Deuteronomy 32:8 "the number of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL", "THE GODS" or "ANGELS" or "SONS OF GOD"?

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

Deuteronomy 32:8 "the number of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL", "THE GODS" or "ANGELS" or "SONS OF GOD"?

Deuteronomy 32:8 KJB (NIV!, NKJV, NASB) - "When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

Deuteronomy 32:8 ESV - "When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the SONS OF GOD."

Footnote: Compare Dead Sea Scroll, Septuagint; Masoretic Text - sons of Israel."
NRSV 1989 - " he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number OF THE GODS."

Dan Wallace and company's NET version actually says: "he set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of THE HEAVENLY ASSEMBLY."

The New Brenton Translation 2012 (based on the so called Greek Septuagint) reads - "he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of THE ANGELS OF GOD."

But wait! There's more scholarly shenanigans afoot. Now the NEW English Septuagint Version of 2014 has come out and it reads: "according to the number of DIVINE SONS." It doesn't even read like the OLD Septuagints!

Other modern bible versions that reject the Hebrew Masoretic text here and say "the sons OF GOD" rather than "the children OF ISRAEL" are the liberal RSV (which was the first bible version to follow this erroneous reading), while the later NRSV of 1989 said "according to the number of THE GODS". Dan Wallace's NET version (sort of), the critical text Common English bible 2011 "based on the number of THE GODS", The Voice 2012 and the ISV 2014 - "the number of THE CHILDREN OF GOD."

Likewise the Comic Book New Living Translation 2013 says: “according to the number of HIS HEAVENLY COURT.”

And then it footnotes: “Dead Sea Scrolls, which read the number of the sons of God, and Greek version, which reads the number of the angels of God; Masoretic Text reads the number of the sons of Israel.”

So, in other words, they rejected what is the clear reading of the Hebrew text and badly paraphrased a wrong text. And then they pass this stuff off as “the latest in scholarship.”
The Catholic Versions

Among the Catholic versions we see the usual confusion. The older Douay-Rheims of 1610 and the Douay of 1950 both followed the Hebrew Masoretic texts and said "the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL." but then the modern Catholic versions like the St. Joseph New American Bible of 1970 and the 1985 New Jerusalem bible both read - "the CHILDREN OF GOD".

Oh, but wait! Now the 2009 Catholic Public Domain Version AND The Revised Douay-Rheims Bible 2012 and both of them have gone back to the Hebrew reading of "according to the number of the children OF ISRAEL."!

Dan Wallace and company's goofy NET version actually says: "he set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of THE HEAVENLY ASSEMBLY."

This is similar to the equally ridiculous The Message of 2002 that says: "within boundaries under the care of DIVINE GUARDIANS." And the New Living Translation says: "according to the number in HIS HEAVENLY COURT."

The good Doktor Wallace then footnotes that the Masoretic text reads "sons of ISRAEL", and the Greek LXX reads "ANGELS of God" but that the DSS "fragment" reads "sons of GOD"; but being the Every Man For Himself Bible Critic that he is, he decided to translate it as "the HEAVENLY ASSEMBLY". This is how these guys operate, folks.
What was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls at this point is a very chopped up text with numerous missing words in just this verse alone. Even Dan Wallace refers to it as "a Qumran fragment".
The copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls by Abegg, Flint & Ulrich shows in brackets what is missing. The only parts found here would read: "When...their inherit...he separated...the children of GOD." That's it! And from this scrap of manuscript alone some modern versions have now rejected the time tested Hebrew Masoretic text and changed it.

