OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

amariselle

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The labour, to a certain extent involves studying hard in order that you might rightly understand the message of the gospel. I did not say that salvation was by works. I merely pointed out that labouring is involved in entering into His rest. Once we have entered into His rest, no more labour is needed; but we continue to labour so that others might be saved (1 Thessalonians 1:3). People often labour to try to earn salvation and that is where they are in life. They are still under the law, and the law is working as a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ. They are labouring to try to gain salvation through works; but the good news is that in studying the word to determine what is required of them, many will come across the doctrines of grace and will be able to enter into his rest, so that they can cease labouring for their own salvation.

Does a child need you “study hard” to understand the Gospel?

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” - Matthew 9:14

13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them,
Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. - Mark 10:13-16
 
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justbyfaith

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Since, as I've explained in earlier posts, Scripture makes it very clear that a genuinely born-again person cannot lose their salvation, I must interpret what Paul is saying here in the light of these other verses. What, then, does "cut off" mean for the genuinely born-again Gentile believer? Well, if I've purchased medication at the behest of my doctor for the treatment of, say, pneumonia and I come to believe that the medication won't help and refuse to take it, does the medication cease to be mine? No. I am cut off by my unbelief from its medicinal benefit, but the medicine is still mine. In the same way, salvation may be emptied of most of its spiritual benefit and the believer made useless to God by the believer's unbelief, but they may still be in possession of their membership in God's family.
The person would very likely die from pneumonia. What kind of salvation is that?
 
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justbyfaith

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Does a child need you “study hard” to understand the Gospel?

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” - Matthew 9:14

13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them,
Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. - Mark 10:13-16
Like I said, those of us who have studied have the privilege of giving the fruits of our study to those who are not studied.

Now as the children are growing up, it is good for them to be Bereans (Acts of the Apostles 17:11) and study to shew themselves approved (2 Timothy 2:15). As children, of course they can be saved by receiving with simple faith the message of the gospel as it is presented to them. But as they grow up and become involved in critical thinking in school, work will need to be involved in making sure that they continue to understand the gospel as it is attacked from outside sources such as philosophy and cultic doctrines and worldly religions. And many who begin with faith have their periods of going away from God and then coming back, as in the case of the prodigal son. So then, when they come back, they must overcome all those things that might attempt to intellectually hinder their faith. And this may involve labour in doctrine to the point of being able to enter into His rest. See also 1 Timothy 4:16.
 
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amariselle

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Like I said, those of us who have studied have the privilege of giving the fruits of our study to those who are not studied.

Now as the children are growing up, it is good for them to be Bereans (Acts of the Apostles 17:11) and study to shew themselves approved (2 Timothy 2:15). As children, of course they can be saved by receiving with simple faith the message of the gospel as it is presented to them. But as they grow up and become involved in critical thinking in school, work will need to be involved in making sure that they continue to understand the gospel as it is attacked from outside sources such as philosophy and cultic doctrines and worldly religions. And many who begin with faith have their periods of going away from God and then coming back, as in the case of the prodigal son. So then, when they come back, they must overcome all those things that might attempt to intellectually hinder their faith. And this may involve labour in doctrine to the point of being able to enter into His rest. See also 1 Timothy 4:16.

I agree with most of what you say, as it is about spiritual maturity. We all start out as “babes in Christ”, and some of us don’t mature as quickly as others. However, once one has believed, they have “entered into rest”, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. We are adopted sons and daughters, and God will never cast us out or lose us. (Just as the prodigal never stopped being His father’s son).
 
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EmSw

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See Hebrews 3:17-19. There unbelief is clearly related to committing sin.

That it may be, but you will not find anywhere in the OT, that is was unbelief which cut them off.

Because it is in the word of God, and scripture interprets scripture. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14.

Matthew 5:48 and Galatians 3:10-13, and James 2:10.

Again, you have failed like all the others to find where God says keep the law perfectly.

