Is the Divine Council Biblical?

Cement · Jun 17, 2018

Norbert L said:
Heiser admits his view is a minority position within Christianity. Perhaps to make a stronger statement about it is to jump from accepting a minority position to "no mainstream Hebrew scholar holds this view". Of course when that is challenged, it will be hard to show due to the evidence that the topic is actually accepted for discussion by academia in numerous mainstream Christian institutions that cater to them. Basically it will take a whole lot more to put an end this discussion for average Christians like us. We just may have to wait for the Psalmist of 82 to be resurrected and have him spill the beans!

Doesn't he make the case that ancient Hebrews and Israelite religious scholars, their traditions or early Christians have all known his position as the mainstream of the day. There are many things that contemporary mainstream scholars of today differ in from their counterparts of long ago.

συνείδησις · Jun 17, 2018

The idea of a divine council is by no means dependent on Psalm 82. It stands on its own based on other scripture.

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Daniel 10:20-21 acknowledges a "Prince of Persia" and "Prince of the Greeks" in the same breath as Archangel Michael, Prince of Israel...
There is only one God Elohim with capital first letters, but there may be / may have been numerous other godly elohim entities with lower case first letters, of a "rank" equivalent to that of an Archangel

Was Michael ever addressed or referred to as "elohim?" It appears some folks want to read their assumptions/presuppositions into the text. Hebrew doesn't have capital letters.
.....Did you read the scripture I posted above which say,

I am God, and there is none else. (Deu 4:35) Thus saith the LORD יהוה, Before me there was no God, formed, neither shall there be [no God formed]] after me. (Isa 43:10) I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isa 44:6) Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any (Isa 44:8.)

My understanding of the scripture which may seem to imply the existence of other lesser gods, does not conflict with the above scripture.

God said more than once there is not other God and I believe Him.

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2018

Dkh587 said:
Yes, they do allow for an assembly of ”gods”. The verses you post are in reference to God’s supremacy as the one true God, and his power and eternal nature. His divine sons come from him, and have a starting point. God doesn’t have a starting point.

It appears you are interjecting your own assumptions/presuppositions into the text. Where does Psalm 82 say anything about "God’s supremacy as the one true God, and his power and eternal nature?

The assembly consists of his divine sons, as stated in Psalm 82.

Didn't even read my post did you? You are certainly not addressing any of the scripture I quoted or my exposition.

The sons of God are “gods” because they come from the Most High. Just as humans and animals have offspring that are the same thing as they are, so are God’s divine sons who are a part of his counci in heaven
They’re not comparable to the Most High - they share his divine nature and are the same type of being that he is because they come from him. They are below him in terms of power.

Do you have any scripture to support this other than Psalm 82 + assumptions?

No need to tell a man “you will die like men”, because all men die, which we already know. The sons of God spoken to in Psalm 82 got sentenced to death. The sons of God are divine, like God, and would not die outside of getting sentenced to death like MEN.

Other than Psalm 82 do you have any scripture which supports your statement "The sons of God are divine, like God, and would not die outside of getting sentenced to death like MEN?" All men do not die neither Enoch nor Elijah died and those who are alive when the Lord returns will not die.
.....God did not say to the unjust judges in Psalm 82, "You are gods!" God said "I said, 'You are 'gods'." There is a difference

Commandment #1
Thou shalt have no other GODS before me

Does not support the idea that there is a divine council of gods in heaven.

Dkh587 · Jun 17, 2018

Der Alter said:
It appears you are interjecting your own assumptions/presuppositions into the text. Where does Psalm 82 say anything about "God’s supremacy as the one true God, and his power and eternal nature?

Where did I say Psalm 82 said that? Besides, Psalm 82 verifies that Elyon is supreme over his sons, along with other verses throughout the Law & Prophets.

Didn't even read my post did you? You are certainly not addressing any of the scripture I quoted or my exposition.

I did read your post, which is why I replied.

Do you have any scripture to support this other than Psalm 82 + assumptions?

Psalm 82 is sufficient. Being a son of God puts you in the classification of being what God is., as Psalm 82 states: ye are elohim, sons of Elyon. They are divine because they are the Most High’s SONS. What’s so hard for you to understand about this?