The reading of "according to the number of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL" is the reading found in all Hebrew Masoretic texts as well as the Syriac Peshitta -"according to the number of the children OF ISRAEL", ALL Jewish translations like The Jewish Family Bible 1864, The Ancient Hebrew Bible 1907, the JPS 1917 (Jewish Publication Society), the 1936 Hebrew Publishing Company translation, The New Jewish Version 1985, the Hebrew Names Version 2014, the Complete Jewish Bible 1998, The Hebrew Transliteration Bible 2010 - "he set the bounds of the people according to the number of benai Yisra'el.", the Orthodox Jewish Bible 2011, The Natural Israelite Bible 2012, and the Judaica Press Tanach 2004 - "according to the number of THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

This Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible - "according to the number of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."
Deuteronomy 32:8 בהנחל divided עליון When the most High גוים to the nations בהפרידו their inheritance, when he separated בני the sons אדם of Adam, יצב he set גבלת the bounds עמים of the people למספר according to the number בני of the children ישׂראל׃ of Israel.

And The Jewish Virtual Library Complete Tanach 1994 - "according to the number of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."
D'varim (Deuteronomy): Chapter 32

Modern Greek Bible - “εστησε τα ορια των λαων κατα τον αριθμον των υιων Ισραηλ.” = “He set the boundaries of the people according to the number of THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.”

The Modern Hebrew Bible - בהנחל עליון גוים בהפרידו בני אדם יצב גבלת עמים למספר בני ישראל׃ = according to the number of the children of Israel

"according to the number of THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL"

Reading like the King James Bible are Wycliffe 1395, Tyndale 1534, the Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587, Darby 1890, Young's 1898, the Revised Version 1885, ASV 1901, Amplified Bible 1987, God's Word Translation 1995, the NASB 1995, NIV 1984, 2011 editions!, The Koster Scriptures 1998, The Context Group Version 2007, the Holman Standard 2009, the Jubilee Bible 2010, The Ancient Roots Bible 2010, The New European Version 2010 - "the number of THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL", The Hebraic Transliteration Scriptues 2010 - “according to the number of benai Yisrael.”, The Online Interlinear 2010 (André de Mol), the Names of God Bible 2011, the Orthodox Jewish Bible of 2011, The Work of God's Children Illustrated Bible 2011, the Lexham English Bible 2012, The Interlinear Hebrew-Greek Scriptures 2012 (Mebust), The World English Bible 2012, The Biblos Bible 2013 and The Modern English Version 2014 - "the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL".

The King James Bible is always right. Don't settle for a bogus "bible" version.
Will Kinney
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Sanoy · Jun 15, 2018

How could the nations be divided according to the number of the children of Israel, before Israel existed? And if it's divided by the number of Children of Israel why is it divided by 70?

συνείδησις · Jun 15, 2018

Interesting research. Since you think the KJV is always right I recommend making Zechariah 14:5 your next topic of study. Here are some key search words to expedite your study: zechariah + azal + yasul

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

συνείδησις said:
Interesting research. Since you think the KJV is always right I recommend making Zechariah 14:5 your next topic of study. Here are some key search words to expedite your study: zechariah + azal + yasul

Hi συνείδησις. Do you have a problem with Zechariah 14:5 as it stands in the KJB? Would you mind telling us what you think the problem is? Then we can take a look at it.
Thanks.

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

Sanoy said:
How could the nations be divided according to the number of the children of Israel, before Israel existed? And if it's divided by the number of Children of Israel why is it divided by 70?

Hi Sandy. Two things. First, that IS what the inspired Hebrew text says. Now, how you understand it may vary. The bible commentators have a lot of different opinions about what this verse means.

John Gill says this - "according to the number of the children of Israel: the sense is, that such a country was measured out and bounded, as would be sufficient to hold the twelve tribes of Israel, when numerous, and their time was come to inhabit it; and which, in the mean while was put into the hands of Canaan and his eleven sons to possess; not as their proper inheritance, but as tenants at will, until the proper heirs existed, and were at an age, and of a sufficient number to inherit; in which may be observed the wise disposition of divine Providence, to put it into the hands of a people cursed of God, so that to take it from them at any time could not have the appearance of any injustice in it; and their enjoying it so long as they did was a mercy to them, for so long they had a reprieve: now here was an early instance of the goodness of God to Israel, that he should make such an early provision of the land flowing with milk and honey for them, even before they were in being, yea, before their ancestors, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, existed; as early as the days of Noah;"

