Are Morals Relative, Progressive, Objective, Absolute, Other?

cvanwey

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You clearly aren't listening at all. Do you have no fear of God at all?

I should fear a claimed 'all loving' being? I would assume if this being is all loving and perfect love, then I would assume that asking to speak with such, for 30+ years, might yield an actual response? If God wants nothing more than to have a relationship with me, and I request a relationship for 30 years, and only find the conversation one-sided, what else am I supposed to conclude?
 
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cvanwey

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Whether it be the principles of right and wrong, which are absolute, or the applications or regulations derived from those principles, which are not necessarily absolute, there's a more fundamental issue to deal with. Namely are morals from God or do we make them up ourselves? If we make them up ourselves then we may be just pretending things are absolute when they are not. But if by God, then that's kind of the definition of "absolute".

I like this answer! So can you name an absolute moral value or duty, and prove it?
 
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Kevin Snow

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I should fear a claimed 'all loving' being? I would assume if this being is all loving and perfect love, then I would assume that asking to speak with such, for 30+ years, might yield an actual response? If God wants nothing more than to have a relationship with me, and I request a relationship for 30 years, and only find the conversation one-sided, what else am I supposed to conclude?
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. ~Hebrews 11:6

The reason you have no answer is because you have no faith. I am standing here on the other side telling you that when I asked God for an answer he has given me an answer every single time throughout my entire life.
 
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cvanwey

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And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. ~Hebrews 11:6

The reason you have no answer is because you have no faith. I am standing here on the other side telling you that when I asked God for an answer he has given me an answer every single time throughout my entire life.

Can you please provide your definition of faith?. I will gladly give you mine, in the mean time.

Faith is belief instead of evidence. Faith is belief without question. Faith is pretending to know something unknown. Faith is possibly continuing to choose to retain an original position, in spite of overwhelming opposing evidence.

If any differing religion can use faith, the same as you, is faith then reliable?

So may I ask you to pray, so He may answer you, as to why he never answers me? And if you get an answer, would you mind telling me what He says?

I seeked Him for 30+ years. I received no rewards of any kind... :(

Thank you
 
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Anguspure

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Which God?

The Creator God that is the Uncaused Cause, The I AM, The God of Abraham, Moses and the Apostles.
Furthermore, what if there's more than one?
Philosophically there is not more than one and the Patriarchs agree, Sh'ma Yisra'el, YHVH 'eloheinu, YHVH 'eḥad (Hear o' Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is One)
And once this God or these Gods are verified, how does one then discern these moral dictates are actually objective?
One would discern the moral values and duties based upon the value that God places on the objects He regards as having moral consequence.

At the outset the appreciation that He created things to exist (as for any person who creates something) would indicate a value attached to that thing.
 
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Inkfingers

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You have yet to begin to demonstrate which God(s) is/are driving this moral foundation?

Why would I bother doing that with someone who is so intellectually dishonest as to deny that there is an absolute morality but lives as if there is one?

What I find dishonest is the ad hominem attack.

It's not ad hominem. It's pointing out why it is pointless trying to explain something rationally to someone who is in denial about what they themselves believe.

Reason requires honesty, but you are claiming to believe that there is no absolute authority and yet are living as if there is one. Your words and actions do not match. And if you cannot see that, it is pointless trying to explain to you the rational argument for believing that God exists.
 
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cvanwey

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The Creator God that is the Uncaused Cause, The I AM, The God of Abraham, Moses and the Apostles.

Providing the Kalam Cosmological argument does not get one to Yahweh regardless.

Quoting verses from the Bible to prove that the Bible is true is no better/worse than a Hindu quoting verses from the Bhagavata to prove the Bhagavata.


One would discern the moral values and duties based upon the value that God places on the objects He regards as having moral consequence.

I would like a sufficient answer, which does not attempt to prove loose deism (Kalam) or circular reasoning (Bible), as to which God's moral dictates are the correct ones?
 
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Kevin Snow

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Can you please provide your definition of faith?. I will gladly give you mine, in the mean time.

Faith is belief instead of evidence. Faith is belief without question. Faith is pretending to know something unknown. Faith is possibly continuing to choose to retain an original position, in spite of overwhelming opposing evidence.

