OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

EmSw said:

Was the nation of Israel a bunch of animals, or were they people?

You have yet to quote any OT passage which says how they received life.

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Yes I did. You just do not want to believe it.

John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. "

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him."

By faith Abel was commended as someone righteous and offered a better sacrifice than his brother Cain(Heb. 11:4). Abel made an offering of firstborn flock God accepted(Gen. 4:4). This was evidence he was a man of God.

By faith Noah was warned about the flood and built an ark to save himself and his family(Heb. 11:7). He built an altar to the Lord after the flood and made a burnt offering(Gen. 8:20). The smell of it was pleasing to God(Gen. 8:21).

By faith Abraham went where God told him to go, even though Abraham had no idea where he was going(Heb. 11:8). He also made an altar to the Lord(Gen. 12:7). Abraham almost killed his only son when God tested his faith and told him to sacrifice Isaac(Gen. 22:1-12). An angel then stopped Abraham from killing Isaac. This confirmed his faith in God, and he was credited(Gen. 15:6).

Major1 said:

NOPE!

Not one single Scripture teaches "works plus Faith" = salvation.

I am not going to take the time to correctly explain every Old Test. verse that you cherry pick and try to use to validate a doctrine that does not exist.

Lets do just one. Ezekiel 18:24 has been used by the the Congregational Holiness Church, the Wesleyan Holiness Movement, and the Charismatic Movement to misinterpret Ezekiel to teach that a Christian can lose their salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth!

Oral Roberts and his family came from the Holiness Movement out of Oklahoma. He was a product that came from the Latter Rain Pentecostal Movement of the late 1940’s, and was a well known demonic faith healer. Taken by itself out of context, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING WITH EVERY SINGLE VERSE YOU POST, Ezekiel does appear to support the doctrine that a man can fall away from salvation.

However, as you will see from other Scriptures in Ezekiel, this is NOT the case at all.
Ezekiel 33:12-13 states ...

"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

Did you read that?
... “If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 ...

“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

To claim that a person who commits sin can lose their salvation is to totally ignore such powerful Scriptures as Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham, “And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” The Apostle Paul plainly stated in Romans 4:5, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

These Scriptures clearly eliminate “works” as a necessity to one's eternal salvation.

The damnable heresy which falsely teaches that a believer can lose salvation is nothing less than a form of Lordship Salvation. Whereas the Lordship Salvation crowd teaches that a person must forsake their sins to be saved; the eternal insecurity crowd teaches that committing sin will cause a person to lose salvation.
Then YOUR crowd who teaches WORKS are necessary are based upon self-righteousness and all 3 are WRONG!.

Now I do not have the time or the paticence to do this with every verse you cherry pick and post. But I will say that every single one of them have a proper teaching and explination and NOT ONE OF THEM IS THAT WORKS ARE NEED ED TO BE SAVED.

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So, another Free Grace advocate. I wondered why you fail to see what the passages were saying which I quoted. I need no more explanation from you. FG2 couldn't provide any OT passages which state how they received life and now I know why you can't either.

I'm surprised you haven't clung to John 10:28 like he does. Since good works are not in your belief concerning salvation, all I can say is good luck with staying in your evil works for salvation. Well, not even good luck will help you.

I wrote:

This statement by Jesus about rejoicing angels clearly refers to, and concludes, the Parable of the Lost Coin. The statement does not directly relate to the Parable of the Prodigal; there is no parallel remark made at the end of the Prodigal parable. It seems evident to me, then, that the point of the Lost Coin parable is not identical to the point(s) made by Jesus in his Prodigal Son parable. Why, then, should I think the verse you cited has any direct bearing on the Prodigal parable?

justbyfaith wrote:

Because it is in the word of God, and scripture interprets scripture. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14.

Yes, Scripture does interpret Scripture but how, for instance, does "Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself," (Matthew 27:5)
interpret "And when Baal-Hanan the son of Achbor died, Hadar reigned in his place; and the name of his city was Pau. His wife's name was Mehetabel, the daughter of Matred, the daughter of Mezahab"? (Genesis 36:39) Obviously, not every verse of Scripture interprets every other verse of Scripture. And so, I can make separations between thoughts, and themes, and ideas in God's word and thus say what I did about the parables of the Lost Coin and the parable of Prodigal Son.

justbyfaith said:

I'm glad that you see what he has presented as a strawman, which means that you do not believe what he presented as a strawman...but there are those who actually believe what he has presented as a strawman, so what he wrote was not in vain.