Matthew Poole is very similar in his explanation - "
He set the bounds of the people, i.e. he disposed of the several lands and limits of the people, so as he did reserve a convenient and sufficient place for the great numbers of the people of Israel, whom he designed to make as numerous as the stars of heaven. And therefore he so guided the hearts of several people, that the posterity of Canaan, which was accursed of God, Genesis 9:25-27, and devoted to ruin, should be seated in that country which God intended for the children of Israel, that so when their iniquities were ripe, and God’s time came, they might be rooted out, and the Israelites might come in their stead."

Sanoy · Jun 15, 2018

brandplucked said:
Hi Sandy. Two things. First, that IS what the inspired Hebrew text says. Now, how you understand it may vary. The bible commentators have a lot of different opinions about what this verse means.

John Gill says this - "according to the number of the children of Israel: the sense is, that such a country was measured out and bounded, as would be sufficient to hold the twelve tribes of Israel, when numerous, and their time was come to inhabit it; and which, in the mean while was put into the hands of Canaan and his eleven sons to possess; not as their proper inheritance, but as tenants at will, until the proper heirs existed, and were at an age, and of a sufficient number to inherit; in which may be observed the wise disposition of divine Providence, to put it into the hands of a people cursed of God, so that to take it from them at any time could not have the appearance of any injustice in it; and their enjoying it so long as they did was a mercy to them, for so long they had a reprieve: now here was an early instance of the goodness of God to Israel, that he should make such an early provision of the land flowing with milk and honey for them, even before they were in being, yea, before their ancestors, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, existed; as early as the days of Noah;"

Matthew Poole is very similar in his explanation - "
He set the bounds of the people, i.e. he disposed of the several lands and limits of the people, so as he did reserve a convenient and sufficient place for the great numbers of the people of Israel, whom he designed to make as numerous as the stars of heaven. And therefore he so guided the hearts of several people, that the posterity of Canaan, which was accursed of God, Genesis 9:25-27, and devoted to ruin, should be seated in that country which God intended for the children of Israel, that so when their iniquities were ripe, and God’s time came, they might be rooted out, and the Israelites might come in their stead."

Okay but the "inspired Hebrew text" is a thousand years after the inspired Greek text.

While "Children of Israel" is both anachronistic to the chronology, and surprising in quantity, "sons of God" actually fits right in to ANE belief of the division of the nations and the phrase "70 sons of God" found in Ugaritic material.

I understand the desire to want to distance ourselves from the idea of the existence of 'other gods' but the broad sense of '' other gods" that would result from affirming the LLX merely means angels. Elohim, for which we use the English term God merely means a class of being in Hebrew. The deceased Samuel is called an Elohim. So there is really no reason to distance ourselves from the original rendering.

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

Sanoy said:
Okay but the "inspired Hebrew text" is a thousand years after the inspired Greek text.

While "Children of Israel" is both anachronistic to the chronology, and surprising in quantity, "sons of God" actually fits right in to ANE belief of the division of the nations and the phrase "70 sons of God" found in Ugaritic material.

I understand the desire to want to distance ourselves from the idea of the existence of 'other gods' but the broad sense of '' other gods" that would result from affirming the LLX merely means angels. Elohim, for which we use the English term God merely means a class of being in Hebrew. The deceased Samuel is called an Elohim. So there is really no reason to distance ourselves from the original rendering.

Sanoy, since you obviously are your own authority, maybe you should just write your own bible version like so many others are doing. Of course, nobody else will agree with you all the time on your textual sources or your personal translation, but that's probably due to their not being as deeply spiritual and of such penetrating insight as you are.

But in these whacky daze, who knows? It just might sell like hotcakes and you can make a boat load of money. We can only hope, right?

