Losing faith in "faith alone"

discipler7 · Jun 14, 2018

112358 said:
Whatever Adam relayed to Eve, she obviously knew she was supposed to leave the fruit alone, and she obviously knew that God established that command. But she didn't. So...

Eve did not see or hear God up until Eve & Adam's Original Sin was found out by God. This might have a bearing on how Eve was easily deceived by Satan.
....... In comparison, Adam saw and heard God, and saw the miraculous creation of God = Adam likely had more faith in God than Eve.

Satan, disguised as a friendly talking serpent/snake(like a fellow creature), was very cunning to approach Eve when she was alone and did not approach Adam first.

redleghunter · Jun 14, 2018

HatGuy said:
Given that this source quoted literally teaches that Paul was a false prophet, I've no idea why it should be trusted nor why it should be in this conversation.

Indeed. To balance out the internet cowboy blog interpretation we were offered, which was anti-Pauline, I will offer something a bit more scholarly for all to examine. From John Gill:

John 3:36:
He that believeth on the Son,.... Who is a proper object of faith and trust; which, if he was not truly and properly God, he would not be: and this is to be understood not of any sort of faith, a temporary, or an historical one; but of that which is the faith of God's elect, the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; by which a man sees the Son, goes unto him, ventures and relies upon him, and commits himself to him, and expects life and salvation from him; and who shall not be ashamed and confounded; for such an one

hath everlasting life; he has it in Christ his head, in whom he believes; he has a right unto it through the justifying righteousness of Christ, and a meetness for it by his grace; he has it in faith and hope; he has the beginning of it in the knowledge of Christ, and communion with him; he has some foretastes of it in his present experience; and he has the earnest and pledge of it in his heart, even the blessed Spirit, who works him up for this selfsame thing:

and he that believeth not the Son; that does not believe Christ to be the Son of God, or Jesus to be the Messiah; or rejects him as the Saviour; who lives and dies in a state of impenitence and unbelief:

shall not see life; eternal life; he shall not enter into it, and enjoy it; he shall die the second death. Very remarkable are the following words of the Jews (b) concerning the Messiah, whom they call the latter Redeemer:

"whosoever believes in him "shall" live; but he that believes not in him shall go to the nations of the world, and they shall kill him.''

But the wrath of God abideth on him; as the sentence of wrath, of condemnation, and death, and the curse of the law were pronounced upon him in Adam, as on all mankind, it continues, and will continue, and will never be reversed, but will be executed on him, he not being redeemed from it, as his final unbelief shows; and as he was by nature a child of wrath, as others, he remains such; and as the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men, it comes upon the children of disobedience, and remains there; it hangs over their heads, and lights upon them, and they will be filled with a dreadful sense of it to all eternity. The Syriac and Arabic versions render it, "shall abide upon him"; so some copies.

(b) Midrash Ruth, fol. 33. 2.

John 3 Gill's Exposition

From Expositor's Greek Testament:

John 3:36. ὁ πιστεύων … ἐπʼ αὐτόν. Christ has been represented as Sovereign, commissioned with supreme powers, especially for the purpose of saving men and restoring them to God. Hence “he that believeth on the Son hath eternal life”. He who through the Son finds and accepts the Father has life in this very vision and fellowship of the Supreme; cf. John 17:3. But “he that refuses to be persuaded,” lit. “he that disobeyeth”. Beza points out that in N.T. there is a twofold ἀπείθεια, one of the intellect, dissenting from truth presented, as here and in Acts 14:2; the other of the will and life, see Romans 11:30. But will enters into the former as well as the latter. ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ, the wrath of God denotes “the fixed and necessary hostility of the Divine nature to sin”; what appears in a righteous man as indignation; and also the manifestation of that hostility in acts of retributive justice. This is the only place in the Gospel where it occurs; but in Revelation 6:16, we have “the wrath of the Lamb”; also John 16:19, “the wine of the fury of His wrath”; also John 14:10, John 11:18, John 19:15. In Paul “the coming wrath” is frequently alluded to; as also “the day of wrath,” “the children” or “vessels” of wrath. On the refuser of Christ the wrath of God, instead of removing from him, abides, μένει; not, as Theophylact reads, μενεῖ, “will abide”.

