Losing faith in "faith alone"

GodsGrace101 said:

My dear sir,
You're reason above is NOT why I posted the ENTIRE writing.
Please read it all and keep in mind what we were speaking of.
It mentions Paulists (or whatever they're called) only in the sense that some scripture is INCORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD... The article I posted is about...

John 3:36 and about the word OBEY in that scripture.
Bad catch.

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redleghunter said:

All of the modern versions use 'does not obey' or 'rejects.'

New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment."

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Study Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

New American Standard Bible
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Contemporary English Version
Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever.

Good News Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

International Standard Version
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

NET Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

New Heart English Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life, but whoever refuses to believe in the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Whoever is trusting in The Son, has The Eternal Life, and whoever disobeys The Son shall not see The Life, but the anger of God shall abide upon him.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, he will see God's constant anger."

New American Standard 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
He that believes in the Son has eternal life, and he that does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

King James 2000 Bible
He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

American King James Version
He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

American Standard Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Darby Bible Translation
He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

English Revised Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Webster's Bible Translation
He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Weymouth New Testament
He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.

World English Bible
One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Young's Literal Translation
he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

And frankly, it does not change a bit from the old rendering in the KJV. For he who disobeys we see has the wrath of God remain upon them. A child of God does not have the wrath of God remain on them.

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amariselle said:

Unfortunately that is not the “sense” of that source at all. The entire blog is all about discrediting Paul as a “false prophet” and an “antichrist” (who taught entirely contrary to Jesus).

This is why we must be careful with our sources.

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GodsGrace101 said:

You're missing a lot by not reading the ECF.

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GodsGrace101 said:

What makes you think their writings would NOT match the N.T. writings (since the N.T. wasn't around yet back then)?

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GodsGrace101 said:

They KNEW some of the Apostles or the persons that the Apostles taught.

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GodsGrace101 said:

If we can't trust them WHO can we trust?

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GodsGrace101 said:

The teachers of today, to which you ascribe, that teach that FAITH ALONE is all that is needed to stay saved when JESUS NEVER taught this and neither did any of the writers of the N.T.

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GodsGrace101 said:

I'm sad that this is all you got from that source.
It was actually about the Greek words BELIEVE and OBEY and how theologians believe that John 3:36 was incorrectly translated in the 1500's.

However, we get what we want to get from anything written.
Just as what happens with the bible.

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HatGuy said:

Given that this source quoted literally teaches that Paul was a false prophet, I've no idea why it should be trusted nor why it should be in this conversation.

If Strongs isn't a good enough source, then what about Thomas Oden? Oden devoted his life to finding the 'consensus' teaching in the church - early church fathers included. It's surprising when you see how strong this doctrine of being justified by faith was even BEFORE Luther.

At any rate, the source about obedience and faith being some kind of synonym is an erroneous source from the start. All generally reputable sources do not conflate the two ideas. Heck, not even the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church conflates the idea. Sure, the New Perspective on Paul is sure trying to bring faithfulness / allegiance to Christ as part of what faith means, but I would venture to say that not even they are going to this degree.

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redleghunter said:

Do you trust John?
1 John 2:17
Yes I do within context:

12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.



Do you trust Paul?
Romans 2:7
Of course again within the context of his words which the subject of chapter 2 is there is none righteous not a one. We are all condemned without Christ:

1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Do you trust James?
James 2:17
Sure...
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

Do you trust Peter?
1 Peter 1:16-17

Of course!
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

10As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.



Do you trust Jesus?
John 5:28-29
INDEED!

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


It's what you don't mention which stacks your post in the out of context heap of eisegesis.

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amariselle said:

Just so you're both aware (and anyone else who reads this) the source shared by @GodsGrace101 blatantly promotes the idea that Paul is an "antichrist". It has already been pointed out that sharing this source is a violation of forum rules.

I think we can do better than to promote and endorse such positions, and that we can be mature enough to have respectful and insightful conversations.

God bless.

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amariselle said:

I’ve answered that question already, repeatedly. We are indeed saved unto good works, but not by them, as Scripture tells us clearly.