The whole of scripture does not teach that we are saved by keeping His commandments (see Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16). We are saved, rather, unto keeping His commandments (Ephesians 2:10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 5:5).

What if a man does not keep His commandments after believing? Does he lose his salvation? Please don't say he wasn't saved to begin with. What people don't realize, is that if he wasn't saved to begin with, then he becomes saved once he keeps His commandments.
 
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EmSw

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Genesis 15:6, Isaiah 51:1-2, Habakkuk 2:4. You can click on these to read them, or look them up in your kjv.

I looked them up and not one says anyone about being saved or how they received life.

Why not use these passages, which specifically say how OT saints were saved or how they received life?

Psalm 7:10
My defense is of God, Who saves the upright in heart.

Psalm 18:27
For You will save the humble people, but will bring down haughty looks.

Psalm 34:18
The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Proverbs 4:4
He also taught me, and said to me: “Let your heart retain my words; Keep my commands, and live.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commands and live, And my law as the apple of your eye.

Proverbs 28:18
Whoever walks blamelessly will be saved, but he who is perverse in his ways will suddenly fall.

Jeremiah 38:20
But Jeremiah said, “they shall not deliver you. Please, obey the voice of the Lord which I speak to you. So it shall be well with you, and your soul shall live.

Ezekiel 3:21
Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

Ezekiel 18:9
If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully— He is just; He shall surely live!” Says the Lord God.

Ezekiel 18:21
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:22
None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:28
Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Isaiah 30:15
For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: “in returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength.” But you would not,

Do you believe OT saints and NT saints are saved and received life the same way?

Taking up our own cross and denying ourselves is equivalent to saying don't be selfish, put others before yourself, put Jesus before others and yourself. This is the same as John 13:35. And abiding in His word means that we will love one another and bear much fruit; these all mean basically the same thing to a certain extent. We love other people, putting them before ourselves, as the result of faith in Jesus Christ and not in order to earn salvation (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:1-5).

You didn't read everything Jesus said about taking up your own cross, did you?

Matthew 10
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


Matthew 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Luke 9
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


A cross is an instrument of death, not something you carry on your back. By your own cross, you lose your life. And when you lose your life for His sake, THEN YOU SHALL FIND IT, THAT IS, SAVE IT.

Did you notice the order Jesus gave?
1. come after Me
2. deny yourself
3. take up your cross daily
4. follow Him

It is after we do these things for His sake, that we will save our life. This is part of the Gospel Jesus preached. Jesus' Gospel was about YOUR death (taking up your cross), YOUR burial (denying yourself), and YOUR resurrection (your salvation).
 
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bbbbbbb

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I looked them up and not one says anyone about being saved or how they received life.

Why not use these passages, which specifically say how OT saints were saved or how they received life?

Psalm 7:10
My defense is of God, Who saves the upright in heart.

Psalm 18:27
For You will save the humble people, but will bring down haughty looks.

Psalm 34:18
The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Proverbs 4:4
He also taught me, and said to me: “Let your heart retain my words; Keep my commands, and live.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commands and live, And my law as the apple of your eye.

Proverbs 28:18
Whoever walks blamelessly will be saved, but he who is perverse in his ways will suddenly fall.

Jeremiah 38:20
But Jeremiah said, “they shall not deliver you. Please, obey the voice of the Lord which I speak to you. So it shall be well with you, and your soul shall live.

Ezekiel 3:21
Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

Ezekiel 18:9
If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully— He is just; He shall surely live!” Says the Lord God.

Ezekiel 18:21
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:22
None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:28
Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Isaiah 30:15
For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: “in returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength.” But you would not,

Do you believe OT saints and NT saints are saved and received life the same way?



You didn't read everything Jesus said about taking up your own cross, did you?

Matthew 10
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


Matthew 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Luke 9
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


A cross is an instrument of death, not something you carry on your back. By your own cross, you lose your life. And when you lose your life for His sake, THEN YOU SHALL FIND IT, THAT IS, SAVE IT.