John 3 Expositor's Greek Testament

discipler7 · Jun 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
All of the modern versions use 'does not obey' or 'rejects.'

New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment."

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Study Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

New American Standard Bible
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Contemporary English Version
Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever.

Good News Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

International Standard Version
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

NET Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

New Heart English Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life, but whoever refuses to believe in the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Whoever is trusting in The Son, has The Eternal Life, and whoever disobeys The Son shall not see The Life, but the anger of God shall abide upon him.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, he will see God's constant anger."

New American Standard 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
He that believes in the Son has eternal life, and he that does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

King James 2000 Bible
He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

American King James Version
He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

American Standard Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Darby Bible Translation
He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

English Revised Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Webster's Bible Translation
He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Weymouth New Testament
He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.

World English Bible
One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Young's Literal Translation
he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

And frankly, it does not change a bit from the old rendering in the KJV. For he who disobeys we see has the wrath of God remain upon them. A child of God does not have the wrath of God remain on them.

Fyi,

JOHN.3:16-18 =
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

redleghunter · Jun 14, 2018

Afra said:
Yes, God does not elect us because of works that we have performed. And we are justified by works, and not by faith alone, just as Scripture states.

Yet God's children were elected before the foundations of the world before one work was completed:

Ephesians 1: NASB
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

15For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

redleghunter · Jun 14, 2018

Afra said:
Did you ever provide the requested verse from Philemon? If you did I must have missed it.

Must have missed it:

25The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

112358 · Jun 14, 2018

discipler7 said:
Eve did not see or hear God up until Eve & Adam's Original Sin was found out by God. This might have a bearing on how Eve was easily deceived by Satan.
....... In comparison, Adam saw and heard God, and saw the miraculous creation of God = Adam likely had more faith in God than Eve.

Satan, disguised as a friendly talking serpent/snake(like a fellow creature), was very cunning to approach Eve when she was alone and did not approach Adam first.

Eve gets a bad rap I think, as if Adam or any of the rest of us might have acted (or shall I say have acted) differently. I'm still unsure as to the point of this line of discussion.

redleghunter · Jun 14, 2018

discipler7 said:
Fyi,

JOHN.3:16-18 =
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Yes and for some reason your post reminded me of a terrible movie which had a good scene in it.

112358 · Jun 14, 2018

amariselle said:
"Fallen from grace" in context, did not mean they had lost their salvation. Read carefully. Jews had come in and caused confusion and had "hindered" these believers in their liberty in Christ (and they truly were free in Christ, though some sought to trip them up).

So, please show me where in those verses Paul writes that these saved believers are now destined for hell. (Unsealed, unsaved, unborn again, passed back from life to death etc.)

Ok. I thought "fallen from grace" meant "fallen from grace", but whatever. Sounds a lot like "that's not water" throughout the New Testament. Maybe it's just me. It says what it says.

amariselle · Jun 14, 2018

112358 said:
Ok. I thought "fallen from grace" meant "fallen from grace", but whatever. Sounds a lot like "that's not water" throughout the New Testament. Maybe it's just me. It says what it says.

You need proper context. It is potentially dangerous to isolate a verse or two and not look at the surrounding verses, the entire chapter, or, even better, the entire Epistle.

You still haven’t answered my question though, where did Paul write that these saved believers had lost their salvation and were headed to Hell?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 14, 2018

amariselle said:
It's strange you would ask that question? Are you truly saying you don't know or understand why Christ died on the cross?

Yes, in Scripture, through careful study and prayer.

So, where else should we look if the Bible isn't sufficient?

Again, I do not understand the distinction you are trying to make. Also, I am sorry you think you're "wasting" your time as you are the one that keeps replying to my comments when I think we've finally just decided to move on.

I get it, we do not agree. Through many many posts, this is what it comes down to:

You believe that it is by the grace of God that we are saved, but that we must work to stay saved.

I believe that it is by the grace of God that we are saved, period. Good works follow once we are saved, and because we are saved, but not to keep us saved.

I guess people are going to need to search the Scriptures to see which position is correct.

Is it grace? Or is it works? What does the Bible say?