συνείδησις · Jun 15, 2018

brandplucked said:
Hi συνείδησις. Do you have a problem with Zechariah 14:5 as it stands in the KJB? Would you mind telling us what you think the problem is? Then we can take a look at it.
Thanks.

That verse was corrupted in the Masoretic Text, which the KJV is translated from. A Hebrew word in that verse can mean 2 different things based on pronunciation, and the Masoretes used the pronunciation used in one of their traditions. The Septuagint has the correct rendering.

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

συνείδησις said:
That verse was corrupted in the Masoretic Text, which the KJV is translated from. A Hebrew word in that verse can mean 2 different things based on pronunciation, and the Masoretes used the pronunciation used in one of their traditions. The Septuagint has the correct rendering.

Well, συνείδησις, you didn't even go into specifics and tell us what you happen to think is wrong with the verse, but I can tell by your response here that you too, like so many others today, are clearly your own authority.

Maybe you can join all the others who are in the process of putting together their own bible versions for a world that has so long been pining for the true words of God to finally see the light of day. Ya think?

συνείδησις · Jun 15, 2018

brandplucked said:
Well, συνείδησις, you didn't even go into specifics and tell us what you happen to think is wrong with the verse, but I can tell by your response here that you too, like so many others today, are clearly your own authority.

Maybe you can join all the others who are in the process of putting together their own bible versions for a world that has so long been pining for the true words of God to finally see the light of day. Ya think?

Was just offering you a new subject to study since you did such an extensive job on this study.

Sanoy · Jun 15, 2018

brandplucked said:
Sanoy, since you obviously are your own authority, maybe you should just write your own bible version like so many others are doing. Of course, nobody else will agree with you all the time on your textual sources or your personal translation, but that's probably due to their not being as deeply spiritual and of such penetrating insight as you are.

But in these whacky daze, who knows? It just might sell like hotcakes and you can make a boat load of money. We can only hope, right?

I don't think my points should be dismissed through lightly mocking me. Why can't we approach Biblical meaning through reason and investigation?

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

Sanoy said:
I don't think my points should be dismissed through lightly mocking me. Why can't we approach Biblical meaning through reason and investigation?

συνείδησις said:
Was just offering you a new subject to study since you did such an extensive job on this study.

Zechariah 14:5 KJB - “And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains:...ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with THEE.”

ESV (RSV, NRSV, NIV, NASB, NET, Jehovah Witness NWT, all Catholic versions) - "Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with HIM.”

Lexham English Bible 2012 - “And Yahweh my God will come, and all the holy ones with HIM”.[a]

Footnotes: Zechariah 14:5 Hebrew “you”; LXX has “him”

The King James Bible translators were well aware of the reading "and all the saints with HIM" because this is the way the Bishops' bible along with Coverdale, The Great Bible and Matthew's bibles read. But they made a deliberate decision to go with the Hebrew reading instead, and like the Geneva Bible did, they went with "and all the saints with THEE."

Agreeing with the reading found in the King James Bible - "and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with THEE." are the Geneva Bible 1587 the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) of 1917, Hebrew Publishing Company bible 1936, the Judaica Press Tanach 2004, Webster's bible 1833, Lesser O.T. 1835, Julia Smith Translation 1855, The Jewish Family Bible 1864, The Revised English Bible 1877, the Revised Version 1885, ASV 1901, Youngs 1898, Darby 1890, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible 1902, The Ancient Hebrew Bible 1907, The New Jewish Version 1985, the World English Bible 2000, The Complete Tanach 2004 - “And the Lord, my God, shall come; all holy ones WITH YOU.”, Green’s Literal 2005, KJV 21st Century Version 1998, The Koster Scriptures 1998, the Complete Jewish Bible 1998, Third Millennium Bible 1998, The New European Version 2010, The Hebrew Transliteration Bible 2010 - “ADONAI (יהוה) my Elohim (אלהים) shall come, [and] all the Kedoshim with THEE.”, The Jewish Orthodox Bible 2011 - "and Hashem Elohai shall come, and kol Kadoshim (all the holy ones) with Thee [see Daniel 7:13-14].”, The Voice 2012, The International Standard Version 2014, The Hebrew Names Version 2014, The Far Above All Translation 2014, The Modern English Version 2014 and The Hebraic Roots Bible 2015.

