Losing Salvation by Sinning?

Open Heart

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So, you are telling me that it is possible for the sinner described in Hebrews 6 to come to repentance, even though the text explicitly states that it is impossible for them to come to repentance. Thus, you place your particular desires concerning your God above the clear and unalterable word of God
Hebrews is speaking of the unforgivable sin, resisting the HS.

Obviously if one feels remorse and repents, one is being guided by the HS and the verse in Hebrews doesn't apply. We have seen this happen even with serious sins such as adultery, embezzlement, even murder and apostasy.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Virtually every human alive has a will and uses it all of the time. Perhaps some severely mentally handicapped individuals are unable to exercise their wills, but they may have a will.

The question comes down to how free a person's will is. There are some people who believe that humans are born with a pure soul untainted by sin in any form and that sin resides within the social environment of the individual. That was the prevalent thought in the twentieth century. The theory was that because humans are good, it would only be a matter of time and some effort before society became good and all the problems of society would disappear. That included religion, which was considered a nuisance, at best, and a serious peril at worst because it led people to see themselves as sinners.

The result was, of course, World War I, the Great Depression, and World War II, all of which combined resulted in our present state of affairs, which seems to be none too rosy.

So, my question to you is - are people born sinners or are they born innocent and pure? If they are born innocent and pure why do they use their free wills to become sinners?
Sometimes I'll ask a question, like I did with you, and I get all kinds of answers except to the question. Why is that?

I asked you to show me where, in the entire bible, was free will taken away from us.

You're talking about philosophy in your reply. I'm not talking about philosophy, I'm talking about theology. I agree that socially we were supposed to get better and better, but as Christians we know very well that this is not going to happen due to the nature of man. The sin nature.

So now you ask a question back to me without ever answering mine!

Here's the answer to yours:
Man is born with the affects of original sin. He is born with a sin nature. The sin nature TENDS toward evil.

We have free will to make moral choices, not only to decide what to have for breakfast. Adam and Eve were given free will and it was NEVER taken away.

So, do you believe we have free will? If not, when was it taken away?
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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As I mentioned elsewhere, there's a difference between living a lifestyle of sin and committing a particular act of sin. I bring this out from the Greek grammar used in 1John. See my study guides on 1John for more elaboration if you like.
Which still doesn't explain how you understand the fact that those who have been saved can live a lifestyle of sin and still be saved.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Sometimes I'll ask a question, like I did with you, and I get all kinds of answers except to the question. Why is that?

I asked you to show me where, in the entire bible, was free will taken away from us.

You're talking about philosophy in your reply. I'm not talking about philosophy, I'm talking about theology. I agree that socially we were supposed to get better and better, but as Christians we know very well that this is not going to happen due to the nature of man. The sin nature.

So now you ask a question back to me without ever answering mine!

Here's the answer to yours:
Man is born with the affects of original sin. He is born with a sin nature. The sin nature TENDS toward evil.

We have free will to make moral choices, not only to decide what to have for breakfast. Adam and Eve were given free will and it was NEVER taken away.

So, do you believe we have free will? If not, when was it taken away?

I apologize for not answering your question. I also share your frustration when people fail to answer my, usually direct, questions.

My answer is that there is no place in the Bible where free will was taken from man, nor is there any place in the Bible where the term "free will" is ever used. It is foreign to the Bible, even as nuclear physics is foreign. I would no sooner use the Bible as a textbook on nuclear physics than I would use it as a philosophical treatise on the free will of mankind.
 
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bcbsr

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Which still doesn't explain how you understand the fact that those who have been saved can live a lifestyle of sin and still be saved.
Apparently you weren't listening. It is not possible for those born of God to live a lifestyle of sin due to the nature of regeneration, as John stated, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9
 
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GodsGrace101

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I apologize for not answering your question. I also share your frustration when people fail to answer my, usually direct, questions.

My answer is that there is no place in the Bible where free will was taken from man, nor is there any place in the Bible where the term "free will" is ever used. It is foreign to the Bible, even as nuclear physics is foreign. I would no sooner use the Bible as a textbook on nuclear physics than I would use it as a philosophical treatise on the free will of mankind.
Pretty confusing.
What I believe you're saying is that free will was never given to man?
Is this correct?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Pretty confusing.
What I believe you're saying is that free will was never given to man?
Is this correct?

