Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

Douggg said:

Therefore, what hope do you have that by speaking against the rapture as a lie, that you would go with them who believe in it, should you happen to be wrong?

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Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf




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BABerean2 said:

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

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The initial few minutes of the video has a major flaw and a false claim that the Day of the Lord is a strict post tribulation event. The speaker is saying that the Day of the Lord doesn't begin until the end of 7 years, in order to justified the post trib theory.

What the speaker does take not into account is the world will be saying peace and safety - which certainly won't be at the end of the 7 years - at the time the Day of the Lord is triggered.

Back in the Tanach, the speaker draws upon passages that say the sun, moon, stars darkened before the Day of the Lord comes. What the speaker doesn't include is why those warnings are there in those Tanach passages. The Jews were looking, hoping for, the Day of the Lord because it is equated with the messianic age. But they were warned there was going to be a lead-in of really bad times.

The speaker doesn't take into account, the darkened of the sun, moon, stars are PART of the trouble times; not all of the things of those troubled times were given in those Tanach passages that will take before the messianic age part of the Day of the Lord.

In 1Thessalonians5, Paul did not mention the sun, moon, stars darkened - but the world saying peace and safety, then sudden destruction as the Day of the Lord will begin. The speaker is totally discounting what shatters the peace and safety. It is not the sun, moon, stars, being darkened. But years before then, when the perceived messiah, Antichrist, shatters the perceived messiah age that has the world saying peace and safety.

The Day of the Lord begins more than 3 years 8 months, thereabouts, before the darkening of the sun, moon, stars. The Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God - in 2Thessalonians2:3-4, also explained by Paul.

The video was made back in 2013.... out of date. The speaker doesn't understand nor did he explain why the world will be saying peace and safety at the time. He should have known, however, that at the worst part of the great tribulation the world will not be saying peace and safety - which is in 1thessalonians5 as what just precedes the day of the Lord.

The two things the speaker got right was that 1Thessalonians5 is a continuation of the rapture from chapter 4, and indicates when the rapture would take place. And the rapture is in 1Thessalonians5:10.

Bab2,

The trangression of desolation - triggers the Day of the Lord.
The abomination of desolation - triggers the great tribulation.

70th week begins with the confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant.
The person is the Antichrist, the world saying peace and safety
He suddenly commits the transgression of desolation - the Day of the Lord begins.
God has him killed, brought back to life, becomes the beast.
Image of the beast made, placed in the temple - the great tribulation begins.

Douggg said:

Bab2,

The trangression of desolation - triggers the Day of the Lord.
The abomination of desolation - triggers the great tribulation.

70th week begins with the confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant.
The person is the Antichrist, the world saying peace and safety
He suddenly commits the transgression of desolation - the Day of the Lord begins.
God has him killed, brought back to life, becomes the beast.
Image of the beast made, placed in the temple - the great tribulation begins.

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Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

During 167 BC Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue in the Jewish temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar.
Those who know why John 10:22 is in the Bible, would understand this fact.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner



Daniel 9:24 is found fulfilled in Acts of the Apostles 10:38, and Hebrews 10:16-18.

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.


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BABerean2 said:

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

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In Deuteronomy 31:9-13, it is not "about" 7 years that the Mt. Sinai covenant is to be confirmed but 7 years in the text.

The Jews, nor the world, were saying peace and safety at the time of the destruction of the temple and city. It was not sudden destruction to come up on them. They were in stress the entire time leading up to Jewish revolt wars.

Douggg said:

In Deuteronomy 31:9-13, it is not "about" 7 years that the Mt. Sinai covenant is to be confirmed but 7 years in the text.

The Jews, nor the world, were saying peace and safety at the time of the destruction of the temple and city. It was not sudden destruction to come up on them. They were in stress the entire time leading up to Jewish revolt wars.

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For some reason you must have missed the fact that based on Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, the New Covenant has made the Sinai Covenant "obsolete"...

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BABerean2 said:

For some reason you must have missed the fact that based on Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, the New Covenant has made the Sinai Covenant "obsolete"...

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I think you need to figure out in what way. The feast of tabernacles will be observed when Jesus has returned. It is in Zechariah 14.

Now for a change, go read Deuteronomy 31:9-13, see when the leaders of Israel are supposed to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 year, what feast day, for the benefit of future generations that weren't there to know anything.