I didn't mean that I'm wasting my time talking to you. If I thought that, I wouldn't write.

I meant that it's a waste of time explaining the Penal Substitution theory and the Grace Theory of atonement to you because you wouldn't believe me anyway.

And where you find out about it is from studying theology and reading what different theologians think and write about.

Unless you specifically ask to know the difference between the two, I won't post it ... also because it's rather off topic.

As to your idea that we are saved by grace through faith, which is true, and THEN we do works because we are saved and not to keep us saved...why not answer this simple question:

For whatever reason we do the works AFTER salvation...
are we REQUIRED to do them?

112358 · Jun 14, 2018

amariselle said:
You need proper context. It is potentially dangerous to isolate a verse or two and not look at the surrounding verses, the entire chapter, or, even better, the entire Epistle.

Truer words have never been typed.

amariselle said:
You still haven’t answered my question though, where did Paul write that these saved believers had lost their salvation and were headed to Hell?

Right there where he said "you have become estranged from Christ", "you have fallen from grace." That's what it means. Still waiting for your alternate definition.

amariselle · Jun 14, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I didn't mean that I'm wasting my time talking to you. If I thought that, I wouldn't write.

I meant that it's a waste of time explaining the Penal Substitution theory and the Grace Theory of atonement to you because you wouldn't believe me anyway.

And where you find out about it is from studying theology and reading what different theologians think and write about.

Unless you specifically ask to know the difference between the two, I won't post it ... also because it's rather off topic.

As to your idea that we are saved by grace through faith, which is true, and THEN we do works because we are saved and not to keep us saved...why not answer this simple question:

For whatever reason we do the works AFTER salvation...
are we REQUIRED to do them?

I’ve answered that question already, repeatedly. We are indeed saved unto good works, but not by them, as Scripture tells us clearly.

We do good works as Jesus’ disciples, and such is our “reasonable service.”

amariselle · Jun 14, 2018

112358 said:
Truer words have never been typed.

Right there where he said "you have become estranged from Christ", "you have fallen from grace." That's what it means. Still waiting for your alternate definition.

Indeed, because they had been “hindered” and “troubled”, by false teaching, but they had not lost their salvation.

You have not provided any evidence that Paul ever told these saved, born again and sealed believers that they were now unsaved, unborn again, unsealed and destined for Hell.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 14, 2018

amariselle said:
And just to note: although the "Early Church Fathers" may have much of historical significance to say, they did not write inspired Scripture. Therefore their writings are fallible and must be tested by the word of God, just as everyone else's.

So, I don't really care how they viewed the cross and Christ's sacrifice. If it disagrees with Scripture, I will reject it.

Was John Calvin inspired? Why do some churches follow HIS teaching?

You're missing a lot by not reading the ECF.

What makes you think their writings would NOT match the N.T. writings (since the N.T. wasn't around yet back then)?
They KNEW some of the Apostles or the persons that the Apostles taught.

If we can't trust them WHO can we trust?

The teachers of today, to which you ascribe, that teach that FAITH ALONE is all that is needed to stay saved when JESUS NEVER taught this and neither did any of the writers of the N.T.

“He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way.” (Second Clement, A.D. 150)

source: http://safeguardyoursoul.com/what-early-church-fathers-said-about-eternal-security/

LoveofTruth · Jun 14, 2018

godenver1 said:
I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

By faith we enter into the grace that saves. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith and when he is in our heart God is now working in us to make us perfect unto EVERY good work through Jesus Christ

Ephesians 3:17 KJV
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love"

Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV
"20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

So as we abide in faith in Christ he abides in us and is working and e live and move in the new man, not the old man. The flesh and old man can do nothing. In Christ we can do all things. So faith is the vital part on our part to have Christ dwell in our heart. This is the fight of faith and to abide in that faith to continue in that faith steadfast unto the end. For as we do this we overcome the world and this is through the power that now worketh in us. It is not by meritous works of man or meritous ordinances or sacraments or other aspects that many try to add to the gospel. It is not by works of righteousness which we have done.

When we are in faith and Christ is formed in us and working in us we will show forth that faith and the works of God in our lives. We are created in Christ Jesus unto this very things and he will destroy the works of the enemy in our lives and the flesh will die as we walk in the Spirit.

