Justification by Faith Defended!

Apologetic_Warrior said:

I don't care for most vegetables and fruits. Actually prefer vitamins.


How many Christians do you suppose, make revisions as they grow as a Christian? I don't know, but think the number would be staggering, just based on readings on internet forums alone.

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Let's say I don't trust the ones that change continually.
Which Augustine is to be believed?
The young one?
The middle aged one?
The old one?

And, I find it interesting that you like Augustine.
What about the REAL early church fathers?
Do you agree with them?
Probably not... since they didn't believe in eternal security.
Or predestination in the way some understand it.

Seriously, anyone can make bare assertions ad infintum. Take Augustine out of Catholocism, and you unwittingly destroy a central pillar of Catholocism. But this is what Palagians and semi-Palagians would do. Rather than address the arguments, destroy the messenger and hope the arguments will go away, it's a desperate poison the well tactic.

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Actually, catholicism didn't kill the messenger. They LOVE Augustine.

Prove it, prove he "brought his gnosticism with him".

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Sure. You can't look it up yourself. Prof. Google knows everything...

This is the man you admire:

Augustine, the former gnostic, and his many heretical views
Apr3




Augustine, a former gnostic, lived between 354 and 430 AD, and introduced the following heretical views into church and made them popular

1. Absolute predestination (God decides who will be saved/doomed)
2. Impossibility of falling away or apostasy (Eternal Security)
3. Man has no free will (monergism)
4. One cannot know if he/she is saved (since also those who are carnal minded might be saved)
5. God commands impossibilities (God requesting man to stop sinning which he cannot do)
6. The supreme authority of the Roman church
7. Purgatory
8. Prayers for the dead
9. The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults
10. Sex is sinful also within a marriage because depravity is inherited (hence the rise of monasteries)
11. Mary never committed sin, and we do well to worship her/pray to/through her
12. The gifts of healing, prophecy and tongues have ceased
13. Apocrypha is included in the Scriptures
14. Eucharist is necessary for salvation
15. Giving people the official ”saint” title

Unlike Pelagius, Augustine didn’t understand much Greek. The historian Neander observed that Augustine’s teaching”contains the germ of the whole system of spiritual despotism, intolerance, and persecution, even to the court of the Inquisition”. He instigated bitter persecutions against the Bible-believing Donatists who were striving to maintain pure churches after the apostolic faith.

Augustine interpreted Bible prophecy allegorically; among other things teaching that the Catholic Church is the kingdom of God.

Augustine was one of the fathers of the heresy of infant baptism, claiming that unbaptized infants were lost, and calling all who rejected infant baptism ”infidels” and ”cursed”.

Augustine exalted church tradition above the Bible and said,”I should not believe the gospel unless I were moved to do so by the authority of the Catholic Church”.

He was among the first who taught a-millennialism and that the nephilim were descendents of Cain instead of (as the Bible says) a mixture of angels and female human beings.

Augustine said:

“By Adam’s transgression, the freedom of’ the human will has been completely lost.”

“By the greatness of the first sin, we have lost the freewill to love God.”

“By subverting the rectitude in which he was created, he is followed with the punishment of not being able to do right” and “the freedom to abstain from sin has been lost as a punishment of sin.”

According to Wikipedia we can learn:

He was contemporary with Jerome and Ambrosius. In his early years he was heavily influenced by Manichaeism and afterward by the Neo-Platonism. Although he later abandoned Neoplatonism some ideas are still visible in his early writings. After his conversion to Christianity, Augustine developed his own approach to philosophy and theology, accommodating a variety of methods and different perspectives. He believed that the grace of Christ was indispensable to human freedom, and he framed the concepts of original sin and just war.