Other than Psalm 82 do you have any scripture which supports your statement "The sons of God are divine, like God, and would not die outside of getting sentenced to death like MEN?" All men do not die neither Enoch nor Elijah died and those who are alive when the Lord returns will not die.

Don’t be silly, Elijah & Enoch are the exception. Humans die, angels/sons of God/divine beings do not die, unless sentenced to death.

where your argument falls short is that it’s unnecessary and illogical to tell a mortal man, “you are elohim/god, but will die like men”

And if we really wanna get technical, the Hebrew word for mankind “adam” is used where it says MEN. the scripture literally says: YE ARE ELOHIM SONS OF ELYON BUT YE WILL DIE LIKE ADAM
. The speaker is contrasting what they are to how they will die, like mankind.

Humans die, divine beings/sons of God/angels do not die unless they are sentenced to death(Psalm 82 for example)

God did not say to the unjust judges in Psalm 82, "You

are gods!" God said "I said, 'You are 'gods'." There is a difference

There is no difference in the Hebrew. There are no quotes and emphasis in different parts of sentences. It just literally reads “I SAID YE ARE ELOHIM SONS OF ELYON”

to try to place your own emphasis is a fallacy because the Hebrew doesn’t allow for that

Does not support the idea that there is a divine council of gods in heaven

In terms of a group of the same type of divine beings with a supreme ruler over them, yes there is a council of gods supported by scripture. The Law & Prophets calls them Ha’Elohim(The Elohim), and it consists of Yahweh and his divine sons.

Dkh587 · Jun 17, 2018

συνείδησις said:
The idea of a divine council is by no means dependent on Psalm 82. It stands on its own based on other scripture.

like when Micaiah saw into the council?

1 Kings 22:19-23

And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of Yahweh: I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

And Yahweh said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?

And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Yahweh, and said, I will persuade him.

And Yahweh said unto him, Wherewith?

And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.

And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Now therefore, behold, Yahweh hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Yahweh hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2018

Dkh587 said:
Where did I say Psalm 82 said that? Besides, Psalm 82 verifies that Elyon is supreme over his sons, along with other verses throughout the Law & Prophets.
I did read your post, which is why I replied.

Psalm 82 is sufficient. Being a son of God puts you in the classification of being what God is., as Psalm 82 states: ye are elohim, sons of Elyon. They are divine because they are the Most High’s SONS. What’s so hard for you to understand about this?

Logical fallacy circular argument. You cannot prove what you consider the correct interpretation of Psalm 82 by quoting Psalm 82. You still have not acknowledged or addressed Deu 4:35, Isa 43:10, 44:6, 44:8

Don’t be silly, Elijah & Enoch are the exception. Humans die, angels/sons of God/divine beings do not die, unless sentenced to death.

Repeating a claim without scriptural support does not validate it.

where your argument falls short is that it’s unnecessary and illogical to tell a mortal man, “you are elohim/god, but will die like men”

You continue to ignore the words "I said that"? It is unnecessary and illogical for God to say "I said that you are elohim" unless He had a reason. Why did Got not simply say "You are gods" as you want it to read. God had a reason for adding the words "I said that..." but you continue to omit them. Why?

And if we really wanna get technical, the Hebrew word for mankind “adam” is used where it says MEN. the scripture literally says: YE ARE ELOHIM SONS OF ELYON BUT YE WILL DIE LIKE ADAM
. The speaker is contrasting what they are to how they will die, like mankind.

Note in this part of the phrase God says "you are sons of elyon" He does not add the words "I said that..." Why?

Humans die, divine beings/sons of God/angels do not die unless they are sentenced to death(Psalm 82 for example)

Scripture?

There is no difference in the Hebrew. There are no quotes and emphasis in different parts of sentences. It just literally reads “I SAID YE ARE ELOHIM SONS OF ELYON”

How much study have you had on Hebrew? I formally studied Hebrew at the graduate level.
Why did God add the words "I said?"

to try to place your own emphasis is a fallacy because the Hebrew doesn’t allow for that
In terms of a group of the same type of divine beings with a supreme ruler over them, yes there is a council of gods supported by scripture. The Law & Prophets calls them Ha’Elohim(The Elohim), and it consists of Yahweh and his divine sons.

The word of God says otherwise. Deu 4:35, Isa 43:10, 44:6, 44:8

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2018

Dkh587 said:
like when Micaiah saw into the council?