Douggg said:

I think you need to figure out in what way. The feast of tabernacles will be observed when Jesus has returned. It is in Zechariah 14.

Now for a change, go read Deuteronomy 31:9-13, see when the leaders of Israel are supposed to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 year, what feast day, for the benefit of future generations that weren't there to know anything.

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Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

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Douggg said:

I think you need to figure out in what way. The feast of tabernacles will be observed when Jesus has returned. It is in Zechariah 14.

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Paul wouldn't likely agree.

Galatians 4
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

jgr said:

Paul wouldn't likely agree.

Galatians 4
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

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The Galatians - gentiles, who had now become Christians, were being mislead, as such, that they had to do the same things the Jews were required to do under the Mt Sinai covenant. Which Paul was saying was taking a giant step backwards.

Which is the case of any person who thinks by virtue of becoming a Christian - they have become Israel and/or a Jew.

In Zechariah 14, the observing the feast of tabernacles will be recognition that God took the Jews out of Egypt, lead them through the desert, living in make shift structures, until the second generation could enter the promised land - which God gave them forever. The entire world will have to send representatives to Israel, to acknowledge that God did all those things and fulfilled His promises to Israel..

Douggg said:

The Galatians - gentiles, who had now become Christians, were being mislead, as such, that they had to do the same things the Jews were required to do under the Mt Sinai covenant. Which Paul was saying was taking a giant step backwards.

Which is the case of any person who thinks by virtue of becoming a Christian - they have become Israel and/or a Jew.

In Zechariah 14, the observing the feast of tabernacles will be recognition that God took the Jews out of Egypt, lead them through the desert, living in make shift structures, until the second generation could enter the promised land - which God gave them forever. The entire world will have to send representatives to Israel, to acknowledge that God did all those things and fulfilled His promises to Israel..

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The Galatian church was the abode of the notorious Judaizers. Paul's message was for the whole church.

Paul said or implied nothing about Zechariah 14 here or anywhere else. His message was simple and direct -- the old observances were weak, beggarly, vestiges of bondage.

God's Son is the Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:1,2) and is Himself the fulfillment of the promises to Israel (Galatians 3:16). The entire world's only hope is to believe upon Him.

Biblewriter said:

Yes, all who share the faith of Abraham are his spiritual seed. But this cannot negate the very explicitly stated promises made to the ancient nations of Judah and Israel.

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Once again, you wrongly assume that God is going to create a separate Israel of the seed only which believing Gentiles will not be a part of. That idea is nowhere stated in God's Word. Exactly the opposite is stated, even by Apostle Paul:

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

How can a Gentile be "heirs according to the promise" if they are cast out away from that "promise"???

Just that question alone shows how ludicrous John Darby's doctrine of Dispensationalism is. Darby's theories of Dispensationalism were devised just to drum up support for the pre-trib rapture theory, which also is false.

Biblewriter said:

There is not even one promise of blessing in this world given to the church. You cannot cite even one.

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Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

Based on what you said there, is to call Apostle Paul a liar in the above Scripture.

Based on what you say, Gentiles cannot be "made nigh by the blood of Christ" in "the covenants of promise" God gave to Israel. That is to say Gentiles have no Salvation through Christ Jesus, if they do not inherit in the promises. That's what your false statement means.

Davy said:

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

Based on what you said there, is to call Apostle Paul a liar in the above Scripture.

Based on what you say, Gentiles cannot be "made nigh by the blood of Christ" in "the covenants of promise" God gave to Israel. That is to say Gentiles have no Salvation through Christ Jesus, if they do not inherit in the promises. That's what your false statement means.

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You are wresting both what I said, and what the scriptures you quoret said.

Davy said:

Once again, you wrongly assume that God is going to create a separate Israel of the seed only which believing Gentiles will not be a part of. That idea is nowhere stated in God's Word.

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Actually, the scriptures plainly each this, in both the Old testament and the New.

Davy said:

Just that question alone shows how ludicrous John Darby's doctrine of Dispensationalism is. Darby's theories of Dispensationalism were devised just to drum up support for the pre-trib rapture theory, which also is false.

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If that is the case, why was a fully developed Dispensationalism (less the pre-tribulation rapture) already being taught in England By Lewis Way more than five years before before Darby ever wrote anything? And why was an end time spiritual restoration of the Jews, along with their end tome return to their homeland, being insisted upon in England by William Lowth, more than a hundred years earlier than that?

jgr said:

Paul wouldn't likely agree.