If any differing religion can use faith, the same as you, is faith then reliable?

So may I ask you to pray, so He may answer you, as to why he never answers me? And if you get an answer, would you mind telling me what He says?

I seeked Him for 30+ years. I received no rewards of any kind... :(

Thank you
No, you miss the point entirely. Faith is what I have and is what you don't have. Cry to God that he might help you with your unbelief!
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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1. judging actions on whether they are right or wrong

2. depends on your world view, if no creator God, then there is no morality, just personal opinions.
if God exists, then the God who created existence and owns existence defines existence, which includes morality.
 
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cvanwey

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Why would I bother doing that with someone who is so intellectually dishonest as to deny that there is an absolute morality but lives as if there is one?


No, I fully admitted that morals are NOT absolute without some existing absolute moral authority. I could not be more honest! Now all I'm actually asking from YOU, is which one, if any, actually exists???

Otherwise, it's just my subjective assertions, verses yours :)


It's not ad hominem. It's pointing out why it is pointless trying to explain something rationally to someone who is in denial about what they themselves believe.

Beg to differ. How do you know I'm an atheist? I never told you I was? How do you know I'm not a deist, pantheist, seeker, skeptic, agnostic, or anything else?.?.?.? So what is it that you assert that I believe? I'm telling you what I believe, or am starting to lack there-of. Meaning, I need evidence of the actual moral arbiter. Until then, I remain undecided. Hence, ask for evidence on this forum, which I have been unable to obtain on my own. Until you can demonstrate which God is driving these conclusions, I'm asking you to prove that your believed authority is the one whom is actually driving it. Can you do that, in a way which does not violate fallacious reasoning? Because I sure can't...

Reason requires honesty, but you are claiming to believe that there is no absolute authority and yet are living as if there is one. Your words and actions do not match. And if you cannot see that, it is pointless trying to explain to you the rational argument for believing that God exists.

Please read the response above. I will accept that absolute morals exist, as soon as you demonstrate WHICH moral arbiter exists. You do understand that differing claimed moral arbiters exist, right?
 
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cvanwey

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No, you miss the point entirely. Faith is what I have and is what you don't have. Cry to God that he might help you with your unbelief!

How might I know that God is talking to them, verses my their brain responding to itself? When people of other religions pray, they claim to also receive answers from their differing God(s). Is it just coinsidence that they are all mistaken, but the Christians are not?
 
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bcbsr

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I like this answer! So can you name an absolute moral value or duty, and prove it?
A "Do", would be for example to love your neighbor as yourself.
A "Don't" would for for example do not murder.
As for proof, depends on what you consider "proof". For me Jesus Christ was validated by his miracles and his resurrection from the dead and he affirms these principles. Proof enough for me.
 
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cvanwey

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1. judging actions on whether they are right or wrong

2. depends on your world view, if no creator God, then there is no morality, just personal opinions.
if God exists, then the God who created existence and owns existence defines existence, which includes morality.

I agree. So please demonstrate (which) moral absolute arbiter exists without appealing to fallacious reasoning. Because I sure am not able to do it.
 
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Inkfingers

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No, I fully admitted that morals are NOT absolute without some existing absolute moral authority. I could not be more honest! Now all I'm actually asking from YOU, is which one, if any, actually exists???

Otherwise, it's just my subjective assertions, verses yours :)




Beg to differ. How do you know I'm an atheist? I never told you I was? How do you know I'm not a deist, pantheist, seeker, skeptic, agnostic, or anything else?.?.?.? So what is it that you assert that I believe? I'm telling you what I believe, or am starting to lack there-of. Meaning, I need evidence of the actual moral arbiter. Until then, I remain undecided. Hence, ask for evidence on this forum, which I have been unable to obtain on my own. Until you can demonstrate which God is driving these conclusions, I'm asking you to prove that your believed authority is the one whom is actually driving it. Can you do that, in a way which does not violate fallacious reasoning? Because I sure can't...



Please read the response above. I will accept that absolute morals exist, as soon as you demonstrate WHICH moral arbiter exists. You do understand that differing claimed moral arbiters exist, right?