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They may not be vain but they were inaccurate, specious, and mistaken.

justbyfaith said:

Also, I think that the Bible teaches that it is a sinful thing to be in debate mode (Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 12:20); and therefore using debate tactics like identifying things as a "strawman argument" or "non sequitir" or "no true scotsman" etc. is not something I believe God wants us to do.

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??? Was it not God Himself who through His prophet said, "Come, let us reason together..."? (Isaiah 1:18) Debate is simply a means of doing so. Now, endless debate that exists for its own sake is wrong, but debate through which the truth is obtained and clarified, well, that's exactly what Christians - starting with the apostles - have been doing since the advent of Christianity into human history.

Jude 1:3
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Didn't Jesus repeatedly contend with the Pharisees? Yup. How about Paul and Peter? Yes, they got into it with the religious leaders, too. I don't see, then, how you arrive at the notion from Scripture that debate, and rules of logic and proper argument are "something God doesn't want us to do."

justbyfaith said:

being in debate mode is a no-no in God's sight.

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I'm afraid that this simply isn't so. Arguing for the purpose of sowing discord and strife is prohibited in Scripture, but debate that defends and clarifies God's truth has been essential over the centuries to the preservation and establishment of the Church and correct doctrine.

I wrote:

Well, if I've purchased medication at the behest of my doctor for the treatment of, say, pneumonia and I come to believe that the medication won't help and refuse to take it, does the medication cease to be mine? No. I am cut off by my unbelief from its medicinal benefit, but the medicine is still mine. In the same way, salvation may be emptied of most of its spiritual benefit and the believer made useless to God by the believer's unbelief, but they may still be in possession of their membership in God's family.

justbyfaith wrote:

The person would very likely die from pneumonia. What kind of salvation is that?

As I already explained to another poster who said much the same thing as you've said here, the point of the analogy wasn't about being sick but about possession of the medicine whether or not it is used. Your observation completely ignores this point.

Major1 said:

Yes I did. You just do not want to believe it.

John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. "

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him."

By faith Abel was commended as someone righteous and offered a better sacrifice than his brother Cain(Heb. 11:4). Abel made an offering of firstborn flock God accepted(Gen. 4:4). This was evidence he was a man of God.

By faith Noah was warned about the flood and built an ark to save himself and his family(Heb. 11:7). He built an altar to the Lord after the flood and made a burnt offering(Gen. 8:20). The smell of it was pleasing to God(Gen. 8:21).

By faith Abraham went where God told him to go, even though Abraham had no idea where he was going(Heb. 11:8). He also made an altar to the Lord(Gen. 12:7). Abraham almost killed his only son when God tested his faith and told him to sacrifice Isaac(Gen. 22:1-12). An angel then stopped Abraham from killing Isaac. This confirmed his faith in God, and he was credited(Gen. 15:6).

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You're straining at a gnat. None of those passages state how they were saved or received life.

Oh, and concerning John 17:3 you mentioned above, you need to read what John further says.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jesus says eternal life is knowing Him. John states if you say you know Him and do not keep His commandments, you are a liar. He further stated the truth is not in you.

It made me wonder why you couldn't give any passages of truth from the OT concerning how they were saved and received life.

To have eternal life, is to know Him; to know Him is to keep His commandments. The very exact thing Jesus said, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

EmSw said:

Great Psalm, bbbbbbb. Thank you for sharing.

One thing we do see is salvation is not through sacrifices, nor any kind of offering. As we see, God did not desire them, nor require them.

6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; my ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

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Yes, I am always impressed that these words were written during the period of temple sacrifices, yet God made it clear that these were not what He really desired.

EmSw said:

I noticed you had nothing to say about Jesus' words on taking up our cross. It is by losing your life, on your own cross and denying yourself that you save your life.

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Jesus said, "I have come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10)

bbbbbbb said:

Yes, I am always impressed that these words were written during the period of temple sacrifices, yet God made it clear that these were not what He really desired.

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And Hosea said it too.

Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

And Jesus -

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

And then we have this from our Savior -

Mark 12:33
And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

bbbbbbb said:

Jesus said, "I have come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10)

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When He found those who were lost, He told them many things, including take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow me. He told them when they lose their life for His sake, then will they save it.

Major1 said:

I know what you are saying. But the Biblical truth is that we do not have to do anything to be saved and we do not have to do anything to stay saved.