The Jewish Virtual Library Complete Tanach 1994 - “and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with THEE.”

Book of Zechariah

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Matthew Henry, John Calvin and other Bible commentators have seen a reference here to God Himself and a prophetic reference to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown comment:- “Lord my God . . . with thee--The mention of the "Lord my God" leads the prophet to pass suddenly to a direct address to Jehovah. It is as if "lifting up his head" (Lu 21:28), he suddenly sees in vision the Lord coming, and joyfully exclaims, "All the saints with Thee!" So Isa 25:9. “

The Geneva Bible notes read: “Because they did not credit the Prophets words, he turns to God and comforts himself in that that he knew that these things would come, and says, "You, O God, with your angels will come to perform this great thing."

Matthew Henry comments: “The Lord my God shall come, shall come to the comfort of all that are his; for, "Blessed Lord, all the saints shall be with THEE, and it shall be their everlasting happiness to dwell in THY presence; and therefore come, Lord Jesus." The Lord my God shall come, shall come to the comfort of all that are his; for, "Blessed Lord, all the saints shall be with THEE, and it shall be their everlasting happiness to dwell in THY presence; and therefore come, Lord Jesus."

John Calvin notes: “All the saints WITH THEE (caps are mine). There seems to be here a kind of indignation, as though the Prophet turned himself away from his hearers, whom he observed to be in a measure prepared obstinately to reject his heavenly doctrine; for he turns his discourse to God.”

The Coffmann’s Commentary: ”And Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with THEE ..."Significantly Jesus Christ himself in the Matthew parallel made certain reference to the final judgment:

"And all the holy ones with THEE ..." "The holy ones are the angels." Many New Testament passages associate the "holy ones" or angels with the Second Coming of Christ, as in Matthew 13:41,49, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7.

"With thee ..." The change to the second person here is no problem. It is simply the manner in which the prophets wrote. To make the connection between this passage and Matthew 24 even more certain, it should be recalled that when Jesus spoke the remarkable words recorded in Matthew 24, that he did so sitting upon the mount of Olives, the very mountain so prominent in this passage (Matthew 24:3); add that to the fact of this passage in Zechariah's being one of only two places where the mountain is mentioned in the Old Testament (the other being Ezekiel 11:23), and named only in this place. From all this, it is clear enough that Jesus interpreted this passage as teaching the same thing that he taught in Matthew 24."

John Trapp Commentary - English Puritan - "And all the saints with THEE - The prophet, in a holy indignation at his hearers’ obstinace and untractableness, turns him thus to God; like as doth old Jacob, Genesis 49:18; and our blessed Saviour cried out with the people’s perverseness, Matthew 11:25-26."

Though the NKJV still reads: “The LORD my God will come, and all the saints with YOU.” YET it footnotes: “The ancient versions and some Hebrew manuscripts read HIM.”

Versions that do read “The Lord my God will come, and all the saints with HIM” are the RSV, (which footnotes that HIM comes from the Greek LXX, Syriac, Vulgate and Targum, but the Hebrew reads YOU), NIV, NASB, the NRSV, ESV, Holman Standard, NET, Jehovah Witness New World Translation and all Catholic Versions.

Sanoy · Jun 15, 2018

brandplucked said:
Zechariah 14:5 KJB - “And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains:...ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with THEE.”

ESV (RSV, NRSV, NIV, NASB, NET, Jehovah Witness NWT, all Catholic versions) - "Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with HIM.”

