Losing faith in "faith alone"

Status
Not open for further replies.

112358

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2018
511
160
Southeast
✟43,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It seems you are writing about the "prosperity Gospel".
That one is false too. I had in mind something related but not precisely the same, which is church industry. Church, INC. Church that makes sure everyone hears what they want to hear (not what they need to hear, because it is uncomfortable) so the multiple $billions$ keep rolling in and more retirements get funded, bigger buildings get built, better rock bands get assembled, more degrees get conferred, etc. Big business keeps getting bigger.
 
Upvote 0

112358

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2018
511
160
Southeast
✟43,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, how did He deal with Abraham in those instances where he gave his wife to other men?



I absolutely agree. That's the exact same reason He keeps all those secure who are His, because He has promised and He will do it, for His Name's sake.



Actually, Scripture tells us plainly that the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world. Salvation through Christ has always been God's perfect plan, and the promise of this Gospel was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law. Everything God did was to work all things together according to His perfect will and His perfect plan.



Actually, the "good work He began in us" is not yet complete. It will be when we have either been resurrected in perfect, incorruptible, imperishable heavenly bodies, or instantly transformed to such. Our salvation is complete. Yet, for now we have this treasure in "earthen vessels", that is, our perishing, sinful flesh.

And you're right, Jesus clarified just how great the standard is for perfect obedience in thought, word and deed because the point is salvation is not possible with man, only with God.



If one is a born again, sealed believer, who has passed from death to life and been made a "new creation" in Christ, they are not under condemnation or the wrath of God. They are sealed by the Holy Spirit and they will be found in Him, never lost or cast out, and can absolutely know Jesus will raise them up at the "last day." God is never going to destroy His adopted children.
Who do you think God might be more upset with, His children who rebelled against Him before the Savior came, or His children who rebel against Him now that the Savior has come and who crucify Him afresh?
 
Upvote 0

112358

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2018
511
160
Southeast
✟43,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's quite true but the OP is ...
... which falsely teaches that a man is justified by works + faith.

Christian believers should have good works because their faith in Christ should produce the good works of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.(GAL.5:22) Otherwise, they are false Christians/prophets or goats or tares/chaff.
....... But it is not their good works that justifies. It is their faith in Christ that justifies.

It is not what we do(= good works or obedience) as Christian believers that justifies. It is what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross(= obediently shed His blood) that justifies.

We can never be righteous enough to be justified, no matter how much good works we do. Jesus Christ gave us His righteousness through our faith in Him so that we can be justified.

When we appear in front of God, we do not show Him our good works, in order to be justified. We show Him our faith in Christ Jesus = by hugging, thanking and worshipping Him.
Faith plus nothing asserts that nothing we “do” has any bearing on our salvation. Yet faith/belief is something we “do”. Non sequitur. End of debate.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's quite true but the OP is ...
... which falsely teaches that a man is justified by works + faith.

Christian believers should have good works because their faith in Christ should produce the good works of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.(GAL.5:22) Otherwise, they are false Christians/prophets or goats or tares/chaff.
....... But it is not their good works that justifies. It is their faith in Christ that justifies.

It is not what we do(= good works or obedience) as Christian believers that justifies. It is what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross(= obediently shed His blood) that justifies.

We can never be righteous enough to be justified, no matter how much good works we do. Jesus Christ gave us His righteousness through our faith in Him so that we can be justified.

When we appear in front of God, we do not show Him our good works, in order to be justified. We show Him our faith in Christ Jesus = by hugging, thanking and worshipping Him.

James says that we are justified by works.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Granted, this is Grace + works and,
it is not.... works + grace.

Grace is how we are initially and ultimately saved.
Works also play a part of the salvation process after we are saved.
If not, then Christians can be axe murdering rapists and God will still be pleased with them. We also are not changed to a point where our free will is no longer, either. Believers have free will and they can either do good or evil. It is their choice. Yes, they have more of an inclination to do good if they are truly regenerated by God. But they still have free will. They still have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Again, one should be careful to not mix salvation up with discipleship. (Regardless of what the dictionary tells you).

Saved by the obedience of ONE really means ONE. (Lest anyone continue to say we are saved by our own obedience) That is a blatant contradiction of Scripture.

Do you continue in the words of Jesus?

Yes, or no?

Jesus says if you continue in His word(s), then you are His disciple(s) indeed.

"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).

Also, Jesus says that person who hears (obeys) God's words is of God.