You already live as if an absolute authority exists by the fact that you treat the universe as meaningful enough to discuss and seek to understand.

It's just that you are in denial over that, claiming said authority does not exist whilst living as if it does, and so its pointless trying to discuss the detail as you'll just stay in denial (which is dangerous because there are crocodiles in that there river).
 
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Kevin Snow

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How might I know that God is talking to them, verses my their brain responding to itself? When people of other religions pray, they claim to also receive answers from their differing God(s). Is it just coinsidence that they are all mistaken, but the Christians are not?
See you already know the truth because you ask for it directly. You know that is what the case is: that there is only one truth and it is with the people of God. And what does the scripture say?

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? ~Jeremiah 17:9

So we know that they are certainly deceiving themselves. But we, the righteous, go from strength to strength as it says:

Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
As they go through the Valley of Baca
they make it a place of springs;
the early rain also covers it with pools.
They go from strength to strength;
each one appears before God in Zion.

~Psalms 84:5-7
 
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cvanwey

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A "Do", would be for example to love your neighbor as yourself.

So Confusious' golden rule is absolute?

A "Don't" would for for example do not murder.

Why is murder objectively wrong? And when exactly is murder not killing?


As for proof, depends on what you consider "proof". For me Jesus Christ was validated by his miracles and his resurrection from the dead and he affirms these principles. Proof enough for me.

Even though the only claimed actual eyewitness is Sal/Paul, and the rest is hearsay, oral tradition, and growing legendary tales?
 
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cvanwey

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You already live as if an absolute authority exists by the fact that you treat the universe as meaningful enough to discuss and seek to understand.

It's just that you are in denial over that, claiming said authority does not exist whilst living as if it does, and so its pointless trying to discuss the detail as you'll just stay in denial (which is dangerous because there are crocodiles in that there river).

Dude! I get what you are saying... Why do you insist on repeating the same thing? Let me restate it clearer...

Which moral arbiter is providing it? Much of the globe claims a differing moral arbiter. Who is right, and how might one derive a sound conclusion w/o being overtly fallacious? I have yet to find a way!

I'm not mocking you. I'm not an angry atheist. But what DOES start to anger me, is blank assertions, which is no better than anyone else's alternative blank assertions (i.e.) a Muslim, or other.....
 
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cvanwey

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See you already know the truth because you ask for it directly. You know that is what the case is: that there is only one truth and it is with the people of God. And what does the scripture say?

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? ~Jeremiah 17:9

So we know that they are certainly deceiving themselves. But we, the righteous, go from strength to strength as it says:

Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
As they go through the Valley of Baca
they make it a place of springs;
the early rain also covers it with pools.
They go from strength to strength;
each one appears before God in Zion.

~Psalms 84:5-7

This no where close to answers my very specific and direct questions. So let me try again...

How do I know when a message is directly from Yahweh? Does the message come with a special caption stating "pss, this is Yahweh speaking now."

How do I know when a message is directly from a different God? Does the message come with a special caption stating "pss, this is <insert God here> speaking now."
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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1. judging actions on whether they are right or wrong

2. depends on your world view, if no creator God, then there is no morality, just personal opinions.
if God exists, then the God who created existence and owns existence defines existence, which includes morality.
I agree. So please demonstrate (which) moral absolute arbiter exists without appealing to fallacious reasoning. Because I sure am not able to do it.

my position would be the LORD revealed to us in the 66 books of scripture from Genesis to revelation.

as far as proving it, what I will not do is bring the LORD to the stand and play His defense attorney to be judged by His creatures.

repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation!
 
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cvanwey

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1. judging actions on whether they are right or wrong

2. depends on your world view, if no creator God, then there is no morality, just personal opinions.
if God exists, then the God who created existence and owns existence defines existence, which includes morality.


my position would be the LORD revealed to us in the 66 books of scripture from Genesis to revelation.

as far as proving it, what I will not do is bring the LORD to the stand and play His defense attorney to be judged by His creatures.

repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation!

Okay, how is this not circular? A Hindu can do the exact same thing you are doing....
 
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