Did you notice the order Jesus gave?
1. come after Me
2. deny yourself
3. take up your cross daily
4. follow Him

It is after we do these things for His sake, that we will save our life. This is part of the Gospel Jesus preached. Jesus' Gospel was about YOUR death (taking up your cross), YOUR burial (denying yourself), and YOUR resurrection (your salvation).

Psalm 40:1 I waited patiently for the Lord;
And He inclined to me and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up out of the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay,
And He set my feet upon a rock making my footsteps firm.
3 He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God;
Many will see and fear
And will trust in the Lord.


4 How blessed is the man who has made the Lord his trust,
And has not turned to the proud, nor to those who lapse into falsehood.
5 Many, O Lord my God, are the wonders which You have done,
And Your thoughts toward us;
There is none to compare with You.
If I would declare and speak of them,
They would be too numerous to count.


6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God;
Your Law is within my heart.”


9 I have proclaimed glad tidings of righteousness in the great congregation;
Behold, I will not restrain my lips,
O Lord, You know.
10 I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart;
I have spoken of Your faithfulness and Your salvation;
I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation.


11 You, O Lord, will not withhold Your compassion from me;
Your lovingkindness and Your truth will continually preserve me.
12 For evils beyond number have surrounded me;
My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to see;
They are more numerous than the hairs of my head,
And my heart has failed me.


13 Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me;
Make haste, O Lord, to help me.
14 Let those be ashamed and humiliated together
Who seek my life to destroy it;
Let those be turned back and dishonored
Who delight in my hurt.
15 Let those be appalled because of their shame
Who say to me, “Aha, aha!”
16 Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
Let those who love Your salvation say continually,
“The Lord be magnified!”
17 Since I am afflicted and needy,
Let the Lord be mindful of me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
Do not delay, O my God.
 
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justbyfaith

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What if a man does not keep His commandments after believing? Does he lose his salvation? Please don't say he wasn't saved to begin with. What people don't realize, is that if he wasn't saved to begin with, then he becomes saved once he keeps His commandments.

If a man does not keep the commandments after believing, he does not lose his salvation. The focus is not to be obeying a set of do's and don'ts, the focus is to be Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18); and we will be sanctified thus.

Upon receiving a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, a man is justified (declared righteous). If the faith is truly living and saving, sanctification will follow as the result of faith. But if anyone who is truly born again sins, he has an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). In fact God doesn't even count him as sinning (his sin is not imputed to him) because he is not under the law, is dead to the law, and is delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6; Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4, Romans 5:13) --study these verses together and meditate on their reality and I believe you will come to a specific revelation).
 
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justbyfaith

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I looked them up and not one says anyone about being saved or how they received life.

Why not use these passages, which specifically say how OT saints were saved or how they received life?

Psalm 7:10
My defense is of God, Who saves the upright in heart.

Psalm 18:27
For You will save the humble people, but will bring down haughty looks.

Psalm 34:18
The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Proverbs 4:4
He also taught me, and said to me: “Let your heart retain my words; Keep my commands, and live.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commands and live, And my law as the apple of your eye.

Proverbs 28:18
Whoever walks blamelessly will be saved, but he who is perverse in his ways will suddenly fall.

Jeremiah 38:20
But Jeremiah said, “they shall not deliver you. Please, obey the voice of the Lord which I speak to you. So it shall be well with you, and your soul shall live.

Ezekiel 3:21
Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

Ezekiel 18:9
If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully— He is just; He shall surely live!” Says the Lord God.

Ezekiel 18:21
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:22
None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:28
Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Isaiah 30:15
For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: “in returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength.” But you would not,

Do you believe OT saints and NT saints are saved and received life the same way?



You didn't read everything Jesus said about taking up your own cross, did you?

Matthew 10
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


Matthew 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Luke 9
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


A cross is an instrument of death, not something you carry on your back. By your own cross, you lose your life. And when you lose your life for His sake, THEN YOU SHALL FIND IT, THAT IS, SAVE IT.