When the Western Roman Empire was starting to disintegrate, Augustine developed the concept of the Catholic Church as a spiritual City of God (in a book with the same name). The Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion view him as an pre-eminent Doctor of the Church, and the patron of the Augustinian religious order. Many Protestants, especially Calvinists, consider him to be one of the theological fathers of Reformation. Much of Augustine’s later life was recorded by his friend Possidius, bishop of Calama (present-day Guelma, Algeria), in his Sancti Augustini Vita. Possidius admired Augustine as a man of powerful intellect and a stirring orator who took every opportunity to defend Christianity against its detractors. Reformed theologians such as Martin Luther and John Calvin would look back to him as their inspiration.

Compared with Augustine, Pelagius was way more consistent with the Bible and shared the same Bible interpretation as the church fathers before him. (Read more about him in another blog post in the same Category.)

source: Augustine, the former gnostic, and his many heretical views

AND

Beyond Augustine is a church history and theological documentary that examines the free will debate in light of the Early Church and the Gnostics.

Did Augustine corrupt the church with Manichean or Gnostic doctrine?
Is Calvinism or Reformed Theology really orthodox and historic Christianity, as Calvinists claim? Or are the Calvinists and Augustinians the spiritual descendants of the Gnostics and Manicheans?
These are the type of controversial questions Jesse Morrell examines in this documentary.

source: Did Augustine Corrupt the Church with Gnostic Doctrine?

This source also has videos. I haven't watched them BTW.

And there's much more where the above comes from:

DID AUGUSTINE TEACH GNOSTICISM - Google Search

Apologetic_Warrior said:

One simple question for you, WHOM does God not foreknow? Now it is you whom stands in the court of universal redemption. No thank you, I will stay over here where redemption is particular to the election and choices of God before the foundation of the world. Goodnight.

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God, having created everything, including time - so He necessarily must be out of time -- knows everyone and everything. He is omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent.
He is also all-good, so He surely does not send persons to hell that do not want to go there of their own free will choice!

He also knows, ahead of time, foreknows, everyone who will in all time come to believe in Him. These that will He predestined to be like His Son, the first fruits of many brothers.

I'd like to see some clear scripture that states that God predestined some FOR SALVATION and not HOW they would be saved.

As you know, God decided at the beginning of time that the world would be saved by Him, through the Son, Jesus.
Genesis 3:15

And, in fact, He kept His word.
Jesus knocks at the door, WHOEVER will open to Him, He will come in and sup with them.
Revelation 3:20

God saves WHOEVER will believe, of their own free choice.
John 3:16

redleghunter said:

Verse 1 makes it abundantly clear. Read the entire chapter.

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Why do some on these forums not answer questions?
How does verse 1 make anything abundantly clear?
Would you like to clear it up for those of us who do not understand what you're getting at?

redleghunter said:

Probably you are hearing this as it is the first step in exegesis. Identify who or what the subject of the verse, passage or chapter. Even entire book.

If we search for verses to fit a specific topic without considering the context and audience, eisegesis is being employed instead of exegesis. Unless of course one presents an entire systematic model to the topical study.

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The above is very nice.
Exegesis 101.
Now how about explaining it...
Thanks.

redleghunter said:

Doesn't say saved. Remember even the demons believe.

None had a firm root. The only root which is firm is Christ and that is why the good soil produced abundantly. Remember we can do nothing without Him.

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Do the devils receive the word with JOY??
IF salvation is not what was TEMPORARY, then what was?
Can't be the kind of belief the demons have because they STILL have it.

So what was TEMPORARY?

GodsGrace101 said:

Too much work, huh?
yeah.

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For you to read it? I wouldn’t think so. It’s pretty straight forward stuff, but oh well.

redleghunter said:

You can be assured Augustine when opining on election and predestination was not leaning on his previously renounced beliefs. He was responding to heretics known as Pelagians who thought humans retained enough goodness to meet God half way in their salvation.

Augustine's theology was well accepted in the Western Church so much so they held a council to confirm his teachings refuting the Pelagians and semi Pelagians. It was the Council of Orange in 529 AD.

Good read:

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

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I read it...
It's not an ecumenical council. It was local, but I do state that Augustine did have these ideas which were NOT present in the church at this time nor at any time before him.

