Gap creationism v. progressive creationism..

What took place in the gap has always been in front of us, we just refused to see it. Reading Genesis 1:1 then Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 is what transpired before Genesis 1:2.

Tolworth John said:

Is it absurd to believe Gods word?

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It is absurd to lower God's word to your own level

jerry kelso said:

openheart,

1. First of all, I believe in the gap between Genesis 1-2.
The reason being is to account for the Luciferian kingdom and his fall and rebellion.

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Hi Jerry. You think in lists, so I will organize my thoughts that ways as I feel it will be helpful to you.

1. Are you saying that God created mankind in Genesis 1, that mankind became extinct in some other story that is not told in the Bible but which I invite you to tell me about (the Luciferian kingdom), and then mankind was created a second time with Adam in Genesis 2? Or have I misunderstood you? Please feel free to address this entire point on it's on post if it gets too long, as I really hate posts that are 15 points long.

2. All truth is God's truth. That means that Scientific truth is God's truth. You cannot run away from what science discovers forever. Ultimately you are going to have to find a way to find a harmony between the evidence God has left for our minds to discover and try to understand, and the Bible, which he has also given to us to understand on many different levels.

3. BTW, Science pegs the universe at being 13 billion years old, not 380. You should learn that so that you don't appear to be ignorant. People will take you a lot more seriously when you get your facts straight. You should also be familiar with the following: according to science, the earth was formed about 4.6 billion years ago, life began on earth about 3.8 billion years ago, modern man has been around for only around 200,000 years. YOu don't have to believe it. Just be educated what science teaches. Just like you should be familiar with what the TOE is and its evidences are before you actually reject it.

Open Heart said:

Hi Jerry. You think in lists, so I will organize my thoughts that ways as I feel it will be helpful to you.

1. Are you saying that God created mankind in Genesis 1, that mankind became extinct in some other story that is not told in the Bible but which I invite you to tell me about (the Luciferian kingdom), and then mankind was created a second time with Adam in Genesis 2? Or have I misunderstood you? Please feel free to address this entire point on it's on post if it gets too long, as I really hate posts that are 15 points long.

2. All truth is God's truth. That means that Scientific truth is God's truth. You cannot run away from what science discovers forever. Ultimately you are going to have to find a way to find a harmony between the evidence God has left for our minds to discover and try to understand, and the Bible, which he has also given to us to understand on many different levels.

3. BTW, Science pegs the universe at being 13 billion years old, not 380. You should learn that so that you don't appear to be ignorant. People will take you a lot more seriously when you get your facts straight. You should also be familiar with the following: according to science, the earth was formed about 4.6 billion years ago, life began on earth about 3.8 billion years ago, modern man has been around for only around 200,000 years. YOu don't have to believe it. Just be educated what science teaches. Just like you should be familiar with what the TOE is and its evidences are before you actually reject it.

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openheart,

1. Were you not the one that said 380 billion years? It wasn’t me.
I just responded to that figure of whether or not there was a scripture to that or not.
Obviously, we know there is not concerning 380 or 13 billion. That is not to say that science is right or wrong.

2. Genesis 1:1 is the original creation for sure.
Genesis 1:2; the earth is without form and void. This is representative of Judgement to the fullest extent of the demise of life.
Noah’s flood was never said to be without form or void.
Jeremiah 4:23 says without form and void which is the same as in Genesis 1:2.

3. All truth is God’s truth depends on your context.
To say science truth is God’s truth in a blanket statement and that vernacular is an opinion and conjecture.

4. The Old Earth and New Earth argument is an exegetical battle.

5. The Luciferian Kingdom is found in Ezekiel 28:15-19.
Thee sanctuaries he defiled are translated goy or gentiles.
Some say they were the angels Lucifer corrupted.
Either way, we are not told any other history about them.
The point is Lucifer was full of pride but also had rulership probation and he failed.

6. This subject is a little complicated and long so I’ll stop for now. Your turn, Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

openheart,

1. Were you not the one that said 380 billion years? It wasn’t me.
I just responded to that figure of whether or not there was a scripture to that or not.
Obviously, we know there is not concerning 380 or 13 billion. That is not to say that science is right or wrong.