To be saved we have to believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. ONCE we do that we will CHANGE. What we once enjoyed we now hate because the Holy Spirit in us will concive us and convict us that what we once consider FUN was in fact sin and we seek to sin no more.

WHY????? Because we are in fact now NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST!!!!!

I would say to you that we can know a person is saved because we can see "A changed Life in Them".

If a person claims to be saved, and talks the part but you observe him using God's name in vain, and committing adultery and when he is caught he lies about and then kills his, THAT person by his actions/works is NOT A SAVED PERSON.

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You know, I didn't even know there were persons that said we have to do nothing to REMAIN saved, I didn't know about Faith Only, or the Word of Faith or Grace Only or any of that.

I read the bible and it spoke to me.
I see that through Jesus a person can be saved.
But saved from what, exactly?
What do you think we're saved from?

We're saved from sin, we're saved from eternal death, we're saved from the grip of satan.

But if Jesus is to be our Savior is He not also our Lord?
Lord, master. So what does our master teach us? He spend over three years with the Apostles so they could teach us that we're to do nothing? Aside from verses, this just doesn't make sense.

Mathew 28:19-20 Jesus said:
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

We have to ask then, what did Jesus teach the Apostles?
What are they to pass down to the next generation?

What did Jesus tell us to DO?:

• Repent
  “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).
• Follow Me
  “And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men”(Matthew 4:19).
• Rejoice
  “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you” (Matthew 5:11–12).
• Let Your Light Shine
  “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven”(Matthew 5:16).
• Honor God’s Law
  “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17).
• Be Reconciled
  “Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift”(Matthew 5:23–25).
• Do Not Lust
  “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (Matthew 5:28–30).
• Keep Your Word
  “Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil” (Matthew 5:37).
• Go the Second Mile
  “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away”(Matthew 5:38–42).

PART 1 OF 2

PART 2 OF 2

• Love Your Enemies
  “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?” (Matthew 5:44–46).
• Be Perfect
  “If ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:46–48).
• Practice Secret Disciplines
  “. . . When thou doest thine alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 6:1–18).
• Lay Up Treasures
  “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:19–21).
• Seek God’s Kingdom
  “Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matthew 6:33).
• Judge Not
  “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” (Matthew 7:1–3).
• Do Not Cast Pearls
  “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you”(Matthew 7:6).
• Ask, Seek, Knock
  “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened” (Matthew 7:7–8).
• Do Unto Others
  “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets” (Matthew 7:12).
• Choose the Narrow Way
  “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:13–14).
• Beware of False Prophets
  “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (Matthew 7:15–16).
• Pray for Laborers
  “The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few; pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest” (Matthew 9:37–38).
• Be Wise as Serpents
  “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves”(Matthew 10:16).
• Fear Not
  “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
• Hear God’s Voice
  “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15).
• Take My Yoke
  “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light”(Matthew 11:28–30).
• Honor Your Parents
  “For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death”(Matthew 15:4).
• Beware of Leaven
  “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees”(Matthew 16:6).
• Deny Yourself
  “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (Luke 9:23–25).
• Despise Not Little Ones
  “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 18:10).
• Go to Offenders
  “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican” (Matthew 18:15–17).
• Beware of Covetousness
  “And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth” (Luke 12:15).
• Forgive Offenders
  “Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven” (Matthew 18:21–22).
• Honor Marriage
  “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:4–6).
• Be a Servant
  “. . . Whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; and whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:26–28).
• Be a House of Prayer
  “It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer . . . ” (Matthew 21:13).
• Ask in Faith
  “Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea: it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive” (Matthew 21:21–22).
• Bring In the Poor
  “Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:12–14).
• Render to Caesar
  “Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s”(Matthew 22:19–21).
• Love the Lord
  “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” (Matthew 22:37–38).
• Love Your Neighbor
  “And the second [commandment] is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets”(Matthew 22:39–40).
• Await My Return
  “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:42–44).
• Take, Eat, and Drink
  “As they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins”(Matthew 26:26–28).
• Be Born Again
  “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:5–7).
• Keep My Commandments
  “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).
• Watch and Pray
  “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
• Feed My Sheep
  “So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep” (John 21:15–16).
• Baptize My Disciples
  “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
• Receive God’s Power
  “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:49).
• Make Disciples
  “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations . . . teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matthew 28:19–20).