1 Kings 22:19-23

The term "host of heaven" occurs 19 times in the OT. It is never called or referred to as the council of God. In three verses the host of heaven is associated with sun, moon and stars. Deu 4:19, 17:3 Jer 8:2.

Dkh587 · Jun 17, 2018

Der Alter said:
You still have not acknowledged or addressed Deu 4:35, Isa 43:10, 44:6, 44:

Yahweh is the one true God. It doesn’t negate that he has divine sons in the heavens, who God even said are gods/elohim, per Psalm 82

You continue to ignore the words "I said that"? It is unnecessary and illogical for God to say "I said that you are elohim" unless He had a reason. Why did Got not simply say "You are gods" as you want it to read. God had a reason for adding the words "I said that..." but you continue to omit them. Why?

I quoted the speaker of Psalm 82 in all caps where God said “I SAID YE ARE ELOHIM SONS OF ELYON”. You may want to reread my post if you didn’t see it, because it’s there.

How much study have you had on Hebrew? I formally studied Hebrew at the graduate level.

Why did God add the words "I said?"

Because he was telling them what they were created to be but was letting them know they were going to lose it and die. In the most basic sense, it would be like a king revoking privileges to a prince after telling him he would have them forever, due to corruption.

The word of God says otherwise. Deu 4:35, Isa 43:10, 44:6, 44:8

I’ve already acknowledged those scriptures and I accept them. Yahweh is the one true God. The sons of God do not compare. They are only gods/elohim because they are his sons, not because they are the source of any kind of life

Dkh587 · Jun 17, 2018

Der Alter said:
The term "host of heaven" occurs 19 times in the OT. It is never called or referred to as the council of God. In three verses the host of heaven is associated with sun, moon and stars. Deu 4:19, 17:3 Jer 8:2.

1 Kings 22 gives us an incredible glimpse into the divine council. We see it in other scriptures like Job 1 & Job 2. It’s as plain as day to me, not sure why you’re struggling to let the scriptures say what they say?

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2018

Dkh587 said:
Yahweh is the one true God. It doesn’t negate that he has divine sons in the heavens, who God even said are gods/elohim, per Psalm 82

Repeating the same thing over and over does not prove it.

I quoted the speaker of Psalm 82 in all caps where God said “I SAID YE ARE ELOHIM SONS OF ELYON”. You may want to reread my post if you didn’t see it, because it’s there.

You also said "you are gods" omitting the words "I said that" more than once.

Because he was telling them what they were created to be but was letting them know they were going to lose it and die. In the most basic sense, it would be like a king revoking privileges to a prince after telling him he would have them forever, due to corruption.

Adding more of your opinion, God did not say they were created to be gods. At some point god said "you are gods." Dying is more than just revoking privileges.

I’ve already acknowledged those scriptures and I accept them. Yahweh is the one true God. The sons of God do not compare. They are only gods/elohim because they are his sons, not because they are the source of any kind of life

You claim that you acknowledged the scripture I posted then you interject your own opinion into what God said. God did not say that the unjust judges "do not compare."

I am God/elohim, and there is none else. (Deu 4:35)
Thus saith the LORD יהוה/YHWH, Before me there was no God/elohim, formed, neither shall there be no God/elohim formed after me. (Isa 43:10)
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God/elohim. (Isa 44:6)
Is there a God/elohim beside me? yea, there is no God/elohim; I know not any (Isa 44:8.)

How can there be other actual elohim when God said more than once there is no elohim, I know not any? Your interpretation continues to contradict these passages. But if there were no actual elohim and God only said that some were elohim, as I contend, that does not contradict the above passages.

S.O.J.I.A. · Jun 17, 2018

it's talking about the ruling bodies in government

romans 13:1-7

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2018

Dkh587 said:
1 Kings 22 gives us an incredible glimpse into the divine council. We see it in other scriptures like Job 1 & Job 2. It’s as plain as day to me, not sure why you’re struggling to let the scriptures say what they say?

None of these passages mention "council of God".
1Ki 22:20-21

(20) And the LORD said: Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead. And one said: On this manner; and another said: On that manner.

