Why Catholic (And Not Just Christian)?

Major1 said:

Personally, I think you need to do a little more study on your understanding of this.
But that is just me.

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The word "Catholic" is first used by St.Ignatius of Antioch in the early 2nd century. He did not use the word as to mean an Institution but rather to describe the universal body of Christ. I remember back when I attended a Pentecostal church that the Pastors there knew this and understood it well.

Mountainmike said:

Read iraneus.
Discover the church which recognised the primacy of and listed of the bishops of Rome, saying their lay true doctrine, Listed in their entireity by Augustine. Heralded in Isaiah, and the office of keys.
" So speaks Peter" said the assembled bishops on recipt of the tome of Leo.
And so on.

There were no other donminations prior to orthodox splitting away until the reformation.

The origin of all others, can be traced to the reformation, including yours.
As can false doctrines such as calvins OSAs

You are right, that it is the Catholic Church not the Roman Catholic Church. But Roman is a name you call it.
It calls itself Just catholic.

[Staff edit].

When Henry declared himself head of the church, and stated the authority of the pope had no validity in England, then persecuting Catholics, In favour of his latter day religion... he broke the chain. So he was no longer Catholic, whatever he believed.

And as you see without the anchor of true church, Anglicanism has fractured into many populist pieces, more all the time. The house divided that cannot stand.
It's why I left.

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[Staff edit]. Long before the Great Schisms there were other schisms which are now generally forgotten in the West. However, we still have the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Coptic Churches to this day. They all predate the Great Schism.

It is an enormous falsehood for any denomination, including your own, to claim to be the One, True, Undivided Church.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination.
Read iraneus and early fathers.

bbbbbbb said:

Long before the Great Schisms there were other schisms which are now generally forgotten in the West. However, we still have the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Coptic Churches to this day. They all predate the Great Schism.

It is an enormous falsehood for any denomination, including your own, to claim to be the One, True, Undivided Church.

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Mountainmike said:

There were no other denominations priors to orthodox splitting away until the reformation.

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Oriental Orthodox, Waldensians, Cathars, Lollards, Moravians, etc. etc.

Isaiah60 said:

The word "Catholic" is first used by St.Ignatius of Antioch in the early 2nd century. He did not use the word as to mean an Institution but rather to describe the universal body of Christ. I remember back when I attended a Pentecostal church that the Pastors there knew this and understood it well.

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That is true. I would be surprised if any well studied Pastor did not understand that.

Mountainmike said:

The Catholic Church is not a denomination.
Read iraneus and early fathers.

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Okay, I was being nice. If you think the Catholic Church is a sect, then so be it.

Isaiah60 said:

The word "Catholic" is first used by St.Ignatius of Antioch in the early 2nd century. He did not use the word as to mean an Institution but rather to describe the universal body of Christ. I remember back when I attended a Pentecostal church that the Pastors there knew this and understood it well.

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And iraneus clearly stated it does mean an institution which has authority on doctrine - that at Rome

Since Pentecostals reinvented a heresy of modalism denounced in earliest church, not sure that is a good example of orthodoxy.

bbbbbbb said:

Okay, I was being nice. If you think the Catholic Church is a sect, then so be it.

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" cults" are centred on a person.
So the Catholic Church is not a cult.

I acknowledged the existence of orthodox - a group of autonomous and autocephalous churches, who have far more in common with Catholicism than Protestant post reformation churches

Also small heretical short lived groups, often rebirth of old heresies E.g. Cathars were gnostics, no longer exist.

None can claim the test of time or ( other than orthodox) a long term parallel denomination.

[Staff edit].

Mountainmike said:

And iraneus clearly stated it does mean an institution which has authority on doctrine - that at Rome

Since Pentecostals reinvented a heresy of modalism denounced in earliest church, not sure that is a good example of orthodoxy.

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Not all Pentecostals are modalists even as not all Roman Catholics are Mariolators.

Albion said:

It is part of the legal name of the church, however.