What are the commands of Christ?

Also:

• Give to the poor
  "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing" (Matthew 6:3).

ALSO


Mathew 4:19 witnessing
Mathew 5:3-10 how we are to behave
Mathew 5:16
Mathew 5:19
Mathew 5:32
Mathew 5:36
Mathew 6:2
Mathew 6:16
so many more!!
Mathew 25:34-46
etc etc etc

bbbbbbb said:

You missed my point. The sin was not necessarily speeding, but telling a bare-faced lie about it. One can argue about the morality of speeding because it is not considered to be a mortal sin, but lying is a mortal sin. In your world it seems, lying is not a mortal sin and you only have to do some "time out" in Purgatory. What other mortal sins are not mortal sins in your world?

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I still don't get it, but nevermind. My world is the same as yours and we will be judged fairly at the end by Christ Jesus. However, my approach would be to be holy. have faith and do good works and repent for my sins (more works).

Major1 said:

You said...…..
"It takes both faith and works to be holy."

Certainly in our conversation one of us does not know the meaning of HOLY.

Again, I say to you that if you would allow yourself to undersatand the words of the Bible instead of Catholic dogma, you would be able to grasp that which seems to elude you.

Prior to any consideration of morality, biblical holiness describes a unique relationship that God has established and desires with his people.

That is not based anywhere in Scripture on what we must to do achieve that but it is instead completely based in what Jesus has already done for us.

Those who have responded in faith to the revelation of God in Jesus Christ have been united with Christ. To be a Christian means far more than merely to believe in God—as if the Christian faith were reducible to a system of beliefs. Rather, it means to be united with Jesus in and through the Holy Spirit.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with any works or deeds we MUST do. That my friend is solely a Catholic position which you have bought into.

Romans 3:20
"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight ..."

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God ..."

Are those Scriptures to be read and accepted or read and ignored???

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First, I already stated twice that I understand RCC dogma and can differentiate between the two. It's you who does not understand. And again you rely just on faith and do not consider works which is as I have several times that it's faith and works or what Jesus, Paul and James taught. All of it leads to being holy. Jesus teaches us in Matthew that being holy is important. He is the Christ! However, we can't be like him. We can't even be like Adam. And I said that if you were perfect like Adam, then all it would take is faith. Our faith would allow Adam and us to never leave paradise. But faith alone in this world isn't enough. Even the atheists on Reddit make mockery of this (not a true CWJ strip).

GodsGrace101 said:

PART 2 OF 2

• Love Your Enemies
  “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?” (Matthew 5:44–46).
• Be Perfect
  “If ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:46–48).
• Practice Secret Disciplines
  “. . . When thou doest thine alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 6:1–18).
• Lay Up Treasures
  “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:19–21).
• Seek God’s Kingdom
  “Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matthew 6:33).
• Judge Not
  “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” (Matthew 7:1–3).
• Do Not Cast Pearls
  “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you”(Matthew 7:6).
• Ask, Seek, Knock
  “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened” (Matthew 7:7–8).
• Do Unto Others
  “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets” (Matthew 7:12).
• Choose the Narrow Way
  “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:13–14).
• Beware of False Prophets
  “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (Matthew 7:15–16).
• Pray for Laborers
  “The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few; pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest” (Matthew 9:37–38).
• Be Wise as Serpents
  “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves”(Matthew 10:16).
• Fear Not
  “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
• Hear God’s Voice
  “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15).
• Take My Yoke
  “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light”(Matthew 11:28–30).
• Honor Your Parents
  “For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death”(Matthew 15:4).
• Beware of Leaven
  “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees”(Matthew 16:6).
• Deny Yourself
  “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (Luke 9:23–25).
• Despise Not Little Ones
  “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 18:10).
• Go to Offenders
  “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican” (Matthew 18:15–17).
• Beware of Covetousness
  “And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth” (Luke 12:15).
• Forgive Offenders
  “Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven” (Matthew 18:21–22).
• Honor Marriage
  “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:4–6).
• Be a Servant
  “. . . Whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; and whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:26–28).
• Be a House of Prayer
  “It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer . . . ” (Matthew 21:13).
• Ask in Faith
  “Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea: it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive” (Matthew 21:21–22).
• Bring In the Poor
  “Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:12–14).
• Render to Caesar
  “Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s”(Matthew 22:19–21).
• Love the Lord
  “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” (Matthew 22:37–38).
• Love Your Neighbor
  “And the second [commandment] is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets”(Matthew 22:39–40).
• Await My Return
  “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:42–44).
• Take, Eat, and Drink
  “As they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins”(Matthew 26:26–28).
• Be Born Again
  “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:5–7).
• Keep My Commandments
  “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).
• Watch and Pray
  “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
• Feed My Sheep
  “So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep” (John 21:15–16).
• Baptize My Disciples
  “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
• Receive God’s Power
  “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:49).
• Make Disciples
  “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations . . . teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matthew 28:19–20).