(21) And there came forth the spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said: I will entice him.
LXX Job 1:6
(6) And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them.
LXX Job 2:1
(1) And it came to pass on a certain day, that the angels of God came to stand before the
Lord, and the devil came among them to stand before the Lord

Cement · Jun 17, 2018

THE W said:
it's talking about the ruling bodies in government

romans 13:1-7

Is this why Paul talks about powers and principalities that are not of flesh and blood?

S.O.J.I.A. · Jun 17, 2018

Cement said:
Is this why Paul talks about powers and principalities that are not of flesh and blood?

is that what you're reading in romans 13:1-7?

Cement · Jun 17, 2018

Der Alter said:
Was Michael ever addressed or referred to as "elohim?" It appears some folks want to read their assumptions/presuppositions into the text. Hebrew doesn't have capital letters.
.....Did you read the scripture I posted above which say,

I am God, and there is none else. (Deu 4:35) Thus saith the LORD יהוה, Before me there was no God, formed, neither shall there be [no God formed]] after me. (Isa 43:10) I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isa 44:6) Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any (Isa 44:8.)
My understanding of the scripture which may seem to imply the existence of other lesser gods, does not conflict with the above scripture.

God said more than once there is not other God and I believe Him.

Your taking things out of context. What was the first thing that GOD did before he took the Jews out of Egypt? He showed his supremacy being the only Creator and judged the gods of Egypt accordingly. Exodus 12:12 If there were no gods of Egypt why would GOD ever need to judge them? The elohim were suppose to help the weak and judge the strong yet it seems like they didn’t do their job well so GOD in Psalm 82 is basically now going to judge them. When GOD states that before him are no gods he is correct because in his supreme Creator stature those gods are not! You need to interpret things in the context of how they are said. GOD in those passages is specifically speaking to the ancient Hebrews who just got out of bondage and are wandering in the desert. The Israelites main problem was that they went back to worshipping the old gods of Egypt and did not give the Creator the revenance that he deserves when GOD stated that he brought them out of slavery and they were to be his and no one else’s! Today we are all the LORDS portion so praise Jesus and the Jews for giving the gentiles salvation! Jesus is today the true GOD of every Nation on earth.

Edit: Heiser makes the case that the ancient application of the term “god” differs from today. When we think about God today we think of only one aspect the Creator and not some authoritive figure who yeilds power as Jesus was referring to when he said to the rulers that they were gods.

Cement · Jun 17, 2018

THE W said:
is that what you're reading in romans 13:1-7?

I’m referring to Ephesians 6:12.

S.O.J.I.A. · Jun 17, 2018

Cement said:
I’m referring to Ephesians 6:12.

satan and his demons

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2018

Cement said:
Your taking things out of context. What was the first thing that God did before he took the Jews out of Egypt? He showed his supremacy and judged the gods of Egypt accordingly. Exodus 12:12 If there were no gods of Egypt why would god ever need to judge them? The elohim were suppose to help the weak and judge the strong yet it seems like they didn’t do their job well so God in Psalm 82 is basically now going to judge them. When God states that before him are no gods he is correct because in his stature those gods are not! You need to interpret things in the context of how they are said. God in those passages is specifically speaking to the ancient Hebrews who just got out of bondage and are wandering in the desert. The Israelites main problem was that they went back to worshipping the old gods of Egypt and did not give the Creator the revenance that he deserves when God stated that he brought them out of slavery and they were to be his and no one else’s. Today we are all the Lords portion so praise Jesus and the Jews for giving the gentiles salvation!

As with virtually all heterodox you are quoting a few verses out-of-context. Here is what God said about all the so-called gods of all the nations.

Psalms 96:4-5
(4) For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
(5) For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
1 Chronicles 16:25-26
(25) For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
(26) For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
Psalms 115:1-7
(1) Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
(2) Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
(3) But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
(4) Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
(5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
(6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
(7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

Cement · Jun 17, 2018

Der Alter said:
As with virtually all heterodox you are quoting a few verses out-of-context. Here is what God said about all the so-called gods of all the nations.

Psalms 96:4-5
(4) For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
(5) For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
1 Chronicles 16:25-26
(25) For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
(26) For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
Psalms 115:1-7
(1) Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
(2) Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
(3) But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
(4) Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
(5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
(6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
(7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

When did I claim that I was heterodox? From what orthodox view do you come from? For the sake of this discussion let’s just stop using the word god when referring to those rulers on the Council.

Is the Divine Council Biblical?

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