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Roman Catholic (term) - Wikipedia

Roman Catholic is a term sometimes used to differentiate members of the Catholic Church in full communion with the Pope in Rome from other Christians, especially those who also self-identify as "Catholic", such as Anglo-Catholics and Independent Catholics. The term is not an official title used by the Vatican or bishops in union with the Pope as a designation for their faith or institution. It is instead a term that became common among non-Catholics, especially in English, which is now occasionally used by Roman Catholic officials.[1][2]

In Henrys time, the church was already almost 1500 years old and did not owe its origins to anything connected with the church at Rome.

These developments amount to creating a new church no more or less than saying that your (RC)church was created by the Vatican II council of a half-century ago. After all, many changes in policy were made at that time, so we might say that your church was a new church then, different from the one that came before it.

Henry remained a Catholic until his death and was never declared to be a heretic by the Papacy, not even after the Papal Church finally broke away from the Church of England.

Roman Catholics really should investigate the history before they start talking to us about it.

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Supreme Head of the Church of England - Wikipedia

The Supreme Head of the Church of England was a title created in 1531[1] for King Henry VIII of England, who was responsible for the foundation of the English Protestant church that broke away from the authority of the Roman Catholic Church after the Pope excommunicated Henry in 1533 over his divorce from Catherine of Aragon. The Act of Supremacy of 1534 confirmed the King's status as having supremacy over the church and required the nobility to swear an oath recognising Henry's supremacy.[1] By 1536, Henry had broken with Rome, seized the church's assets in England and declared the Church of England as the established church with himself as its head. Henry's daughter, Queen Mary I, a staunch Catholic, attempted to restore the English church's allegiance to the Pope and repealed the Act of Supremacy in 1555.[2] Her half-sister, the Protestant Elizabeth I, took the throne in 1558 and the next year, Parliament passed the Act of Supremacy of 1559 that restored the original act.[3] The new Oath of Supremacy that nobles were required to swear gave the Queen's title as Supreme Governor of the church rather than Supreme Head, to avoid the charge that the monarchy was claiming divinity or usurping Christ, whom the Bible explicitly identifies as Head of the Church.

History of the Church of England - Wikipedia

The formal history of the Church of England is traditionally dated by the Church to the Gregorian mission to Spain by Saint Augustine of Canterbury in AD 597.[1] As a result of Augustine's mission, Christianity in England, from Anglican (English) perspective, came under the authority of the Pope. However, in 1534 King Henry VIII declared himself to be supreme head of the Church of England. This resulted in a schism with the Papacy. As a result of this schism, many non-Anglicans consider that the Church of England only existed from the 16th century Protestant Reformation.

However, Christianity arrived in the British Isles around AD 47 during the Roman Empire according to Gildas's De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae. Archbishop Restitutus and others are known to have attended the Council of Arles in 314. Christianity developed roots in Sub-Roman Britain and later Ireland, Scotland, and Pictland. The Anglo-Saxons (Germanic pagans who progressively seized British territory) during the 5th, 6th and 7th centuries, established a small number of kingdoms and evangelisation of the Anglo-Saxons was carried out by the successors of the Gregorian mission and by Celtic missionaries from Scotland. The church in Wales remained isolated and was only brought within the jurisdiction of English bishops several centuries later.

The Church of England became the established church by an Act of Parliament in the Act of Supremacy, beginning a series of events known as the English Reformation.[2] During the reign of Queen Mary I and King Philip, the church was fully restored under Rome in 1555. However, the pope's authority was again explicitly rejected after the accession of Queen Elizabeth I when the Act of Supremacy 1558 was passed. Catholic and Reformed factions vied for determining the doctrines and worship of the church. This ended with the 1558 Elizabethan Settlement, which developed the understanding that the church was to be "both Catholic and Reformed".[3]

Mountainmike said:

" cults" are centred on a person.
So the Catholic Church is not a cult.

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Just a heads up here for anyone who cares. That is not the definition of a cult, even though it would be easy to argue that an infallible Pope meets that requirement just as well as David Koresh or a guru.