Did you notice the order Jesus gave?
1. come after Me
2. deny yourself
3. take up your cross daily
4. follow Him

It is after we do these things for His sake, that we will save our life. This is part of the Gospel Jesus preached. Jesus' Gospel was about YOUR death (taking up your cross), YOUR burial (denying yourself), and YOUR resurrection (your salvation).
The just shall live by faith. Habakkuk 2:4.
 
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justbyfaith

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That it may be, but you will not find anywhere in the OT, that it was unbelief which cut them off.

That is a lot of ground to cover, and I'm sure I would find it eventually if I read with the extensive reading that it would take to find the verses. I do read through the Old Testament slowly compared to my other reading (a little more than twice every three years). I am not of the kind of thinking to search for the verses just so I can prove a point.

But you need to know that the NT is just as inspired, if not more inspired, than the OT. You yourself said recently that you don't have anything against the NT. If that be true, then you accept it as inspired, and therefore OT verses are not required to prove a point if NT verses prove that point.
 
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Major1

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What if we don't do the good works?
Romans 2:5-13
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

If a person who calls themselves born again, never shows any fruit/woks in their lives, then they are probably not saved.

To that type of person Jesus said in Matt. 7:21-23...……
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
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Major1

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If He KEEPS ME SAVED that means I've lost my free will.
Do you believe we lose our free will once we become saved?
What if I decide I no longer wish to serve God?
Am I not allowed to leave Him?
What are all those IF's in the N.T. if not about salvation??

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Paul preached the gospel --- he calls his audience BRETHREN -they are saved persons.

Of course, they received the gospel thus they are saved.

Paul says that they also are saved by this gospel
IF they hold fast the word preached, unless they have believed in vain.

Paul is saying it not me.
I just post what he says.

Yes you do post the words of Paul. However it seems to me that you are rather, shall I say, "unique" in how you understand what he does say.

You posted 1 Corth. 15:1-2 and yea he was speaking to the church in Corinth.
BUT he did not say that they were ALL saved. He said he declared the GOSPEL to them and if they accepted the GOSPEL they would be saved....."UNLESS THEY BELIEVED IN VAIN".

Jesus said exactly the same thing in Matt. 7:21-23...……….
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

My dear sister, please try and understand that Paul said that the GOSPEL does not tell us something that we must do. The gospel tells us what Christ has already done for us. He died for our sins , He was buried and rose again on the 3rd day.

1 Corthinians 15 is contextually about the prominence of the Resurrection in the Gospel and has nothing to do with "works or losing ones salvation". CONTEXT determines the correct exegesis and understanding of the Scriptures.

If we only had the book of Genesis, wouldn't we all believe that salvation was determined by the freedom of choice of getting in the Ark so as to be saved?


John 1:12-13 says...…..
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten [or born]…of God.”

If a person by his freedom to choose receives Christ and becomes a child of God and are thus born again, by that same factual example then to lose our salvation we would then have to be "Un-Born"'.

Can you explain how that would take place and the Scriptures that validate the explination.

As an example, no matter how much a child offends their parents, the parents still can’t take back the life they’ve imparted into that child. It’s the same with God.
 
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Major1

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This is what I am talking about. Too often I see Christians believing that faith is enough. Even a street beggar I used to see knew more. He held a large sign on a stick which read, "REPENT! The End Is Near. John 3:16." He understood that we had to do works, i.e. repent, to add to our faith in order to be saved. He understood that we needed to become holy as possible.

I don't think you understand what constitutes being holy even though the Bible teaches us. God is holy. He wants followers who are holy.

It takes both faith and works to be holy.

We should be baptized.
Acts 22:16 ESV
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

We should be God-fearing peoples.
Psalm 96:9 ESV
Worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness; tremble before him, all the earth!

We should repent for our sins
Acts 2:38 ESV
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Repent and do good works, i.e. bear fruit. Good tree (faith) produces good fruit (works).
Matthew 3:8 ESV
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

We should sing praises and give thanks to our Lord
Psalm 30:4 ESV
Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name.