The problem was Pelagius, and then this semi-pelagius idea.
Man is certainly not born good. We are born with the sin nature and it rules until it is put under submission. I have a big problem with Calvinism AND Augustine....
I believe in free will which is all through the bible.
And, I cannot believe that God predestines people to hell.
Why create us if we're to be lost?
What a mean God that would be! And the bible tells us He is good. John, who was with Jesus all the time, said that God IS LOVE. How does a loving God predestine some to hell??

I have the idea that Calvin came to believe in eternal security, perseverance of the saints. How could one persevere with all the temptation and opportunity to sin? It must surely be because God maintains their salvation.

If God maintains their salvation then surely they cannot have free will any longer, because what if they want to forsake God?
So free will went. OSAS came in, this also did not exist in the early church. It was all about believing in Jesus and doing good works/deeds. IOW, living a good life.

So then, we have to be forced to accept God's grace....
I'm not sure how total depravity came about, but that is also wrong since the bible teaches that we believe first, and then we are regenerated.

And there you have it....

redleghunter said:

Unfortunately the text does not state that.

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Sure it does. Put it together will ALL of scripture...don't just pull out one verse.

Why would God create the human race if some of it He was going to predestine to hell? What kind of a God would that be? The kind YOU want to worship?

He can't be a sovereign God AND be a good God?
Is that too much for Him?

The verses we're speaking about CLEARLY STATE that God FOREKNEW who would be saved and He predestined them to be like the Son...He did NOT predestine them to salvation or to hell.

This idea completely changes the nature of God. He is pretty upset about this I would think. It's blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attributing to HIM what would be more like the work of satan.

Here's my post again for anyone interested:

As you might know, this really starts at...
Romans 8:29
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

"For whom God did FOREKNOW"

God foreknew who would be saved, He foreknew who would accept His conditions for salvation. God wants everyone to be saved -- not just some.
1 Timothy 2:4

These persons whom God foreknew would come to accept Him and be saved, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

God predestined that the saved would be made like unto the image of His Son,,,NOT that they would be saved, but HOW that salvation would look.

Jesus is the "first born" of many brethren, all those that would be born again.

Those whom God predestined to be conformed to His Son,(which He foreknew) He also called. God has been calling all men from the beginning of time. If God did not reveal Himself, how could we possibly know about Him...
Romans 1:19-20

These whom were called to be conformed to the Son, God did justify...IOW, He declared them righteous by the acceptance of Jesus as Savior.
Ephesians 1:13-14

And the justified will be glorified when they die.

ladodgers6 said:

Okay??? I'm scratching my head. So how do you make these fit together? Is it OUR Free-will choice or God's Election (Predestination)?

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It is our free will choice.
The bible is full of the word "choice". If we have a choice, it means we have free will.

God did not elect persons to be saved. Elect only means to choose.

God chose Israel to be the nation by which He would make Himself be known as the one true God. This is what He elected. The holy or chosen vessels are Israel. Please read Romans 9 to 11 again, this time keeping in mind that Paul is speaking about the Nation of Israel and the gentiles. He is putting aside His "chosen, elect" people for a while so that the gentiles might be grafted in.

Even regarding Esau and Jacob, God loved Jacob MORE, He did not hate him -- didn't Jesus say that hating is a sin? So does God sin or not do as He teaches?? And why did God love Jacob more because He FOREKNEW that Esau would sell his birthright and the chain of the seed would belong to Jacob.

Paul is explaining the story of the Hebrews in these chapters. He is NOT speaking to personal salvation (except when He's referring to the necessity of faith). Look at Romans 11:36, Paul even says AMEN as if to finish a whole discourse..and in Romans 12:1 Paul uses the word "therefore" to lead to the next idea.

1 Timothy 2:4 states that God wishes all men to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 also states that God wishes for all to come to salvation.

John 3:16 states that WHOEVER can believe in Jesus and be saved.

John 20:31 tells us that he wrote his gospel so that YOU (the audience) may believe that Jesus is the Christ and they may have life in His name. If they were predestined to salvation, why would John have had to say this? He would have alreadyt been sure that they believed it!

