

Can't afford any of that because "democratic" socialism is unsustainable. Needs massive population growth and even more massive economic growth by people ingrained with the protestant work ethic to sustain itself; and that is not going to happen. That is one of the dirty secrets behind stupid lawmakers wanting mass migration. Problem is those migrating do not have the same history and will simply create in the USA what they are fleeing. Border security by its very nature is the job of the federal government. Health care and education and a host of other social welfare schemes are not.

tulc · Jun 20, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Can't afford any of that because "democratic" socialism is unsustainable. Needs massive population growth and even more massive economic growth by people ingrained with the protestant work ethic to sustain itself; and that is not going to happen. That is one of the dirty secrets behind stupid lawmakers wanting mass migration. Problem is those migrating do not have the same history and will simply create in the USA what they are fleeing. Border security by its very nature is the job of the federal government. Health care and education and a host of other social welfare schemes are not.

Nice! You managed to ignore the fact that there's no way to pay for what would appear to be a massive government expansion all while decrying "socialism has never worked!". That was pretty adorable. :wave:

tulc(particularly liked the shout-out to "protestant work ethic"!)

SilverBear · Jun 20, 2018

Clint Edwards said:
Yes, it is a misdemeanor unless you repeat offend, but what is your point ?

how would you respond to loosing your children because you got a parking ticket?

Obama’s Immigration Agencies Separated Children From Their Families, Too

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