The Holy Spirit helps achieve the impossible
Romans 8:26 ESV
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Matthew 19:26 ESV
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

What Does the Bible Say About Being Holy?

Jesus discusses these believers, i.e. demons, who try to get into heaven via their faith and works. It includes the verses I hear often to back up their "faith."
Matthew 7:21-27 ESV
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. ...

One of the most difficult works
Matthew 6:14-15 ESV
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Give in secret and not to show others that you are charitable
Matthew 6:1-6 ESV
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ...

We have to be better than the Pharisees
Matthew 5:17-20 ESV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Being holy is hard
Matthew 7:13-14 ESV
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Doing good works and not just working for self-gains and riches
Matthew 6:19-20 ESV
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Works is doing
Matthew 16:27 ESV

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

What Does the Bible Say About Getting Into Heaven?

The most difficult verses are in the Bible. These contains Jesus teachings. I didn't really read Matthew until I was Christian for several years. It was very difficult in reading it.

Here's what I learned in addition to having faith in Jesus, John 3:16. Do I talk about my faith with others like I talk about my hobbies, my wife, my children and how good a cook and wife she is or how proud I am of my kids' accomplishments? I made a list of whom I can discuss of my faith, i.e. family, friends and co-workers. Even relative strangers on a forum such as this. Do I put into practice the Lord's Supper? Sure, I receive communion, but do I invite those who share my faith or are thinking about it to my own supper? These are some ideas my church gave to me. Other churches have their own works such as clean up day, fund raising events, cure malaria day and so on. We have a help serve the poor representative who comes and recruits volunteers for their service meals. All of it is part of our faith.

I think you say the right verses of Paul, but you want to lives those verses, too. The Holy Spirit is in Romans and will be the one who intercedes for us to achieve.

You said...…..
"It takes both faith and works to be holy."

Certainly in our conversation one of us does not know the meaning of HOLY.

Again, I say to you that if you would allow yourself to undersatand the words of the Bible instead of Catholic dogma, you would be able to grasp that which seems to elude you.

Prior to any consideration of morality, biblical holiness describes a unique relationship that God has established and desires with his people.

That is not based anywhere in Scripture on what we must to do achieve that but it is instead completely based in what Jesus has already done for us.

Those who have responded in faith to the revelation of God in Jesus Christ have been united with Christ. To be a Christian means far more than merely to believe in God—as if the Christian faith were reducible to a system of beliefs. Rather, it means to be united with Jesus in and through the Holy Spirit.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with any works or deeds we MUST do. That my friend is solely a Catholic position which you have bought into.

Romans 3:20

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight ..."

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God ..."

Are those Scriptures to be read and accepted or read and ignored???
 
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Major1

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A. I agree that Good works is the product of being saved not the cause of it.
A. It is not true that all the actions listed above are called good works or that they are before being saved. Specifically these two examples.

In Rom 10 - what is it that "results" in salvation?

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

That which "results in salvation" most certainly did not come after salvation.

Acts 2 -
Repentance preceds salvation and also preceds forgiveness in 1 John 1:9

Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.



You have free will and so of course - you can choose as you wish.

But those points I highlight come straight from the text itself... the details in it.




The denominationalism that tries to promote Calvinism or OSAS in this case no matter the details in the text to the contrary -- might be the problem.



I did not say that. I said that repentence precedes forgiveness, precedes the born-again experience, precedes justification, precedes salvation.

You have edited/changed that into


Which was not what I said. It is you saying that.



There is exactly one text in the Bible using the phrase "by faith alone"
James 2
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

However you seem to want to infer that belief, repentance, turning to God, confessing sin - is not a "by faith alone" action.

But in fact -- it is.

And Romans 10 says it "results in salvation"


The Bible says - the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- not "just christians"

And it says - Jesus "draws ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32 -- not "just Christians"



My quote does not say "start living in obedience to God - then that results in salvation".