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It wasn't I that said 380 billion. I was simply remarking that the correct number is 13 billion.

2. Genesis 1:1 is the original creation for sure.
Genesis 1:2; the earth is without form and void. This is representative of Judgement to the fullest extent of the demise of life.
Noah’s flood was never said to be without form or void.
Jeremiah 4:23 says without form and void which is the same as in Genesis 1:2.

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But this doesn't answer my question, which was, Is Adam in Genesis 2 a separate creation of mankind from the mankind created on the sixth day? Because Adam was created from the dust of the earth, if you read the story literally (I don't, btw), which means he was not descended from any previous human beings.

3. All truth is God’s truth depends on your context.
To say science truth is God’s truth in a blanket statement and that vernacular is an opinion and conjecture.

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My context is simply that God created the natural world, and the natural world contains all sorts of clues about itself, including evidence about its origins. Science is merely the tool that uses observation and experimentation to uncover and piece together those clues and evidences. The thing with science is that it uses evidence only found within nature; it does not use philosophy, religion, etc.

5. The Luciferian Kingdom is found in Ezekiel 28:15-19.
Thee sanctuaries he defiled are translated goy or gentiles.
Some say they were the angels Lucifer corrupted.
Either way, we are not told any other history about them.
The point is Lucifer was full of pride but also had rulership probation and he failed.

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I don't see where Ezekiel 28:15-19 talks about Satan. It seems to be talking about an earthly King.

But as I said, I didn't ask you about it to argue with you, only to understand where you are coming from. So did this Luciferian Kingdom exist Between Genesis 1 and 2? Or have I misunderstood you?

Your turn

Open Heart said:

It wasn't I that said 380 billion. I was simply remarking that the correct number is 13 billion.

But this doesn't answer my question, which was, Is Adam in Genesis 2 a separate creation of mankind from the mankind created on the sixth day? Because Adam was created from the dust of the earth, if you read the story literally (I don't, btw), which means he was not descended from any previous human beings.

My context is simply that God created the natural world, and the natural world contains all sorts of clues about itself, including evidence about its origins. Science is merely the tool that uses observation and experimentation to uncover and piece together those clues and evidences. The thing with science is that it uses evidence only found within nature; it does not use philosophy, religion, etc.

I don't see where Ezekiel 28:15-19 talks about Satan. It seems to be talking about an earthly King.

But as I said, I didn't ask you about it to argue with you, only to understand where you are coming from. So did this Luciferian Kingdom exist Between Genesis 1 and 2? Or have I misunderstood you?

Your turn

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openheart,

1. Post #88; 3.8 billion is what you said not 380. Sorry about that.
13 billion you said was the Big Bang.
My question was merely what scripture backs up both of those figures.
Now you and I both know there is no such scripture.
Is there any evidence biblically that implies those figures.

2. God created the original Heaven and Earth out of things that were not in existence. Hebrews 11:4.
So what was a Big Bang?

3. I don’t believe in a Big Bang, but I do believe there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

4. I don’t believe we descended from pre-adamites.
Lucifer’s earth is the same physical earth as when Adam and Eve was created.

5. I understand science and I am not saying they are wrong. I just said the Bible has no scripture to back that up.

6. Ezekiel 28:15-19 is a double reference such as Matthew 16:21-23.
The earthly King Of Babylon over Tyrus Ezekiel 24:2; 28:2 was full of pride such as Lucifer.
The earthly King of Babylon, prince of Tyrus was never the anointed cherub in the holy mountain of God.
He was not perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in him.
The earthly king was born into sin.

7. I wasn’t arguing but asked an honest question about scriptural back up. I am not bothered about a difference of opinion, I am after the truth though it may take a little while sometimes for various reasons. I just ask people to be fair in exegesis.

8. The Luciferian kingdom was after the original creation in Genesis 1:1 and verse 2 was the result of judgement.
2 Peter 2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement.
Hell is in the deepest parts of this earth.
Lucifer had already sinned when he was in Adam and Eve’s Garden of Eden. There’s much more but I’ll stop here. Your turn. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

2. God created the original Heaven and Earth out of things that were not in existence. Hebrews 11:4.
So what was a Big Bang?