Lexham English Bible 2012 - “And Yahweh my God will come, and all the holy ones with HIM”.[a]

Footnotes: Zechariah 14:5 Hebrew “you”; LXX has “him”

The King James Bible translators were well aware of the reading "and all the saints with HIM" because this is the way the Bishops' bible along with Coverdale, The Great Bible and Matthew's bibles read. But they made a deliberate decision to go with the Hebrew reading instead, and like the Geneva Bible did, they went with "and all the saints with THEE."

Agreeing with the reading found in the King James Bible - "and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with THEE." are the Geneva Bible 1587 the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) of 1917, Hebrew Publishing Company bible 1936, the Judaica Press Tanach 2004, Webster's bible 1833, Lesser O.T. 1835, Julia Smith Translation 1855, The Jewish Family Bible 1864, The Revised English Bible 1877, the Revised Version 1885, ASV 1901, Youngs 1898, Darby 1890, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible 1902, The Ancient Hebrew Bible 1907, The New Jewish Version 1985, the World English Bible 2000, The Complete Tanach 2004 - “And the Lord, my God, shall come; all holy ones WITH YOU.”, Green’s Literal 2005, KJV 21st Century Version 1998, The Koster Scriptures 1998, the Complete Jewish Bible 1998, Third Millennium Bible 1998, The New European Version 2010, The Hebrew Transliteration Bible 2010 - “ADONAI (יהוה) my Elohim (אלהים) shall come, [and] all the Kedoshim with THEE.”, The Jewish Orthodox Bible 2011 - "and Hashem Elohai shall come, and kol Kadoshim (all the holy ones) with Thee [see Daniel 7:13-14].”, The Voice 2012, The International Standard Version 2014, The Hebrew Names Version 2014, The Far Above All Translation 2014, The Modern English Version 2014 and The Hebraic Roots Bible 2015.

The Jewish Virtual Library Complete Tanach 1994 - “and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with THEE.”

Book of Zechariah

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Matthew Henry, John Calvin and other Bible commentators have seen a reference here to God Himself and a prophetic reference to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown comment:- “Lord my God . . . with thee--The mention of the "Lord my God" leads the prophet to pass suddenly to a direct address to Jehovah. It is as if "lifting up his head" (Lu 21:28), he suddenly sees in vision the Lord coming, and joyfully exclaims, "All the saints with Thee!" So Isa 25:9. “

The Geneva Bible notes read: “Because they did not credit the Prophets words, he turns to God and comforts himself in that that he knew that these things would come, and says, "You, O God, with your angels will come to perform this great thing."

Matthew Henry comments: “The Lord my God shall come, shall come to the comfort of all that are his; for, "Blessed Lord, all the saints shall be with THEE, and it shall be their everlasting happiness to dwell in THY presence; and therefore come, Lord Jesus." The Lord my God shall come, shall come to the comfort of all that are his; for, "Blessed Lord, all the saints shall be with THEE, and it shall be their everlasting happiness to dwell in THY presence; and therefore come, Lord Jesus."

John Calvin notes: “All the saints WITH THEE (caps are mine). There seems to be here a kind of indignation, as though the Prophet turned himself away from his hearers, whom he observed to be in a measure prepared obstinately to reject his heavenly doctrine; for he turns his discourse to God.”

The Coffmann’s Commentary: ”And Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with THEE ..."Significantly Jesus Christ himself in the Matthew parallel made certain reference to the final judgment:

"And all the holy ones with THEE ..." "The holy ones are the angels." Many New Testament passages associate the "holy ones" or angels with the Second Coming of Christ, as in Matthew 13:41,49, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7.

"With thee ..." The change to the second person here is no problem. It is simply the manner in which the prophets wrote. To make the connection between this passage and Matthew 24 even more certain, it should be recalled that when Jesus spoke the remarkable words recorded in Matthew 24, that he did so sitting upon the mount of Olives, the very mountain so prominent in this passage (Matthew 24:3); add that to the fact of this passage in Zechariah's being one of only two places where the mountain is mentioned in the Old Testament (the other being Ezekiel 11:23), and named only in this place. From all this, it is clear enough that Jesus interpreted this passage as teaching the same thing that he taught in Matthew 24."