It depends on what is meant by free will. A solid argument can be made that Adam and Eve, being innocent of sin, had a will that was entirely free and capable of choosing good or evil. When they chose to sin they became sinners. All of their descendants were born with their sinful nature. Thus, David in Psalms 14 and 53 emphatically describes the sinfulness of all mankind, which is a theme picked up by Paul in Romans, especially chapter 3.

On the other side of the argument there are those who maintain that all humans are born innocent of sin, like Adam and Eve, and exercise their free wills and become sinners, so that all mankind has chosen to become sinners. There is no scriptural support for that argument.
 
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GodsGrace101

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It depends on what is meant by free will. A solid argument can be made that Adam and Eve, being innocent of sin, had a will that was entirely free and capable of choosing good or evil. When they chose to sin they became sinners. All of their descendants were born with their sinful nature. Thus, David in Psalms 14 and 53 emphatically describes the sinfulness of all mankind, which is a theme picked up by Paul in Romans, especially chapter 3.

On the other side of the argument there are those who maintain that all humans are born innocent of sin, like Adam and Eve, and exercise their free wills and become sinners, so that all mankind has chosen to become sinners. There is no scriptural support for that argument.
I continue to hear beliefs that are brand new to me!
How could anyone be born innocent of sin like Adam and Eve were if every denomination I know of understands and teaches that Adam fell and caused ALL mankind to fall and we are born with the affects of that fall.

This is what free will mean IN THE BIBLE --- not philosophically.

Free Will -- The ability to make moral choices.

So do you believe we have the free will to choose to obey God or to choose to disobey Him?
 
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bbbbbbb

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I continue to hear beliefs that are brand new to me!
How could anyone be born innocent of sin like Adam and Eve were if every denomination I know of understands and teaches that Adam fell and caused ALL mankind to fall and we are born with the affects of that fall.

This is what free will mean IN THE BIBLE --- not philosophically.

Free Will -- The ability to make moral choices.

So do you believe we have the free will to choose to obey God or to choose to disobey Him?

Here in the United States there are liberal Protestant denominations which deny the sinfulness of mankind. I once heard a Presbyterian minister agonize in a sermon over the possibility of evil in this world, finally concluding that evil might exist because George Bush was President.

Please provide biblical verses which define free will and we can proceed from that basis. It is not enough to make an assertion without providing the basis for the assertion.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Here in the United States there are liberal Protestant denominations which deny the sinfulness of mankind. I once heard a Presbyterian minister agonize in a sermon over the possibility of evil in this world, finally concluding that evil might exist because George Bush was President.

Please provide biblical verses which define free will and we can proceed from that basis. It is not enough to make an assertion without providing the basis for the assertion.
Well, let's see...

Free will is spoken of in
Leviticus 22:18
18“Speak to Aaron and to his sons and to all the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘Any man of the house of Israel or of the aliens in Israel who presents his offering, whether it is any of their votive or any of their freewill offerings, which they present to the LORD for a burnt offering—


and in other scripture that refers to free will offerings. IOW, these are offerings that are not part of the 10% but are given of a person's own FREE WILL. This is found in many other verses, btw. For example, Leviticus 22: 21, 23 chapt 23:38
Numbers 15:3, 29:39
2 Cronicles 31:14

Please see Philemon 1:14
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Then we have the many, many places in both the O.T. and the N.T. where man is given a choice. If I have a choice, it means I have free will to choose between two options.

Genesis 2:16-17 Adam had the choice to eat or not from the tree. He freely chose to eat of it -- God did not stop him.

Exodus 22:1 IF a man steals an ox (he could choose not to)

Deuteronomy 8:19 IF they ever forgot the Lord and went after other gods...this means it was their choice to go to other gods.

Deuteronomy 30:19 God set life and death before Israel, He told them to choose life.

Isaiah 1:18-19 God said "come, let us reason together".
God said "IF you CONSENT and obey"... this is a choice.