The best-known cults (Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses) obviously are not "centered on a person." It is what they teach that earns them that designation.

bbbbbbb said:

Not all Pentecostals are modalists even as not all Roman Catholics are Mariolators.

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Yeh, I was thinking that Pentecostals are, by and large, not modalists. And the United Pentecostal Church, which is often called a cult, isn't either, although it is also not Trinitarian.

Albion said:

Of course. Read Eusebius, the Venerable Bede, the Magna Carta, the five ROMAN CATHOLIC councils of the Middle Ages which referred to the English church as the oldest Christian church in the Gentile world.

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Sorry for the late responce, been away from computer for a while.

Will do some research to see if what you claim here is correct.

In the mean time, and as you state here:

Consult any historian. Here is what the well-regarded historian Williston Walker writes in his book, The History of the Christian Church

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Out of the The Catholic Church or the Anglican Church, which one do you believe these historians would say that the first-recorded British Christian martyr was a member of?

Major1 said:

Of course, when one digs into this conundrum, what is then learned is that the word "ALL" is understood by the context by which it is used.

Mark 1:5...…………
"And there went out to him ALL the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem and were ALL baptized in the river Jordan"

Now does that mean every single man woman and child in the land came out and got baptized????
Common, logical sense along with context demands that there was a great number of people who came out, and ALL who did come out were baptized.

John 8:2...……….
"And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and ALL the people came unto him; and he sat down and taught them."

Multitudes of people came to him; for so the universal particle all must be expounded in a multitude of Scriptures which is again demanded by context to mean a large number of people.

The context should always to be understood for a qualifier.

Romans 5:17-18 …………….
"For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
(18) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

The first underlined "all men" in verse 18 does mean every individual, because there is no qualifier in the context. The second underlined "all men" in verse 18 is qualified by the phrase "those who receive" in verse 17. The second ALL here clearly means "all of a group" rather than "every individual".

So then we address what you are really wanting to attack and that is Romans 3:23.....
"ALL have sinned and come short of the Approval of God".

Augustine explained Adam’s transmission of his sin to us with a teaching known as “FEDERAL HEADSHIP,” a view held by most evangelical scholars. Augustine taught the concept of “inherited guilt,” that we all sinned “in Adam”: when Adam “voted” for sin, he acted as our representative. His sin was thus imputed or credited to the entire human race—we were all declared “guilty” for Adam’s one sin.

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This is all very nice Major1, but once again would you agree that it is fair to say that everything you post here, outside of quoting Scripture, are the words of a fallible man who has no authority whatsoever outside of that which you have vested in yourself? I ask that because you rest crucial points of yours, not on the Word of God, but on your fallible, non-authoritative opinion - the word of Major1, as it were.

[Staff edit].

Fidelibus said:

Out of the The Catholic Church or the Anglican Church, which one do you believe these historians would say that the first-recorded British Christian martyr was a member of?

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Pretty sure that any reference would call him a Christian, period. Wikipedia says this: He lived in Roman Britain, but little is known about his religious affiliations...

Major1 said:

"ALL have sinned means ALL have sinned" including the Pope and me and you and yes Mary.

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Okay, if this is your belief, then let me ask you something. Do you also believe that everyone, (Christians such as , you, me, Franklin Graham, Joyce Meyer, Pat Robertson, the Pope, all the posters within this forum, ect...) seeks for God? Yes or No?

Albion said:

Pretty sure that any reference would call him a Christian, period. Wikipedia says this: He lived in Roman Britain, but little is known about his religious affiliations...

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So what Bible do you think he studied, the Protestant Bible or the Catholic Bible that included the Deuterocanonical books?

Fidelibus said:

So what Bible do you think he studied, the Protestant Bible or the Catholic Bible that included the Deuterocanonical books?

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Strictly speaking, none.

Fidelibus said:

So what Bible do you think he studied, the Protestant Bible or the Catholic Bible that included the Deuterocanonical books?

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Just so you know that Anglican Canon includes the deuterocanonicals, and distinctly treats them as the second canon, meaning that they can not be used on their own for the establishment of that which must be believed.