We do good works as Jesus’ disciples, and such is our “reasonable service.”

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GodsGrace101 said:

“He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

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GodsGrace101 said:

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

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GodsGrace101 said:

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

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GodsGrace101 said:

“Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way.” (Second Clement, A.D. 150)

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amariselle said:

I don’t actually agree with Calvin on many points. All fallible teachings of men (or women) must be “tested” by the infallible, inspired word of God.



I’ve actually read some of the writings and I learned about them in college. However, I am not missing anything necessary for salvation or for growing in faith and sound doctrine. Scripture is entirely sufficient for that.



Actually, the NT writings do, for the most part, predate those of the “Early Church Fathers”. Also, some of the ECF writings do contradict Scripture.



That does not make their writings infallible or inspired. They are not on an equal level with the word of God. Plain and simple.



That is a very odd question. Perhaps we should let Scripture answer it:

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. - John 6:67-68



And which teachers would those be? Can you please show me where I quoted any “teacher of today”? (Or any other teacher or source besides Scripture?)



As I said, the writings of the “Early Church Fathers” are not infallible, inspired Scripture.

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GodsGrace101 said:

And YOU didn't bother to explain why the verses are incorrect.

Do you trust ALL the bible or just the words you like?

Take one scripture at a time and we'll go through them.
Maybe the writers didn't know what they were talking about?

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redleghunter said:

Good reading, loads of great homilies, but not inspired Holy Scriptures.


Considering the ECFs quote from all 27 NT books before there was a Latin Vulgate Bible, I think your history is incorrect.

Early Christian NT References


We only have a few of those apostolic father's writings. Yet again, although we can learn a lot about their views on doctrine, their writings are not Holy Spirit Inspired Holy Scriptures. Add to the fact after reading the pink and blue below I will have quite a few posts telling me these fathers said something different in a different letter, which immediately shows they were fallible humans and failed to harmonize their works.


The actual inspired texts of the OT and NT?

Considering the NT teaches we are justified by faith apart from anything else begs the term 'alone.' If I was standing in a room with no one else there, I would be alone. However, Justified by faith alone is not a Reformation made up term. There were ECFs who used it as well"


From a homily by Saint Basil the Great, bishop
(Hom. 20 De humiliate, 3: PG 31, 530-531)

Boast only of the Lord

The wise man must not boast of his wisdom, nor the strong man of his strength, nor the rich man of his riches. What then is the right kind of boasting? What is the source of man’s greatness? Scripture says: The man who boasts must boast of this, that He knows and understands that I am the Lord. Here is man’s greatness, here is man’s glory and majesty: to know in truth what is great, to hold fast to it, and to seek glory from the Lord of glory. The Apostle tells us: The man who boasts must boast of the Lord. He has just said: Christ was appointed by God to be our wisdom, our righteousness, our sanctification, our redemption, so that, as it is written, a man who boasts must boast of the Lord.

Boasting of God is perfect and complete when we take no pride in our own righteousness but acknowledge that we are utterly lacking in true righteousness and have been made righteous only by faith in Christ.


Monday, Week 3 - Office of Readings


Chrysostom does use 'alone' not once but twice in his homily on Acts chapter 15:

Do you mark how closely the trials succeed each other, from within, from without? It is well ordered too, that this happens when Paul is present, that he may answer them. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. Acts 15:2 And Paul does not say, What? Have I not a right to be believed after so many signs? But he complied for their sakes. And being brought on their way by the Church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. Acts 15:3 And observe, the consequence is that all the Samaritans also, learn what has come to the Gentiles: and they rejoiced. And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received of the Church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. Acts 15:4 See what a providence is here! But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together to consider of this matter.