Mathew 23:37 Jerusalem was not WILLING....

Hebrews 11:24-25 Moses makes a choice.

Revelation 3:20 Jesus says "IF anyone opens the door...".
One must choose to open the door.

And so many other verses...they could not all be listed.

I've already said that the biblical definition of free will is the freedom we have to decide for ourselves a moral choice that we are able to make with no outside coercion.

Now you show me when and how free will was taken away from us in the N.T. or in the O.T..
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Apparently you weren't listening. It is not possible for those born of God to live a lifestyle of sin due to the nature of regeneration, as John stated, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9
And you aren't listening to what I am saying.

We continue to disagree on this and I feel sorry for you. You must find it really difficult to hide those sins from the people around you. You know, the ones that John tells you you are lying about. The ones that Paul says everyone does.

You may have a regenerated life, but it is not one that prevents you from sinning. Every letter that is written in the New Testament is to people who still struggle with sin on an ongoing basis. Some of them highlight huge sins (think of the seven churches in Asia).

Against that you have,err... one verse, out of context and contradicting the remainder of scripture when it does so.

It is you who needs to explain how this one verse seems to overturn the rest of the New Testament, rendering most of it meaningless. And instead all you do is quote the same verse over and over and over again as though that explains it all. It does not.

I'm not going to switch my views on that basis and your certainly not going to get a PhD in Theology by repeating the same verse ad-infinitum without explaining how it fits in.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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I continue to hear beliefs that are brand new to me!
How could anyone be born innocent of sin like Adam and Eve were if every denomination I know of understands and teaches that Adam fell and caused ALL mankind to fall and we are born with the affects of that fall.
Actually, it is generally taught by the church, but could be argued against theologically.

Primarily that babies are born neutral and that they get contaminated by sin because that is the prevailing emphasis of their parents/siblings/peers etc.

The world is sinful and it gradually corrupts the innocent.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Well, let's see...

Free will is spoken of in
Leviticus 22:18
18“Speak to Aaron and to his sons and to all the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘Any man of the house of Israel or of the aliens in Israel who presents his offering, whether it is any of their votive or any of their freewill offerings, which they present to the LORD for a burnt offering—

and in other scripture that refers to free will offerings. IOW, these are offerings that are not part of the 10% but are given of a person's own FREE WILL. This is found in many other verses, btw. For example, Leviticus 22: 21, 23 chapt 23:38
Numbers 15:3, 29:39
2 Cronicles 31:14

Please see Philemon 1:14
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Then we have the many, many places in both the O.T. and the N.T. where man is given a choice. If I have a choice, it means I have free will to choose between two options.

Genesis 2:16-17 Adam had the choice to eat or not from the tree. He freely chose to eat of it -- God did not stop him.

Exodus 22:1 IF a man steals an ox (he could choose not to)

Deuteronomy 8:19 IF they ever forgot the Lord and went after other gods...this means it was their choice to go to other gods.

Deuteronomy 30:19 God set life and death before Israel, He told them to choose life.

Isaiah 1:18-19 God said "come, let us reason together".
God said "IF you CONSENT and obey"... this is a choice.

Mathew 23:37 Jerusalem was not WILLING....

Hebrews 11:24-25 Moses makes a choice.

Revelation 3:20 Jesus says "IF anyone opens the door...".
One must choose to open the door.

And so many other verses...they could not all be listed.

I've already said that the biblical definition of free will is the freedom we have to decide for ourselves a moral choice that we are able to make with no outside coercion.

Now you show me when and how free will was taken away from us in the N.T. or in the O.T..

Thank you. Once again we seem to be talking past each other. As I originally stated, and have repeated numerous times, it all depends on how one defines the term "free will". The common definition is -

The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Do you agree with this definition?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Thank you. Once again we seem to be talking past each other. As I originally stated, and have repeated numerous times, it all depends on how one defines the term "free will". The common definition is -

The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Do you agree with this definition?
Well b, we could go on forever and ever discussing what free will is. This is a tactic some take when they can't answer to specific verses. I've posted the verses, now you exegete them.
They clearly speak of free will and choice.