John 16:8 Jesus tells us that He will send the Holy Spirit to convict THE WORLD of sin, and righteousness and judgement.
And I'd like to understand how it is that Calvin taught that Jesus only died for the select few that are saved. If they're saved anyway, WHY did Jesus have to die for them? This makes no sense. It only makes sense for Jesus to die so that those who CHOOSE to follow Him will have eternal life. God wants to give US the choice to choose Him --- It's like real love. If I force someone to love me, how is that real love? Surely, God who IS LOVE, understands this!

John 12:32 Jesus says that if He is lifted up, He will draw ALL MEN to Himself.

I trust Jesus and His word, the bible...not any man, of which Calvin is one.

mark kennedy said:

Augistine went through some changes, after reading his Confessions I chalked it up to conversion. What I get from him is pretty consistant and he did not introduce original sin as doctrine, it is readily found in the writings of the early church fathers. It's also found in Romans 5 for that matter, to say nothing of Genesis 3.

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When Augustine wrote The City of God he was already converted.
He changed his mind about different things AFTER he was converted. How is one like that trusted?
He was influenced by Manacaeism and Gnosticism.
And I'd like to see where ORIGINAL SIN is spoken of in the early church....post it if you can.
Where is it in Romans 5?? And Genesis 3??

Augustine came up with the idea of ORIGINAL SIN.

Maybe you missed this...

DID AUGUSTINE TEACH GNOSTICISM - Google Search

Phil 1:21 said:

For you to read it? I wouldn’t think so. It’s pretty straight forward stuff, but oh well.

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Wow. You think I really should read the whole chapter of
2 Peter 2 so I could understand 2 Peter 2:20-22.
That's a good idea.
So you think that maybe it would change my mind about the possibility of losing our salvation just because it says we can?
Pretty straightforward huh?
But you can't explain why you don't agree with me.
OK.

redleghunter said:

Indeed. But not at the expense of the immediate context.

The audience was Gentile and the Law of Moses was not a consideration in the immediate text. To go outside the text of the context to inject something not topical is pretext.

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Come on RLG...
WHICH law of Moses?
What was Paul speaking about all through his epistles?
I'm sure you know.
State it.
Was the moral law abolished?
Were gentiles not supposed to follow this law?
What are we talking about here???

redleghunter said:

Again no, Paul says works. Paul has specifically used "The Law" and "works of the Law" elsewhere but not here. This is an assumption on your part not supported by the text.

There's a reason, he is addressing Gentiles who were never Jews or part of the Promise.

Consider the Greek or Hellanized Gentiles there. They did not live their lives as Jews. They were pagans who had a deep Greek philosophical background believing in the general virtue of mankind. That man alone is being who the gods made to live virtuous lives.

A leading philosophy of the time of Paul's ministry was Stoicism:

The Stoics thought that the good life (eudaimonia, often translated as “flourishing”) consisted in cultivating one's moral virtues in order to become a good person. The four cardinal virtuesrecognized by the Stoics were: Wisdom (sophia), Courage (andreia), Justice (dikaiosyne), and Temperance (sophrosyne).

​

A leading Stoic philosopher of this timeframe was Seneca the Younger (c. 4 BC – AD 65)

Seneca the Younger - Wikipedia

Once again, consider the audience. This is the background of beliefs of the universe and philosophy of the Gentiles Paul is addressing in Ephesians before their conversion. These people would know about virtue that people can aspire on their own to live good lives. Many did as they gave to the poor, improved social services for them and helped school them. These are the works of virtue Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 2:8.



Paul says works. Again the Gentiles he addressed were never under the Law of Moses. Your argument works for Romans 3, but not here.


Which he did by showing the Gentiles are beneficiaries through the blood of Christ. This point is true but has nothing to do with the "works" Paul said could not save them. No verse links the works with the Law of Moses.

The only allusion to the Law was the ceremonial law fulfilled by Christ (verse 15) to bring peace to all peoples and nations. If you want to get 'work' out of that you can only point to Christ's work.