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up and said unto them, Men and brethren, you know how that of old days God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the Gospel, and believe. Acts 15:5-7 Observe Peter from the first standing aloof (κεχωρισμένον) from the affair, and even to this time judaizing. And yet (says he) ye know. ch. 10:45; 11:2 Perhaps those were present who of old found fault with him in the matter of Cornelius, and went in with him (on that occasion): for this reason he brings them forward as witnesses. From old days, he says, did choose among you. What means, Among you? Either, in Palestine, or, you being present. By my mouth. Observe how he shows that it was God speaking by him, and no human utterance. And God, that knows the hearts, gave testimony unto them: he refers them to the spiritual testimony: by giving them the Holy Ghost even as unto us. Acts 15:8 Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9 From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision. For indeed they do not say all this only by way of apology for the Gentiles, but to teach (the Jewish believers) also to abandon the Law.

(NPNF1-11. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans - Christian Classics Ethereal Library) (Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans)

Chrysostom in his Homilies on the epistle of Romans once again makes it clear that it is faith alone:

Ver. 24, 25. Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness.

[...]

To declare His righteousness. What is declaring of righteousness? Like the declaring of His riches, not only for Him to be rich Himself, but also to make others rich, or of life, not only that He is Himself living, but also that He makes the dead to live; and of His power, not only that He is Himself powerful, but also that He makes the feeble powerful. So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He does also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores (κατασαπέντας) of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is declaring, that he has added, That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Doubt not then: for it is not of works, but of faith: and shun not the righteousness of God, for it is a blessing in two ways; because it is easy, and also open to all men. And be not abashed and shamefaced. For if He Himself openly declares (ἐ νδείκνυται) Himself to do so, and He, so to say, finds a delight and a pride therein, how do you come to be dejected and to hide your face at what your Master glories in? Now then after raising his hearers expectations by saying that what had taken place was a declaring of the righteousness of God, he next by fear urges him on that is tardy and remissful about coming; by speaking as follows:

[...]
(CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 7 on Romans (Chrysostom) Chrysostom Homily 7 on Romans)

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redleghunter said:

What you omit in your posts is who the wrath of God abides in when referring to verse 3:36. It's not those who believe at all.

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112358 said:

This is what you get from the context? "Severed from Christ"? really?

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redleghunter said:

Indeed. Here's the context:
Galatians 5: NASB

1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

It looks a though those who wanted to be circumcised to follow the Law (works thereof) were warned that they would have to keep the whole Law. They were being encouraged by some to believe in Christ AND do the works of the Law. Meaning being justified by law. Those seeking to be justified by the Law have truly fallen from grace. These verses actually firmly support saved by God's Grace Alone.

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GodsGrace101 said:

Unbelievable! You mean.....!

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redleghunter said:

Not inspired Scriptures

Not inspired Scriptures

Not inspired Scriptures

Most scholars don't even think Clement wrote this. Not inspired scriptures.

Nor is this inspired scriptures but shows some ECFs could actually read and exegete Holy Scriptures correctly:

More from St John Chrysostom Homily 7 on Romans:

Ver. 27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded, he says. By what law? Of works? Nay, but by the law of faith.