Galatians 4
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

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Paul would not disagree with explicitly stated scripture.

Biblewriter said:

Paul would not disagree with explicitly stated scripture.

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Was he referring to explicitly stated scripture in those verses?

Biblewriter said:

If that is the case, why was a fully developed Dispensationalism (less the pre-tribulation rapture) already being taught in England By Lewis Way more than five years before before Darby ever wrote anything? And why was an end time spiritual restoration of the Jews, along with their end tome return to their homeland, being insisted upon in England by William Lowth, more than a hundred years earlier than that?

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Did either of them claim that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church?


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

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Biblewriter said:

If that is the case, why was a fully developed Dispensationalism (less the pre-tribulation rapture) already being taught in England By Lewis Way more than five years before before Darby ever wrote anything?

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Opinion. Citations?

Biblewriter said:

And why was an end time spiritual restoration of the Jews, along with their end tome return to their homeland, being insisted upon in England by William Lowth, more than a hundred years earlier than that?

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Because Bro. Lowth would not have known that Abraham is in all of us.

Mathematical basis of universal Abrahamic ancestry

Excerpt:

"As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”

The example used Charlemagne.

It would have been even more demonstrable if it had used Abraham.

Abraham is in all of us.

Even in those who cling to dispensationalism's racialized fallacies.

jgr said:

Opinion. Citations?

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I would take many posts to quote half of what I have.

In the year 1821 he first published ‘The Latter Rain,’ His main object in that paper was to prove from scripture the restoration of Israel, and the consequent glory in the land. His poem entitled, ‘Palingenesia,’ or ‘The World to Come,’ (Part of which is quoted below) appeared in 1824. Thoughts on the ‘Scriptural Expectations of the Church,’ by Basilicus, followed it in 1826.

In 1826, Lewis Way wrote:

“It will be readily admitted that a new aera commenced at the first appearance of Christ, and the promulgation of the Gospel, throughout the Roman Empire, the scriptural designation of which is ‘the fulness of time.’ This expression refers distinctly to the mission and personal office of our Lord himself: and the period which-thus commenced appears to be continued, without any marked interruption, to his second coming; the whole aera being spoken of in this way by himself, and characterized by his Apostles under the general title of ‘the last days,’ in distinction from sundry other times, as the Paradisaical, Patriarchal, or Mosaic dispensationa. But another aera seems to be expressly noticed, and it is specifically entitled ‘The dispensation (or Economy) of the fulness of times:’ under which, scattered parts will be gathered together; disjoined parts united in one great recapitulation of the whole mystery of God: when the detached and manifold gradations of the system hitherto in action will appear to have been working together towards one determinate issue, – the final scheme of man’s redemption in body and soul, as originally conceived and planned in the eternal counsels of Jehovah: when the whole creation, so long groaning and travailing in pain together under the corruption introduced by the Fall, shall be delivered by the power, and subjected to the dominion, of the Son of Man, the second Adam: when the earth, once cursed for the sake of man, shall be blessed again, renewed, and fitter for the habitation of the righteous: when the typical theocracy of the people shall be realized in the kingdom of Israel restored to the risen saints of the Most High: when ‘the Lord shall reign in Mount Zion, and before his ancients gloriously,’ during the time appointed of the Father.”

(“Thoughts on the Scriptural Expectations of the Christian Church,” by Lewis Way, London, 1826, pp. 30-31 in the 1828 ed.)

This, without a doubt, is the very essence of dispensationalism. But many insist that a doctrine is not true Dispensationalism unless it differentiates between Israel and the church. And some insist that it also requires a teaching that some will come to Christ after the end of the church period. So what did Lewis Way have to say about these things? First, as he tended to be rather wordy, it is necessary to make rather long quotations, just to actually see what he was saying.

Looking at what Way said in 1824, he clearly taught that the dead in Christ would arise and “the saints on earth” would be “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet their Lord in air” when Christ would descend “to judge the quick and dead.” He taught this as followed by a thousand year reign on earth by these saints, during which time the wicked would remain dead.