Actually justification is not specifically discussed. Paul says by Grace you are saved through faith.

No mention of the Jewish law.

That is Romans not Ephesians. Why would Paul even mention the works of the Law in a post Jerusalem council Gentile audience who were never under the Law of Moses? That's why he did not other than show them in Eph 2:15 that Christ by His sacrifice He made peace for Jew and Gentile.


At verse 11 and following Paul discussed how both Jew and Gentile are made one in Christ. We agree on this but it does not undermine the definition of "works" I gave since I said "works." And as mentioned above the "works" would be understood by the Gentile audience as works they would do and not the Law of Moses.

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Works do not save anyone.
Paul was telling the gentiles the same exact thing he was telling the Jews.
What's the difference?
Works are works and they don't save.

It's not our being "good" that saves us.
There is no one good but our Father in heaven.

First we must have faith and believe in Jesus.
THEN we could be "good" and do our good deeds.

Same message to both audiences.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Whew had me worried there for a minute, I mean St. Augustine a covert Gnostic? Imagine all the implications if it were the case so early in Church history. It would appear to be the end of Church history as we know it (because the Church didn't know it), considering his Saint status and importance in Church history, and to the history of Christian doctrines taught historically.

P.S. If I could have rated both agree and winner, I would have.

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Maybe it is the end of church history as you know it?

Maybe you didn't read this. You should. Your worst worries would come true. Augustine agreed with no other early church theologian. He came up with his very own ideas.

DID AUGUSTINE TEACH GNOSTICISM - Google Search

redleghunter said:

Verse 1 makes it abundantly clear. Read the entire chapter.

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Some posters here like to tell me to read chapters.
Is the problem that you can't explain them??

And you wrote to Zoidar that you'd look up some comments from Chrysostom about eternal security. That would be nice to see since I don't know of any ECF that believe in this.

Thanks.

P.S. By ECF, I mean, of course, pre the Nicene Council.

This is all so much easier if one just lets the Bible say what it says, and if one stops looking for every reason why they are not responsible for anything.

Halbhh said:

A valuable passage. But be sure to have more translations when the wording is complex like this. Look and see what you can --

1Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.a 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”

although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5And again in this passage he said,

“They shall not enter my rest.”

6Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, Godb would not have spoken of another day later on. 9So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.


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Hebrews 4 ESV
Hebrews 4 NIV

Hebrews 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed?

In these verses, those who truly believe obey.

Those who truly believe will ardently seek to hear His Words.

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As we continue reading, In a near chapter soon enough we see faith in action, as it must be --

10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.
11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.

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The passage is not confusing. We "enter into rest" by faith in Christ. He is our Sabbath. Salvation is not something we earn by works.

112358 said:

This is all so much easier if one just lets the Bible say what it says, and if one stops looking for every reason why they are not responsible for anything.

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I have yet to read a comment from anyone here who has said they are "not responsible for anything."

112358 said:

This is all so much easier if one just lets the Bible say what it says, and if one stops looking for every reason why they are not responsible for anything.

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Has anyone on this thread said we aren’t responsible for anything? NOPE! Your assertion is just a diversion from facing the truth head on. And a cover to hide the fact that you and others on here believe your works play a role in justification. Can you say Christ’s and His merits ALONE justify apart from men’s works?

zoidar said:

When I read the Bible I often check with a few different translations, and also greek translation (studylight.org), because of alla the errors that come along. It's sad to see that the Bible often is translated in accordance to a specific theology instead of a more literal translation. As we see here in Heb 4, who could have known that disobedience was changed to unbelief ... actually it makes me quite upset, because it keeps people away from the truth, and it makes it harder to study the Bible.

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One can use the word "disobedient" if one prefers, it doesn't actually change what is being conveyed in this chapter. Obedience unto salvation is to "work the works" of God and do "the will of the Father." Jesus taught on this quite clearly in John 6:

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The "disobedient" are those who reject Christ through unbelief. This is also made clear in John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.