John Trapp Commentary - English Puritan - "And all the saints with THEE - The prophet, in a holy indignation at his hearers’ obstinace and untractableness, turns him thus to God; like as doth old Jacob, Genesis 49:18; and our blessed Saviour cried out with the people’s perverseness, Matthew 11:25-26."

Though the NKJV still reads: “The LORD my God will come, and all the saints with YOU.” YET it footnotes: “The ancient versions and some Hebrew manuscripts read HIM.”

Versions that do read “The Lord my God will come, and all the saints with HIM” are the RSV, (which footnotes that HIM comes from the Greek LXX, Syriac, Vulgate and Targum, but the Hebrew reads YOU), NIV, NASB, the NRSV, ESV, Holman Standard, NET, Jehovah Witness New World Translation and all Catholic Versions.

Could you refine the point you are trying to make. Bulk often has the opposite effect.

συνείδησις · Jun 15, 2018

brandplucked said:
Zechariah 14:5 KJB - “And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains:...ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with THEE.”

ESV (RSV, NRSV, NIV, NASB, NET, Jehovah Witness NWT, all Catholic versions) - "Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with HIM.”

The error is in the word flee, not thee. The LXX has blocked up/filled in, which is correct.

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol [Azal], it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

Sanoy said:
Could you refine the point you are trying to make. Bulk often has the opposite effect.

The Hebrew text reads as does the KJB and many others. The Hebrew text is not corrupt as the Vatican versions tell us it is.

If you are not a King James Bible only believer, you may well be a Christian, but by default you do not believe that any Bible in any language you can show us is now or ever was the complete and inerrant words of God.

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

συνείδησις said:
The error is in the word flee, not thee. The LXX has blocked up/filled in, which is correct.

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol [Azal], it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5

συνείδησις, this "correction" of yours is even whackier than the other one from "thee" to "him".

You really are your own authority, way out there on a limb all by yourself.

"In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25

Sanoy · Jun 15, 2018

brandplucked said:
The Hebrew text reads as does the KJB and many others. The Hebrew text is not corrupt as the Vatican versions tell us it is.

If you are not a King James Bible only believer, you may well be a Christian, but by default you do not believe that any Bible in any language you can show us is now or ever was the complete and inerrant words of God.

Ok well this KJVO "shut up and believe" approach does nothing to convince me that I should go with the Masoretic version over the Septuagint (which the New Testament authors quote from). Nor does it address the points I made regarding which interpretation better fits contextual history.

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

Sanoy said:
Ok well this KJVO "shut up and believe" approach does nothing to convince me that I should go with the Masoretic version over the Septuagint (which the New Testament authors quote from). Nor does it address the points I made regarding which interpretation better fits contextual history.

Hi Sanoy. You have bought into an urban myth about this so called Greek Septuagint thingy.

If nothing else, just read the short version part.
NO LXX - The Fictitious Use of the so-called Greek Septuagint.

http://brandplucked.webs.com/nolxx.htm

brandplucked · Jun 15, 2018

Scatterbrained Septuagint Silliness - Judges 16:13; 1 Samuel 14:41; 1 Samuel 17:4; 2 Samuel 7:16; 2 Samuel 13:21, 34; 2 Samuel 14:30; 1 Kings 5:17-18; 6:1; 1 Kings 10:22; Jonah 3:4; Ezekiel 8, 40, 45 examples

Scatterbrain Septuagint

Sanoy · Jun 15, 2018

brandplucked said:
Hi Sanoy. You have bought into an urban myth about this so called Greek Septuagint thingy.

If nothing else, just read the short version part.
NO LXX - The Fictitious Use of the so-called Greek Septuagint.

No LXX

And this is going to address the two specific points that I made? I clicked it, I'm not reading all that. If you have a counter point make it succinctly right here.

Deuteronomy 32:8 "the number of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL", "THE GODS" or "ANGELS" or "SONS OF GOD"?

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