“The day of Christ’s appearance, and his reign
When with archangel voice, and with the trump
Of God, he shall Himself again descend
To judge the quick and dead. The dead in Christ,
Once quickened in their souls by faith in him,
Will then receive their bodies rais’d again,
And glorified, like that which he assum’d
When he appeared to Cleophas, made known
In breaking of the bread, and vanishing!
That white apparel, worn by those two men
Who spake of his return on Olivet,
Commission’d for the purpose; or the two
Transfigur’d with their Lord on tabor’s mount,
Who then appear’d in glory; having on
Not this vile body, seat of sin and shame,
But garments like their Lord, of purest white,
Such as no Fuller on earth could make,
Transparent as the light, – The saints on earth
Rapt in a whirlwind, as Elijah was,
In pledge of their translation; will ascend
Caught up together with them in the clouds
To meet their Lord in air. – The dead in sin
Dead, shall not live; deceased, shall not rise,
Until the thousand years are finished.
Blessed and holy they that shall have part
In that Anastasis! The second death
Hath lost all power over those elect
Made like the angels who maintain'd
Their first estate, and shine as sone of God,
Then manifested heirs by sitting down
As Priests of God, with Christ, upon his throne,
According to his promise unto them
Who overcame by faith. A thousand years,
Thus shall they reign with him, and thus on earth,
For temporal reign in heaven there is none,
And this will have an end; for end will come
When even Christ himself shall render up
This kingdom to the Father, and become
Subject to Him, and God be ALL IN ALL.”

(“Palingensia – the World to Come,” by Lewis Way, London, 1824, pp. 91-93)

But concerning the restoration of Israel, in that same work he spoke of those who “confin’d salvation to their own exclusive pale! Exemplifying thus their ignorance of other unaccomplished mystery.” He then went on to speak of the fact “That blindness, partial only, shall befall benighted Israel! – Till Gentile times draw to their end, and Gentile fullness come.” And then he added that “Then out of Zion will come forth again the Great Deliverer, and will turn again ungodliness from Jacob – written thus and sure as everlasting covenant concerning them, and sealed with that blood which cleanseth from all sin!” Thus, he was clearly teaching that the time when “the Great deliverer” would “turn again ungodliness from Jacob,” was after, not before, “out of Zion will come forth again the Great Deliverer.” That is after, not before the Lord comes in power and glory to punish the wicked. This makes the eventual conversion of “Jacob,” that is, Israel, after, not before, the time when the church will be gathered to Christ. For no interpretation of the timing of the rapture places it after the Lord has come in power and glory to punish the wicked.

The words he used to say this were:

“Great is that mystery, at sundry times
And divers manners manifest. The Word
Made flesh, and in the spirit justified,
Of angels seen, and unto Gentiles preach’d
And by the world believed on, receiv’d
Up into glory! Other part remains
Mysterious to the Gentile world at large
As once their first admission to the faith
And commonwealth of ancient Israel,
Was to the seed of Abrah’m; insomuch
That till the figurative sheet fell down
Full of all creatures – Peter scarce conceiv’d
A Gentile could receive the Holy Ghost!
How many that have stood in Peter’s place
And sat as they presume in Peter’s chair
Have held same partial doctrine! And confin’d
Salvation to their own exclusive pale!
Exemplifying thus their ignorance
Of other unaccomplished mystery
Which yet their true Apostle bids them know,
Lest self conceited wisdom puff them up,
That blindness, partial only, shall befall
Benighted Israel! – Till Gentile times
Draw to their end, and Gentile fullness come.
Then shall their fullness, as their fall before,
As their diminishing became, the riches
Of the Gentiles and the world.
Then out of Zion will come forth again
The Great Deliverer, and will turn again
Ungodliness from Jacob – written thus
And sure as everlasting covenant
Concerning them, and sealed with that blood
Which cleanseth from all sin! mysterious depth
Of wisdom! And of ways unsearchable
Past finding out! For who hath known the mind
Of God, or been his counsellor; save he,
The WONDERFUL, so call’d – the Prince of Peace?
Who saith ‘I will return unro my place
Till they acknowledge their iniquity
And seek me in affliction!’ They abide
As is written of them ‘Many days
Without a king, a prince, a sacrifice,
Without an image, ephod, terraphim.’
Is it not written also ‘Afterward
They shall return and seek the Lord their God
And their king David in their latter days?’”

(“Palingensia – the World to Come,” by Lewis Way, London, 1824, pp. 106-108)