Paul is at great pains to show that faith is mighty to a degree which was never even fancied of the Law. For after he had said that God justifies man by faith, he grapples with the Law again. And he does not say, where then are the well doings of the Jews? Where their righteous dealing? But, where is then the boasting? so taking every opportunity of showing, that they do but use great words, as though they had somewhat more than others, and have no work to show. And after saying, Where then is the boasting? he does not say, it is put out of sight and has come to an end, but it is excluded, which word rather expresses unseasonableness; since the reason for it is no more. For as when the judgment has come they that would repent have not any longer the season for it, thus now the sentence being henceforth passed, and all being upon the point of perishing, and He being at hand Who by grace would break these terrors, they had no longer the season for making a plea of amelioration wrought by the Law. For if it were right to strengthen themselves upon these things, it should have been before His coming. But now that He who should save by faith had come, the season for those efforts was taken from them. For since all were convicted, He therefore saves by grace. And this is why He has come but now, that they may not say, as they would had He come at the first, that it was possible to be saved by the Law and by our own labors and well-doings. To curb therefore this their effrontery, He waited a long time: so that after they were by every argument clearly convicted of inability to help themselves, He then saved them by His grace. And for this reason too when he had said above, To declare His righteousness, he added, at this time. If any then were to gainsay, they do the same as if a person who after committing great sins was unable to defend himself in court, but was condemned and going to be punished, and then being by the royal pardon forgiven, should have the effrontery after his forgiveness to boast and say that he had done no sin. For before the pardon came, was the time to prove it: but after it came he would no longer have the season for boasting. And this happened in the Jews' case. For since they had been traitors to themselves, this was why He came, by His very coming doing away their boasting. For he who says that he is a teacher of babes, and makes his boast in the Law, and styles himself an instructor of the foolish, if alike with them he needed a teacher and a Saviour, can no longer have any pretext for boasting. For if even before this, the circumcision was made uncircumcision, much rather was it now, since it is cast out from both periods. But after saying that it was excluded, he shows also, how. How then does he say it was excluded? By what law? Of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the law of faith? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God's power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only. And in saying this he attempts to bring the Jew who has believed to act with moderation, and to calm him that has not believed, in such way as to draw him on to his own view. For he that has been saved, if he be high-minded in that he abides by the Law, will be told that he himself has stopped his own mouth, himself has accused himself, himself has renounced claims to his own salvation, and has excluded boasting. But he that has not believed again, being humbled by these same means, will be capable of being brought over to the faith. Do you see how great faith's preëminence is? How it has removed us from the former things, not even allowing us to boast of them?
(CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 7 on Romans (Chrysostom) Chrysostom Homily 7 on Romans)

And if the above seems like a fluke, Chrysostom double and triples down here:

'For the righteous,' says he, 'He made a sinner; that He might make the sinners righteous.' Yea rather, he said not even so, but what was greater far; for the word he employed is not the habit, but the quality itself. For he said not made [Him] a sinner, but sin; not, 'Him that had not sinned' only, but that had not even known sin; that we also might become, he did not say 'righteous,' but, righteousness, and, the righteousness of God. For this is [the righteousness] of God when we are justified not by works, (in which case it were necessary that not a spot even should be found,) but by grace, in which case all sin is done away. And this at the same time that it suffers us not to be lifted up, (seeing the whole is the free gift of God,) teaches us also the greatness of that which is given. For that which was before was a righteousness of the Law and of works, but this is the righteousness of God.
(Chrysostom Homily 11 on Second Corinthians http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220211.htm)

And here from Ephesians:

Ver. 8. For by grace, says he have you been saved.

In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise you too high, observe how he brings you down: by grace you have been saved, says he,

Through faith;

Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,

And that not of ourselves.

Neither is faith, he means, of ourselves. Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For how, says he, shall they believe, unless they hear? Romans 10:14 So that the work of faith itself is not our own.

It is the gift, said he, of God, it is not of works.

Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saves, but it is because God so wills, that faith saves. Since, how, tell me, does faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.

Ver. 9. That no man should glory.

That he may excite in us proper feeling touching this gift of grace. What then? says a man, Hath He Himself hindered our being justified by works? By no means. But no one, he says, is justified by works, in order that the grace and loving-kindness of God may be shown. He did not reject us as having works, but as abandoned of works He has saved us by grace; so that no man henceforth may have whereof to boast. And then, lest when you hear that the whole work is accomplished not of works but by faith, you should become idle, observe how he continues,

Ver. 10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Observe the words he uses. He here alludes to the regeneration, which is in reality a second creation. We have been brought from non-existence into being. As to what we were before, that is, the old man, we are dead. What we are now become, before, we were not. Truly then is this work a creation, yea, and more noble than the first; for from that one, we have our being; but from this last, we have, over and above, our well being.

(Chrysostom Homily 4 on Ephesians CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom))

Wow this guy sounds like Luther...correction St Paul....

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redleghunter said:

The verses you posted were not incorrect. They were just incorrectly and incompletely addressed.

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redleghunter said:

Look at the verse again. The ones who believe are not connected to the wrath abiding in them. It is those who reject Christ and don't obey.

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GodsGrace101 said:

1. I never said we are NOT saved by anything other than faith alone. This is known as justification. Apparently some do not like the word .. sanctification.
2. Scripture is true, but not all understand it. It must be too difficult to accept, I suppose.

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