"4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?(1 John 5:4,5 KJV)

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Colossians 1:23 KJV
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

So truly, as the body without the spirit is dead so a professing believer without God working in him is dead also. If a man says he has faith and does not have God working in him then his faith is vain, or empty. But if a believer has true faith then Christ dwells in his heart and he will show forth that life of Christ and have God working in him

Philippians 2:13 KJV
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

John 15:5 KJV
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

Philippians 4:13 KJV
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

GodsGrace101 · Jun 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
You agree with the author of your quoted above piece? That the words of Jesus are at odds with His apostle Paul?

I mean the "Paulinist" barb was enough but you should really check your resources before posting them here against site rules.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums

My dear sir,
You're reason above is NOT why I posted the ENTIRE writing.
Please read it all and keep in mind what we were speaking of.
It mentions Paulists (or whatever they're called) only in the sense that some scripture is INCORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD... The article I posted is about...

John 3:36 and about the word OBEY in that scripture.
Bad catch.

redleghunter · Jun 14, 2018

amariselle said:
You need proper context. It is potentially dangerous to isolate a verse or two and not look at the surrounding verses, the entire chapter, or, even better, the entire Epistle.

You still haven’t answered my question though, where did Paul write that these saved believers had lost their salvation and were headed to Hell?

Indeed. Here's the context:
Galatians 5: NASB

1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

It looks a though those who wanted to be circumcised to follow the Law (works thereof) were warned that they would have to keep the whole Law. They were being encouraged by some to believe in Christ AND do the works of the Law. Meaning being justified by law. Those seeking to be justified by the Law have truly fallen from grace. These verses actually firmly support saved by God's Grace Alone.

redleghunter · Jun 14, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
My dear sir,
You're reason above is NOT why I posted the ENTIRE writing.
Please read it all and keep in mind what we were speaking of.
It mentions Paulists (or whatever they're called) only in the sense that some scripture is INCORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD... The article I posted is about...

John 3:36 and about the word OBEY in that scripture.
Bad catch.

Yes but your source promotes conflicts between Christ and His apostle Paul. Consider the source.

amariselle · Jun 14, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Was John Calvin inspired? Why do some churches follow HIS teaching?

I don’t actually agree with Calvin on many points. All fallible teachings of men (or women) must be “tested” by the infallible, inspired word of God.

GodsGrace101 said:
You're missing a lot by not reading the ECF.

I’ve actually read some of the writings and I learned about them in college. However, I am not missing anything necessary for salvation or for growing in faith and sound doctrine. Scripture is entirely sufficient for that.

GodsGrace101 said:
What makes you think their writings would NOT match the N.T. writings (since the N.T. wasn't around yet back then)?

Actually, the NT writings do, for the most part, predate those of the “Early Church Fathers”. Also, some of the ECF writings do contradict Scripture.

GodsGrace101 said:
They KNEW some of the Apostles or the persons that the Apostles taught.

That does not make their writings infallible or inspired. They are not on an equal level with the word of God. Plain and simple.

GodsGrace101 said:
If we can't trust them WHO can we trust?

That is a very odd question. Perhaps we should let Scripture answer it:

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. - John 6:67-68

GodsGrace101 said:
The teachers of today, to which you ascribe, that teach that FAITH ALONE is all that is needed to stay saved when JESUS NEVER taught this and neither did any of the writers of the N.T.

And which teachers would those be? Can you please show me where I quoted any “teacher of today”? (Or any other teacher or source besides Scripture?)

GodsGrace101 said:
“He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way.” (Second Clement, A.D. 150)

source: http://safeguardyoursoul.com/what-early-church-fathers-said-about-eternal-security/

As I said, the writings of the “Early Church Fathers” are not infallible, inspired Scripture.

112358 · Jun 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
These verses actually firmly support saved by God's Grace Alone.

This is what you get from the context? "Severed from Christ"? really?

Losing faith in "faith alone"

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Jesus Never Fails

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Well-Known Member

Jesus Never Fails

Jesus Never Fails

Well-Known Member

Christ builds His church from within us

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Jesus Never Fails

Well-Known Member

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