What are the commands of Christ?
https://iblp.org/questions/what-are-commands-christ
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You got it. I couldn't read Matthew at first because it just confused me. How could I justify my liberal social views with my conservative religiousness and fiscalness? However, I knew Matthew is what Jesus taught on the Sermon on the Mount and eventually was able to start reading.

jamesbond007 said:

You got it. I couldn't read Matthew at first because it just confused me. How could I justify my liberal social views with my conservative religiousness and fiscalness? However, I knew Matthew is what Jesus taught on the Sermon on the Mount and eventually was able to start reading.

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Sure. Being liberal or conservative has nothing to do with how Jesus wants us to behave. Both can be humble and kind and peaceful.

Question...
Is repenting a work only because it's something Jesus said to do? Or is there more?

EmSw said:

But didn't you say, a man isn't saved to begin with, if he doesn't keep His commandments?

What does God have, a bunch of disobedient, unlawful children running around doing as they please and not concerned about what He says?

Sanctification is focused on do's and don'ts.

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Justification isn't (Romans 5:1)

1 Thessalonians 4
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.



Perhaps you should study these words of the Savior Himself; I promise you will get so much more from it.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I've heard so many dismiss these words of truth, as if the Savior, didn't know what He was saying, or that He just wanted to deceive us into thinking we could do this. The truth is that many do not want to keep the commandments, for they infringe upon their liberty and desires.

What would be your excuse, that we are not to keep the commandments to enter life?

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We have talked about this before. First of all, the only way we can ever find the ability to be obedient to His commandments is through faith in Jesus Christ (see John 15:1-8).

Secondly, when Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, he knew that he had a works mentality. In the back of His mind, Jesus wanted the rich young ruler to be saved by His grace (see, for example, John 1:14); but as many preachers are aware of, most people will not be responsive to grace until they first hear the message of the law which tells them in the long run that they can never measure up to the righteousness of the Lord in their own lives. They must understand that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. And the law is a perfect way of showing this to the one who honestly measures his own life against it (see Psalms 19:7, Romans 3:20). So Jesus, in one of the gospels, adds, Defraud not, which is not in the ten commandments, to see if the rich young ruler will realize that he had broken it. No dice. However, the rich young ruler did recognize that he was lacking something. When he asked what it was, Jesus told him to sell all he had and give to the poor, and then come and follow Him. This would have been what it would have taken for the rich young ruler to fulfill the last of the commandments Jesus mentioned, to love his neighbor as himself. In doing this Jesus was showing to him that he could not measure up to the requirement of the law, showing him that he was a sinner in need of Christ (the Saviour); using the law as a schoolmaster to lead the man ultimately to Christ. This is wholly conjecture; but I believe that the rich young ruler may have been none other than Barnabas, who later sold his entire house and laid the proceeds at the apostles feet. The word of God does not ever return void (Isaiah 55:10-11).

So then, when Jesus said, "If you want to enter into life, obey the commandments," He was in effect giving him an impossible mandate that can only be fulfilled on the other side of the Cross from where the rich young ruler was located.

When we surrender our lives to Jesus as Saviour and Lord, we are justified, that is, declared righteous, not on the basis of anything righteous that we have done (Titus 3:4-7). It is based solely on faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood (Romans 5:1, Romans 5:9, Romans 3:25). Sanctification comes as the result. We begin to walk according to the commandments in Christ, not because we are focusing on a set of do's and don'ts; but because we are focused on the image of Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now as believers in Christ, when we come face to face with the law we are not unsubject to it in our minds, in fact we are subject to it; because we are not carnally-minded (Romans 8:7). And of course it is the love of God that we keep His commandments (1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10). But we do not, and are not able to, receive the love of God, through looking to obey a set of do's and don'ts. This can only come through faith in Jesus Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:1-5).

EmSw said:

That doesn't mention how OT saints were saved and received life.