True. The "problem" we are having on this thread is that "grab the rope and be saved" is being called "salvation by works" by some folks.

You said...………
"The "problem" we are having on this thread is that "grab the rope and be saved" is being called "salvation by works" by some folks."

No sir, that is not the problem here. The problem is that your do not seem to be able to understand what is said because you are intrenched in what you believe.

The "ROPE" is not works. The example of the ROPE was made to show that FAITH comes before repentance and works.

A man must believe that the ROPE (Jesus) will save him from the fire. THEN and only then can the reason for accepting Christ be explained.

It really is not as hard as you are making it.
 
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GodsGrace101

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If a person who calls themselves born again, never shows any fruit/woks in their lives, then they are probably not saved.

To that type of person Jesus said in Matt. 7:21-23...……
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I agree but with some reservation.
Maybe a Christian is new and might even have some of his old life with him.

Maybe it takes some time to come to the understanding that we're to do some good...

So many churches are teaching that we don't have to do anything --

But, generally speaking, I'd have to agree.
It's just that we can't know who is saved and who isn't ---
Only God can know that.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yes you do post the words of Paul. However it seems to me that you are rather, shall I say, "unique" in how you understand what he does say.

You posted 1 Corth. 15:1-2 and yea he was speaking to the church in Corinth.
BUT he did not say that they were ALL saved. He said he declared the GOSPEL to them and if they accepted the GOSPEL they would be saved....."UNLESS THEY BELIEVED IN VAIN".

Jesus said exactly the same thing in Matt. 7:21-23...……….
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

My dear sister, please try and understand that Paul said that the GOSPEL does not tell us something that we must do. The gospel tells us what Christ has already done for us. He died for our sins , He was buried and rose again on the 3rd day.

1 Corthinians 15 is contextually about the prominence of the Resurrection in the Gospel and has nothing to do with "works or losing ones salvation". CONTEXT determines the correct exegesis and understanding of the Scriptures.

If we only had the book of Genesis, wouldn't we all believe that salvation was determined by the freedom of choice of getting in the Ark so as to be saved?


John 1:12-13 says...…..
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten [or born]…of God.”

If a person by his freedom to choose receives Christ and becomes a child of God and are thus born again, by that same factual example then to lose our salvation we would then have to be "Un-Born"'.

Can you explain how that would take place and the Scriptures that validate the explination.

As an example, no matter how much a child offends their parents, the parents still can’t take back the life they’ve imparted into that child. It’s the same with God.
Well, we like to think it's the same with God, but God is God.
And even a human child can be disowned. If a child beats up his parents and mistreats him, eventually they'll tire of it and get him out of the house. Is he still a child if his parents don't even care to see him? Anyway, I like to stick to what the bible says...human understanding is ok, but we have the writers of the N.T. we can look to for understanding.

It seems to me we look for comfort where there is none. The only comfort we're to seek is believing in JESUS, and holding on to that belief until the day we die.

However, since Paul and the other writers, made provision for those leaving the faith, it must surely mean that it's possible to leave the faith.

I posted one verse, there are many. If I believed in Faith Only and was then confronted with so many verse, I'd stop and take notice. Surely you can't explain all of them away?

Let's look again at
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

You believe I have a unique way of exegeting the above.
Well, I dare say that most churches believe in loss of salvation.
This has been believed from the beginning of the church, up until J. Calvin decided on the perseverance of the saints (which required works, BTW). Which then became eternal security, which then became OSAS.

As you can see, Paul was speaking to his BRETHREN, who had RECEIVED the gospel, and they were SAVED by this gospel, IF they held fast to it.

Surely Paul taught what Jesus taught.
And what did Jesus teach?
Jesus taught to do good deeds/works. He even said we would be judged by them.
John 5:28-29

Here are some more verses on the possibility of loss of salvation:

2 Chronicles 15:2
Mathew 5:13
Romans 11:22
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Timothy 4:16

and many more...