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

Jesus criticized the Jews by saying they hear not (obey not) God's Word because they are not of God. They were of their father, the devil, and the lusts of their father they did (See John 8:44). So yeah. I really do not see Faith Alone-ism within the Scriptures (Unless of course you just isolate certain verses you want to see). For Belief Alone-ism goes contrary to everything Jesus and His followers taught. It also goes against basic morality, as well. Unless of course you care to explain how your belief lines up with the goodness of God and or morality.

Being a disciple implies that we have to follow Jesus.
A person's master is determined by who or what they serve.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
That one is false too. I had in mind something related but not precisely the same, which is church industry. Church, INC. Church that makes sure everyone hears what they want to hear (not what they need to hear, because it is uncomfortable) so the multiple $billions$ keep rolling in and more retirements get funded, bigger buildings get built, better rock bands get assembled, more degrees get conferred, etc. Big business keeps getting bigger.

I am not in agreement with the “seeker-sensitive” church movement either.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Who do you think God might be more upset with, His children who rebelled against Him before the Savior came, or His children who rebel against Him now that the Savior has come and who crucify Him afresh?

What does the word of God say He does when His children are disobedient? Does He “chastise” them? Or does He cast them out and ultimately cast them into Hell?
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Do you continue in the words of Jesus?

Yes, or no?

Jesus says if you continue in His word(s), then you are His disciple(s) indeed.

"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).

Also, Jesus says that person who hears (obeys) God's words is of God.

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

Jesus criticized the Jews by saying they hear not (obey not) God's Word because they are not of God. They were of their father, the devil, and the lusts of their father they did (See John 8:44). So yeah. I really do not see Faith Alone-ism within the Scriptures (Unless of course you just isolate certain verses you want to see). For Belief Alone-ism goes contrary to everything Jesus and His followers taught. It also goes against basic morality, as well. Unless of course you care to explain how your belief lines up with the goodness of God and or morality.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to show me where I have contradicted the goodness of God and morality (say, for example, by promoting sin and wickedness?) Please quote me directly.

Thanks.

P.S. The ultimate “word of God” is Jesus Christ. He is the “Word made flesh.” We “obey Him just as He said, by believing on Him. (That part is all that is needed for salvation) The good works we are created unto, that is our discipleship.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God is indeed grieved by those who sin and grieves over the lost. Yet as I mentioned earlier YHWH chooses and His Will will be done.


He delayed their judgment as He did Israel and Judah. The judgment of Nineveh, a nation God did not have a covenant with, met their demise as we see in the book of Nahum.

The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
And the LORD will by no means leave
the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.
(Nahum 1:3)


And YHWH in His mercy and longsuffering spared them. The message from Jonah was the direct Words of God and as such the city populace responded to God acting through His words. You would have a point if Nineveh repented without a prophet to warn them.


Again, they repented after hearing the word of God. Same with us, we repent based on hearing the Gospel and God gives us a spirit of repentance.

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)


Making them repent as making a computer run a program is much different than a repentance according to the will of God. See above from 2 Corinthians 7:10


Not according to the apostle Paul:

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

Nor Jesus:

John 16: NASB
7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.



Yes Acts 17:30. That does not negate Jesus saying the Holy Spirit convicts of sin nor Paul telling us God leads us to repentance.


Well it's not silly as demonstrated in my previous post God chooses. God is Sovereign in His Gift of Salvation. Ask me to explain it, I can't, but that is what we have revealed...God is Sovereign and He chooses. Who am I as the formed clay to contend with the Potter.

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Notice what I bolded and underlined above. That says it all....It's for His Glory.

I am not sure you really get it. If God is the one who determines who is saved and who is not saved, then He cannot complain or be grieved by those who sin because He is the One who ultimately decided to leave them unsaved and in their sins. God could change their situation if He desires. For example: That would be like you being grieved over smelly trash in your house. Yet, you can take the trash out at any time. This is what does not make sense about your belief. It is not simply the God of the Bible that we read about.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Thank you for the false accusation. I will rejoice in God my Savior.

Ummm, that wasn’t addressed to you. And actually, that was an accusation made against me by another member, please go back and read.

Thanks.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps you would be kind enough to show me where I have contradicted the goodness of God and morality (say, for example, by promoting sin and wickedness?) Please quote me directly.

Thanks.