Maybe you can tell us what 'live' means. Is it just a head knowledge?

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Yes it does. They received life through faith, just as Abraham did (Genesis 15:6). "Live" means to have life, don'tchaknow...

EmSw said:

But, aren't we told to prove all things? Why do so many have a problem with me proving what is written in the NT? If we are told it was unbelief which caused OT people to be cut off, I want to know where this is found in the OT.

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Okay, I just happened on a scripture today that suffices in my mind (perhaps not in yours if it is closed to the truth).

Psalms 78:21-22, Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel: Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation.

Major1 said:

Yes you do post the words of Paul. However it seems to me that you are rather, shall I say, "unique" in how you understand what he does say.

You posted 1 Corth. 15:1-2 and yea he was speaking to the church in Corinth.
BUT he did not say that they were ALL saved. He said he declared the GOSPEL to them and if they accepted the GOSPEL they would be saved....."UNLESS THEY BELIEVED IN VAIN".

Jesus said exactly the same thing in Matt. 7:21-23...……….
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

My dear sister, please try and understand that Paul said that the GOSPEL does not tell us something that we must do. The gospel tells us what Christ has already done for us. He died for our sins , He was buried and rose again on the 3rd day.

1 Corthinians 15 is contextually about the prominence of the Resurrection in the Gospel and has nothing to do with "works or losing ones salvation". CONTEXT determines the correct exegesis and understanding of the Scriptures.

If we only had the book of Genesis, wouldn't we all believe that salvation was determined by the freedom of choice of getting in the Ark so as to be saved?


John 1:12-13 says...…..
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten [or born]…of God.”

If a person by his freedom to choose receives Christ and becomes a child of God and are thus born again, by that same factual example then to lose our salvation we would then have to be "Un-Born"'.

Can you explain how that would take place and the Scriptures that validate the explination.

As an example, no matter how much a child offends their parents, the parents still can’t take back the life they’ve imparted into that child. It’s the same with God.

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There's just too much strangeness here that I don't know where to begin. It appears you do not see the forest, but the trees. What I get is OSAS, but like the title of this thread says, now what?

I'll start from the end and work backward. Your metaphor makes no sense. How does that relate to John 3:16-21? What Jesus did is save us from an eternal life of death. We would still be conscious but reside in hades. There would be no heaven or hell for us. Nor a purgatory for the RCC brothers. No path, but to the grave.
16 “For God so loved ithe world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world o condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

John 1:12-13 means that we are all God's creation, but that only those who are born again children of God as you stated. However, others who continue to sin are children of wrath. To those who have faith in John 3:16 and Jesus, God gave the right to become God's children. It doesn't meant that they are children of God, but the right to become children of God. In other words, it's what I stated and that John 3:16 is the beginning, not the reaching of our goal. Our response must be to repent and seek forgiveness in Christ. As I mentioned, this takes work. We have to change our actions and make restitution. It's not enough to just say sorry. We can't continue sinning and being sorry and call ourselves children of God. Paul continues to describe those saved, but he means just that. He describes being saved from an eternal life of being dead. He describes that we have another chance for eternal life. As James Bond, I say You Only Live Twice from my movie . Once you are born again and saved means that you won't sin. However, we aren't perfect, we will sin. If we do not change our ways or actions, i.e. do works to change ourselves, then we could end up becoming children of Satan.

John 8:44
"44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Thus, as the title of this thread states OSAS doesn't pass the Sola Scriptura test. If Sola Scripture is fallible since it is human based, what are you going to do when the Sons of God run wild over our planet? I stated that I believe that there are strength and weaknesses in either of the positions of the Protestants and RCC doctrines. It isn't that one side has THE answer.

Do SDA, believe that God has a Plan of Redemption?

GodsGrace101 said:

Sure. Being liberal or conservative has nothing to do with how Jesus wants us to behave. Both can be humble and kind and peaceful.

Question...
Is repenting a work only because it's something Jesus said to do? Or is there more?

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To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works. Let's say I have a quick temper and it has gotten me in trouble with my loved ones. I have to vow and work to change losing my temper. It may be catching oneself and counting to ten or saying three Our Fathers before speaking or it may involve going to see a psychiatrist or other professional counselor. All of this involves works and trying to redeem our sins. Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins, but it helps to change our evil ways. Prayer helps to change our ways. The Holy Spirit helps to change our ways. This is what Jesus taught me.