Anyone reading along that does not have the mentality of a calvinist understands what free will is. No need to explain it many different times.

So, free will is in the bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
Jesus spoke of free will. He said Jerusalem was not willing to come to Him. That means that either could have, or not. Willingness is a choice word which has to do with having the free will to be willing to do something.

In the Garden, Jesus said "Not my WILL, but Yours be done".
If Jesus was incarnated as a human being, like we are, and HE said He has a will, then surely we must have one too.

Now, if you care to respond to the above, the conversation could continue..otherwise it's over right now.

Let me just say that I know it's difficult for you to continue with it because FREE WILL IS in the bible and it cannot be denied.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Actually, it is generally taught by the church, but could be argued against theologically.

Primarily that babies are born neutral and that they get contaminated by sin because that is the prevailing emphasis of their parents/siblings/peers etc.

The world is sinful and it gradually corrupts the innocent.
I find this interesting. I've learned that we're all born with the sin nature, because of the fall ofman. So we all suffer from the affects of Adam's fall.

Even babies. Two year olds are not very nice people!! They have to have everything their way and ego and pride have already set in. From where does it come? They fight with each other...James speaks to this.

However, they are not held responsible for Adam's sin... this would be imputing another's sin to them and the bible does not teach this. We are all responsible for our own sin.

WHEN the child becomes of a responsible age, THEN he is responsible for his sin. Sin must be understood and how it grieves God.

There's scripture for the above, but since it's off topic I don't think we should get into a discussion about this, but I do find it interesting how some churches teach innocence at birth.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I find this interesting. I've learned that we're all born with the sin nature, because of the fall ofman. So we all suffer from the affects of Adam's fall.

Even babies. Two year olds are not very nice people!! They have to have everything their way and ego and pride have already set in. From where does it come? They fight with each other...James speaks to this.

However, they are not held responsible for Adam's sin... this would be imputing another's sin to them and the bible does not teach this. We are all responsible for our own sin.

WHEN the child becomes of a responsible age, THEN he is responsible for his sin. Sin must be understood and how it grieves God.

There's scripture for the above, but since it's off topic I don't think we should get into a discussion about this, but I do find it interesting how some churches teach innocence at birth.

Now you see that not every church teaches that people are born sinners. At least we have this in common. Now I will address your post to me.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Well b, we could go on forever and ever discussing what free will is. This is a tactic some take when they can't answer to specific verses. I've posted the verses, now you exegete them.
They clearly speak of free will and choice.

Anyone reading along that does not have the mentality of a calvinist understands what free will is. No need to explain it many different times.

So, free will is in the bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
Jesus spoke of free will. He said Jerusalem was not willing to come to Him. That means that either could have, or not. Willingness is a choice word which has to do with having the free will to be willing to do something.

In the Garden, Jesus said "Not my WILL, but Yours be done".
If Jesus was incarnated as a human being, like we are, and HE said He has a will, then surely we must have one too.

Now, if you care to respond to the above, the conversation could continue..otherwise it's over right now.

Let me just say that I know it's difficult for you to continue with it because FREE WILL IS in the bible and it cannot be denied.

Indeed, I concede that free will is in the Bible. Love is in the Bible, as well, but it can mean anything from divine love, brotherly affection or lust. People have used "love" to develop some very strange theologies.

I posted a definition of free will for you. If we cannot agree on a definition then it will come down to you telling me what free will means in each verse and I might disagree because you define it differently. Definitions do matter.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Indeed, I concede that free will is in the Bible. Love is in the Bible, as well, but it can mean anything from divine love, brotherly affection or lust. People have used "love" to develop some very strange theologies.

I posted a definition of free will for you. If we cannot agree on a definition then it will come down to you telling me what free will means in each verse and I might disagree because you define it differently. Definitions do matter.
The Bible explains itself with very little help.
What did you think of Philemon 1:14?
 
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bbbbbbb

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The Bible explains itself with very little help.
What did you think of Philemon 1:14?

12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.


Voluntary is a fine synonym in this case, do you not agree?
 
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