P.S. The ultimate “word of God” is Jesus Christ. He is the “Word made flesh.” We “obey Him just as He said, by believing on Him. (That part is all that is needed for salvation) The good works we are created unto, that is our discipleship.

Do you believe David was saved even while he was committing his sins of adultery and murder?
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Do you believe David was saved even while he was committing his sins of adultery and murder?

Yes. But what happened to him? How did God punish Him?
 
Upvote 0

112358

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2018
511
160
Southeast
✟43,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What does the word of God say He does when His children are disobedient? Does He “chastise” them? Or does He cast them out and ultimately cast them into Hell?
Depends on whether they repent and remain in the Light or not. If the former, He chastises and forgives. If the latter, better for them to have never known the truth. Sounds like hell to me.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Depends on whether they repent and remain in the Light or not. If the former, He chastises and forgives. If the latter, better for them to have never known the truth. Sounds like he’ll to me.

So, how does one go about breaking the “seal” of the Holy Spirit, which Scripture is clear we have until the day of redemption?

Also, which sins do you think are bad enough for such? I read in Scripture that even looking at someone in lust is adultery and hate is murder. So, who can be saved?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
"Fruits of the Spirit" which all true, born again, sealed believers have. :) He is the "guarantee" that we will inherit the Kingdom, and that we are the "purchased possession" of Christ (bought at a price)

Husband being faithful to his wife.?

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Gal 5:20-22)

Fruits of the Spirit

To "LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” (Luke 10:27)

Have joy in service and worship

Keeping peace with people

Being patient with everyone

Giving to the poor and helping those in need (kindness)

Doing all kinds of good deeds (goodness)

Being faithful to your wife/husband

Being humble (gentleness)

Being slow to anger (self-control)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amariselle
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I guess we don't disagree about good works or Who gets the glory for them, we seem to disagree on whether they play a part in saving us/keeping us saved.

Yes, that is the disagreement.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: amariselle
Upvote 0

112358

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2018
511
160
Southeast
✟43,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, how does one go about breaking the “seal” of the Holy Spirit, which Scripture is clear we have until the day of redemption?

Also, which sins do you think are bad enough for such? I read in Scripture that even looking at someone in lust is adultery and hate is murder. So, who can be saved?
By forsaking the Faith and returning to the filthy worldliness from whence they were called.

Not my call. His call. But I think this is an important point of discussion. Some people seem to think God is some kind of celestial score keeper, where we can be saved or not multiple times a day.

Christians struggle against the temptations with which everyone else struggles. Sometimes we make mistakes. Paul spoke at length of the internal conflict between spirit and flesh. But we persist. We get back up, or get each other back up, and carry on. But some don’t. They succumb and return to the world, abandoning the Faith wholesale. Those are the straying sheep in danger of condemnation.

It is the false idea that somehow the Spirit assumes control of us and prevents us from sinning that leads people astray. Because if they aren’t perfect (and none can be) then they must not have the Spirit. I don’t know anyone that is perfect. Do the just not have enough of the Spirit?
 
Upvote 0

MDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2017
1,127
511
48
Texas
✟59,701.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Faith plus nothing asserts that nothing we “do” has any bearing on our salvation. Yet faith/belief is something we “do”. Non sequitur. End of debate.
It doesn’t have any bearing nor merit towards your salvation. The fact that you believe your works have merit or bearing towards your salvation proves you are void of faith in Christ righteousness alone to justify. “Sola Fide” is anchored and grounded in “Sola Gratia”. All of salvation, including faith, is the result of being reborn spiritually and a gift of God by Gods Sovereign elective grace. Sola fide is saying that the grounds for “my” justification and salvation rest in Christ alone. This is what the believer lays hold upon by Gods grace and power. Christ alone is sufficient to save. So those who teach men’s works has any bearing in salvation, whether to gain or maintain it, are void of faith and deny the gospel of Christ that saves. Martin Luther said it best, “ If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.” That pretty much ends the debate. Judaizers preached basically the same thing you are and others on this thread are preaching
 
  • Winner
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
He surely is Lord of all who are saved. What I was trying to say is, we don't make Him Lord, He simply is Lord.

The first part is of course true, Jesus is Lord to all who are saved. The second part, again we are of different opinions. Jesus becomes our Lord, when we give our life to him. Until then he is Lord as having all power, but not Lord in our life. It's a decision on our part to give our whole life to him, and then God takes us in as his children, and Jesus becomes our Lord and master.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.