As to the Ark, Yes, we would have had to enter it...
and then work to keep the animals fed and clean.
 
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EmSw

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Psalm 40:1 I waited patiently for the Lord;
And He inclined to me and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up out of the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay,
And He set my feet upon a rock making my footsteps firm.
3 He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God;
Many will see and fear
And will trust in the Lord.


4 How blessed is the man who has made the Lord his trust,
And has not turned to the proud, nor to those who lapse into falsehood.
5 Many, O Lord my God, are the wonders which You have done,
And Your thoughts toward us;
There is none to compare with You.
If I would declare and speak of them,
They would be too numerous to count.


6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God;
Your Law is within my heart.”


9 I have proclaimed glad tidings of righteousness in the great congregation;
Behold, I will not restrain my lips,
O Lord, You know.
10 I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart;
I have spoken of Your faithfulness and Your salvation;
I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation.


11 You, O Lord, will not withhold Your compassion from me;
Your lovingkindness and Your truth will continually preserve me.
12 For evils beyond number have surrounded me;
My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to see;
They are more numerous than the hairs of my head,
And my heart has failed me.


13 Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me;
Make haste, O Lord, to help me.
14 Let those be ashamed and humiliated together
Who seek my life to destroy it;
Let those be turned back and dishonored
Who delight in my hurt.
15 Let those be appalled because of their shame
Who say to me, “Aha, aha!”
16 Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
Let those who love Your salvation say continually,
“The Lord be magnified!”
17 Since I am afflicted and needy,
Let the Lord be mindful of me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
Do not delay, O my God.

Great Psalm, bbbbbbb. Thank you for sharing.

One thing we do see is salvation is not through sacrifices, nor any kind of offering. As we see, God did not desire them, nor require them.

6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; my ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
 
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EmSw

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If a man does not keep the commandments after believing, he does not lose his salvation. The focus is not to be obeying a set of do's and don'ts, the focus is to be Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18); and we will be sanctified thus.

But didn't you say, a man isn't saved to begin with, if he doesn't keep His commandments?

What does God have, a bunch of disobedient, unlawful children running around doing as they please and not concerned about what He says?

Sanctification is focused on do's and don'ts.

1 Thessalonians 4
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.


Upon receiving a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, a man is justified (declared righteous). If the faith is truly living and saving, sanctification will follow as the result of faith. But if anyone who is truly born again sins, he has an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). In fact God doesn't even count him as sinning (his sin is not imputed to him) because he is not under the law, is dead to the law, and is delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6; Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4, Romans 5:13) --study these verses together and meditate on their reality and I believe you will come to a specific revelation).

Perhaps you should study these words of the Savior Himself; I promise you will get so much more from it.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I've heard so many dismiss these words of truth, as if the Savior, didn't know what He was saying, or that He just wanted to deceive us into thinking we could do this. The truth is that many do not want to keep the commandments, for they infringe upon their liberty and desires.

What would be your excuse, that we are not to keep the commandments to enter life?
 
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Major1

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I agree but with some reservation.
Maybe a Christian is new and might even have some of his old life with him.

Maybe it takes some time to come to the understanding that we're to do some good...

So many churches are teaching that we don't have to do anything --

But, generally speaking, I'd have to agree.
It's just that we can't know who is saved and who isn't ---
Only God can know that.

I know what you are saying. But the Biblical truth is that we do not have to do anything to be saved and we do not have to do anything to stay saved.

To be saved we have to believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. ONCE we do that we will CHANGE. What we once enjoyed we now hate because the Holy Spirit in us will concive us and convict us that what we once consider FUN was in fact sin and we seek to sin no more.

WHY????? Because we are in fact now NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST!!!!!

I would say to you that we can know a person is saved because we can see "A changed Life in Them".

If a person claims to be saved, and talks the part but you observe him using God's name in vain, and committing adultery and when he is caught he lies about and then kills his, THAT person by his actions/works is NOT A SAVED PERSON.
 
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