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Sounds like the same thing to me. The Big Bang describes the first moment when God created the universe from nothing. The formation of the earth came much, much later. Etc.

Hell is in the deepest parts of this earth.

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That is certainly not in scripture. Heaven and hell are not in the space time universe that you and I live in, but are in another realm altogether.

DarkSoul999 said:

It is absurd to lower God's word to your own level

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My level is to believe what it says.

How absurd is that?

Open Heart said:

Sounds like the same thing to me. The Big Bang describes the first moment when God created the universe from nothing. The formation of the earth came much, much later. Etc.

That is certainly not in scripture. Heaven and hell are not in the space time universe that you and I live in, but are in another realm altogether.

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openheart,

1. Scripture talks about specifically about Heaven and Earth creation not the universe as a whole.

2. Hell is beneathe the earth for Abraham’s bosom was int the vicinity though a gulf separated them. Read the story of the rich man and Lazarus which is a true story and not a parable Luke 16.
Also, in Revelation 20:10 Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been a thousand years before. At the GWTJ all sinners will be judged and those in the sea and under the sea and hell and death will be thrown into the lake of Fire forever Revelation 20:11-15. Jerry kelso

Tolworth John said:

My level is to believe what it says.

How absurd is that?

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It doesn't say any of this. It is an extremely forced interpretation.

DarkSoul999 said:

It doesn't say any of this. It is an extremely forced interpretation.

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The bible does not say that God created in 6 days! Where does it say that God did not create in 6 days?

Tolworth John said:

The bible does not say that God created in 6 days! Where does it say that God did not create in 6 days?

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I agree, it states clearly that there were 6 command days... what Genesis does not indicate or set is a time on the processes enacted by his fiat.

Tolworth John said:

The bible does not say that God created in 6 days! Where does it say that God did not create in 6 days?

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It describes six days and uses night and day to drive the narrative. It is handled very well.

God realized that if any more detail was added to the description it would create a thousand more Christians denominations all condemning each other to Hell for not getting it right. Fortunately we only have a few groups of crazy.

Jamsie said:

I agree, it states clearly that there were 6 command days... what Genesis does not indicate or set is a time on the processes enacted by his fiat.

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That there is the repetition of evening and morning the numbered day clearly indicates that these periods were of 24 hours. This is confirmed by the 10 comamdments.

DarkSoul999 said:

It describes six days and uses night and day to drive the narrative. It is handled very well.

God realized that if any more detail was added to the description it would create a thousand more Christians denominations all condemning each other to Hell for not getting it right. Fortunately we only have a few groups of crazy.

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Ever read where it says, "Did God really say"
Who said it and what happened?

What reason is there to say, 'Did God really say that?'

Tolworth John said:

That there is the repetition of evening and morning the numbered day clearly indicates that these periods were of 24 hours. This is confirmed by the 10 comamdments.

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Yep! Exodus 20:11. God bless you for your faith!

Tolworth John said:

That there is the repetition of evening and morning the numbered day clearly indicates that these periods were of 24 hours. This is confirmed by the 10 comamdments.

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Jamsie said:

The distinction is also that the fiats were mediate not immediate.

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This is true only if one is reading into the passage something that is not there, in order to make it fit a previously concieved idea.
Doing this is bad exogieses.

Tolworth John said:

This is true only if one is reading into the passage something that is not there, in order to make it fit a previously concieved idea.
Doing this is bad exogieses.

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On the other hand it is a very plain reading of Genesis, and doesn't conform to our inculcation of the past. Why deny what is written, why not approach with fresh eyes concerning the structure. As of yet the specifics have not been addressed with any worthwhile critique other than "reading into the passage"...show me exactly what is being read into.

@Jamsie
@Tolworth John

Just curious, what is your view on say Genesis 1:20-23 (ESV shown below):

"And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” 21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day."

My view is that whether or not the fiats were immediate or mediate, by the end of the day 5, the waters were swarming with living creatures and there were birds flying across the expanse of the heavens (sky).